Editorial Yet another CRPG genre editorial at GameSpot

[Crazy Tuvok]

It is not that fucking complex, but yeah there are monsters with resistances. Gasp. I cannot express with enough emphasis how much I prefer this to "here is your big fucking sword +20 of Doom - times fer y'all to start wacking them thar monsters". Besides I rather like a system wherein you can fuck with the players a bit no matter how tough they are. That is one reason I always liked Rust Monsters. Of course I'm an asshole.

 

[Sarkile]

Ok, so if DR is so low that it doesn't matter then there's no point to the system.

I never said DR didn't matter. Back to the werewolf, the DR is 10. Sure, it'll be significantly more difficult for the fighter to deal with the werewolf, it's certainly manageable to take out without silver weapons with decent tactics. And in 3.5, I haven't seen DR larger than 15, so even if you're unprepared you'll always have a chance.

Not to mention how dex warriors already get screwed against DR, while STR warriors could pretty much always just ignore it.

Without a careful selection of PrCs, weren't dex fighters always pretty gimped?

 

[Dhruin]

There is not going to be any 'big push' for NWN2. Atari doesn't even have a fucking marketing department at the time of this writing. They didn't even show it at the E3.

And you know that's the reason it wasn't shown at E3 because...?

 

[Sarvis]

<b>Crazy Tuvok</b>

It's not that it's overly complex, it's that it's just too much fucking tedious bookkeeping.

<b>Sarkile</b>

10 is a lot of damage in D&D. Longsword's what 1d6? That means you need, yes NEED, 18 strength to even hurt the monster. So yeah, your average munchkin barbarian will be fine, anyone who wanted to roleplay a more complex personality needs to spend time doing special quests and obtaining just the right weapon... which when we're talking about the video game world will probably end up being somehting you have no proficiency with. Happened to me in ToEE with the wherewolves, you needed silver and there was only one silver weapon I had found so far. Actually arrows, and I only had one character who used bows...

Without a careful selection of PrCs, weren't dex fighters always pretty gimped?

Pretty much, yeah. One of the things I've always hated about D&D.

 

[RGE]

The D20 (specifically DnD) is an obvious target for "omigod everything that is wrong with RPGs" but it is a damn good system ...

Levels, classes and 'XP for killing' are bad things in my book. But the reason I quit DMing D&D was all the stats that I had to look up all the time. Attributes, saves, attack bonus, AC, HP, initiative, skills and all the little modifications to stats. Creating NPCs by the rules became a chore, and not preparing them in advance meant that I'd have to fall back on my trusted 'roll 2D6 to gauge success/failure'-method for resolving conflicts. Maybe I should just stick to those two D6's in the future.

 

[Sarkile]

[quote="Sarvis"Longsword's what 1d6? [/quote]
d8 actually. The crit range is 19-20 as well, so there's a pretty decent chance you'll crit at some point in the fight. If this is the character's main weapon, we could say that it's +2, and he should at least have a 16 in the relevant ability score. So that's 1d8+5 with a 10% chance of getting a critical threat for double damage. Yes, it hurts to not have a silver weapon, but it doesn't kill you. And this is ignoring all other tactical considerations you have in D&D.

 

[Sarvis]

It's onl d8 against medium creatures. I honestly have no idea if a werewolf is medium or not, but there ARE small were-creatures right? So does that make a small one vastly more dangerous than a large one?

10% chance of crit is pretty small, and I'm not sure there's a whole lot of tactics out there to increase damage. Power strike comes to mind, but that's about it. Flanking just gives a hit bonus doesn't it?

 

[Shagnak]

Longsword's what 1d6?

1d8 d00d :wink: (against all creatures - I'm not certain that size has anything to do with it anymore - at least my 3rd ed player manual doesnt mention it )

That means you need, yes NEED, 18 strength to even hurt the monster.

Don't forget the importance of critical hits. On a 19-20 with the broadsword, better with some other weapons like the Scimitar (18-20). And if you choose the right feats that critical range can increase as well, and earlier feats can increase your damage.

In ye olde AD&D you could hit werewolves etc with a magic weapon OR silver. Have things changed? I still play pnp D&D on occasion, but we play in a kinda "steam-punk" milieu that is obviously short of a trillion different damage resistances (i.e. not Forgotten Realms).

Edit:
Fuck im too slow and all this has been mentioned just above. Oh well, I'll just stay out of it now.

 

[kris]

The worst unrealism with D20 and most roleplayig systems is that being injuried don't affect you. you could be on 1 hit point left of 100 and still fight like you where unhurt, while you instead should barerly be able to lift your hand.

 

[Shagnak]

In our campaign, realistic stuff like critical effects and injury have been implemented. Our DM has basically got a bunch of the better rules (including mana-based magic as well as combat efffects) from various expansions and melded them in.
It works nicely, much better than the vanilla rules.

So, essentially I guess that means we didn't think much of the AD&D rules and set out to "fix" them. Sarvis for teh win.

 

[Sarkile]

It's 1d8 against all creatures. Flanking allows for sneak attacks if you have a rogue char. Trips, AoO, etc. allow you more attacks hence more chances for a crit.

 

[Spazmo]

I'm not even particularly sure what you're whining about, Sarvis. Basically, some monsters have DR to make them tougher--big deal. Most monstes with DR are just [so much]/magic, which most adventurers ought to be able to handle. And mages don't get an unfair advantage because as many if not more creatures get spell resistance, which will COMPLETELY negate a spell if it works. As for monsters with fancy DR like cold iron or silver... well, if your DM (or the game's designer) shits enemies at you that you're just not at all ready to handle and doesn't offer you the chance to retreat and prepare properly (or, heck, reload in the case of a CRPG)... he's just a dick, which is hardly the fault of the game rules.

 

[Sarvis]

1d8 d00d :wink: (against all creatures - I'm not certain that size has anything to do with it anymore - at least my 3rd ed player manual doesnt mention it )

I usually go by the D20 stuff available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) since I don't like 3E that much (3.5 even less) and refuse to buy it. But it lists different damages for small and medium creatures for all weapons.

In ye olde AD&D you could hit werewolves etc with a magic weapon OR silver. Have things changed?

Yes, that's my complaint. Now you NEED silver to hurt a werewolf. Magic will not do, just silver. So a +5 broadsword is still pretty ineffective against a werewolf.

 

[Sarkile]

Except for the +5 damage you're hitting the werewolf for, which combined with the probability that your primary stat will be pretty high by then will mean that the werewolf will be mush pretty quickly. Like one round quick.

 

[Shagnak]

But it lists different damages for small and medium creatures for all weapons.

Err, no, isn't that damage for small and medium versions of the weapons?

The column labeled “Dmg (S)” is for Small weapons. The column labeled “Dmg (M)” is for Medium weapons

Read it properly d00d! :wink:

 

[Sarvis]

Sarkile:

By then? Define "by then." Pretty sure you hit the werewolves in ToEE by around level 4, maybe 5.

Shagnak:

Oh. :blush:

Thought that was against small and medium creatures. Heh...

 

[Spazmo]

I usually go by the D20 stuff available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) since I don't like 3E that much (3.5 even less) and refuse to buy it. But it lists different damages for small and medium creatures for all weapons.

First, the SRD IS D&D 3.5. Second, as Shagnak said, those damage numbers listed are for small and medium versions of the weapon. A human--medium sized creature--uses a medium sized longsword (usually) at 1d8 damage. A halfling, a small creature, would have to use a small longsword at 1d6, or he could use a medium longsword two handed. Third... you still don't have a point. Werewolves have a special quality that makes them tough to kill. This is part of their abilities and contributes to their level of power. What's the difference between werewolves having DR and say, an illithid having psionic powers? ogad the illithid's mind blast is a will save--fighters are being discriminated against!

 

[Sarkile]

By "by then" I meant by the time you have a +5 weapon. Even if it's a +5 longsword given to a level 3 goon, you still do 1d8 +8 damage, with the possibility of a critical. If landed a critical against it it could still be a 1 round killl.

 

[Sarvis]

I usually go by the D20 stuff available online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) since I don't like 3E that much (3.5 even less) and refuse to buy it. But it lists different damages for small and medium creatures for all weapons.

First, the SRD IS D&D 3.5. Second, as Shagnak said, those damage numbers listed are for small and medium versions of the weapon. A human--medium sized creature--uses a medium sized longsword (usually) at 1d8 damage. A halfling, a small creature, would have to use a small longsword at 1d6, or he could use a medium longsword two handed. Third... you still don't have a point. Werewolves have a special quality that makes them tough to kill. This is part of their abilities and contributes to their level of power. What's the difference between werewolves having DR and say, an illithid having psionic powers? ogad the illithid's mind blast is a will save--fighters are being discriminated against!

The point is that if you are going to be facing any variety of creatures you now have to carry around something like 11 different weapons to cover all the possible resistances.

It's tedious and annoying.

 

[Sarkile]

The point is that if you are going to be facing any variety of creatures you now have to carry around something like 11 different weapons to cover all the possible resistances.

Except you don't, unless your party really fucking sucks.

 

[Spazmo]

Right... except like I said, in that case the DM or designer is fucked out of his gourd. And you still don't have a good point. What if there's a flying creature in there somewhere? What, now my fighter has to carry a bow?! DISCRIMINATION! I should just be able to hit everything with my sword. In fact, everything should die if I blink at it! No thinking, no challenge, no problem for Sarvis.

 

[Shagnak]

In ye olde AD&D you could hit werewolves etc with a magic weapon OR silver. Have things changed?

Yes, that's my complaint. Now you NEED silver to hurt a werewolf. Magic will not do, just silver. So a +5 broadsword is still pretty ineffective against a werewolf.

You mean silver to bypass the dmg resistance - okay, yeah, I shoulda remembered it worked like that now. Now that I think about it I have come across it (in games and pnp), but I guess the old AD&D rules are still much more firmly imbedded in my brain, and like I said we haven't really seen many such creatures in the current campaign.

Oh. :blush:

Thought that was against small and medium creatures. Heh...

Don't worry, looks like I need to brush up on the rules too
(Lucky our DM is a rules lawyer, saves me from having to think too much)

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Different DR's are really more fun to me. And if you are losing a fight badly because your attacks just aren't hurting the beastie enough, that's should be your cue to escape. I get rather tired of campaigns where everything is perfectly structured for you to mow down horde after horde of enemies with some degree of challenge but no real doubt you're ever going to lose and therefore no reason not to plan on marching up and pounding everything in sight until it stops moving. Where the players cuss at you for memorizing Dimension Door instead of another Ice Storm. I prefer to have an actual reason to keep a Plan B in reserve.

 

[Shagnak]

And if you are losing a fight badly because your attacks just aren't hurting the beastie enough, that's should be your cue to escape. I get rather tired of campaigns where everything is perfectly structured for you to mow down horde after horde of enemies with some degree of challenge but no real doubt you're ever going to lose and therefore no reason not to plan on marching up and pounding everything in sight until it stops moving.

Aye, I agree. The campaign I'm in is definitely does not favour taking the direct and violent approach all the time, and sometimes you really pay if you take on something in an unwise/unplanned fashion and refuse to back off. There is often another way of doing things.
My character is a scholarly pious type (no not a cleric, think more like priest arcanist), and believe me, he does a lot of "escaping" when the shit goes down.
Battle cry: "RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!"

Our sessions seem to involve more talking (you know, that role-playing thing) than combat and looting n shit.

 

[Jed]

In ye olde AD&D you could hit werewolves etc with a magic weapon OR silver. Have things changed? I still play pnp D&D on occasion, but we play in a kinda "steam-punk" milieu that is obviously short of a trillion different damage resistances (i.e. not Forgotten Realms).

What are you guys using for source material for your campaign?