4X ZEPHON - post-apocalyptic 4X by Warhammer 40K: Gladius developer

[InD_ImaginE]

so you people kept preaching how gladius was a great game. this seems to be gladius just without the wh40k license, and you say it's shit.

Nah the thing with Gladius is that the faction variety is awesome and you actually play and tech differently if you are playing different races

This game is the same game but with only 1 faction. Basically it's Gladius if all the factions are various flavour of Imperial.Guard

The different faction leaders right now are not enough to differentiate how you will play

While the game is basically Gladius with better UI, from replayabilty and variety perspective it certainly feels worse than Gladius

 

[Desman]

so you people kept preaching how gladius was a great game. this seems to be gladius just without the wh40k license, and you say it's shit.

Gladius is a pretty decent game even without the 40k stuff. It does one thing really really well (war).
It's probably the best 4x if you like to make units and destroy everything (overwatch, heroes, ranged combat, transport blabla etc...)
But the main problem is that a true 4x should not be just warfare (it's a 40k thing tbh) so Zephon absolutly need to support other playstyles.

They have to take a good look at SMAC, Fall from Heaven 2 and all the interesting Civs mods, Warlock, Fallen Enchantress etc... and try to implement some of the good ideas of those games. They absolutly know how to do good combat but what about everything else ? Gladius tech tree and city building is a joke for exemple and it is barely better in Zephon demos so far.
If they are smart it could easily be one of the best 4X ever made. Just imagine something like a modern SMAC with Gladius combat

 

[Desman]

The only real advantage that I see is a better reflection of logistics and controlled withdrawals versus "loser gets annihilated". But it's nowhere near enough to make up for the fact that, looking at the genre in its entirety, games with separate tactical layer are way more fun and better on average, at least when it comes to combat.

I used to think like that too but nowadays i feel that "the tactical combat" (in AoW for exemple) ends up being a boring mini game most of the time and the only reason to not auto resolve 95% of the fights is just to save units. Gladius is the best formula imo. The real question is could you make Gladius combat even better without 1UPT ? I feel like with some limits for super units it could make infantry more relevant late game. Also blast weapons could easily prevent the stacks of doom.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I won't be giving my opinion on nuciv-like carpet of doom combat in muh 4X games again, but combat in the good AoW games is anything but boring lol. In fact, it eats most most modern dedicated tactical games for breakfast. And most dedicated crpgs when it comes to possible builds, combos etc as well.

 

[Desman]

I won't be giving my opinion on nuciv-like carpet of doom combat in muh 4X games again, but combat in the good AoW games is anything but boring lol. In fact, it eats most most modern dedicated tactical games for breakfast. And most dedicated crpgs when it comes to possible builds, combos etc as well.

I should have clarified i'm mostly talking about AoW 3.
The system itself isn't bad, my main gripes are the small reused maps and the fact that your AI opponent is overmatched most of the time (i.e: not very challenging once you know what you are doing), so most of the fights look like trash mob encounters in an Rpg (lot of samey boring mini fights).

Just to be clear i still think AoW3 is a good game and i had something like 100 hours of good fun with it but i still prefer no separate tactical layer when it is well done like in Gladius.
I have a bit the same problem with the HoMM games tbh.

It probably becomes different when you get serious about pvp or even challenging solo scenarios tho.

 

[Galdred]

The only real advantage that I see is a better reflection of logistics and controlled withdrawals versus "loser gets annihilated". But it's nowhere near enough to make up for the fact that, looking at the genre in its entirety, games with separate tactical layer are way more fun and better on average, at least when it comes to combat.

I used to think like that too but nowadays i feel that "the tactical combat" (in AoW for exemple) ends up being a boring mini game most of the time and the only reason to not auto resolve 95% of the fights is just to save units. Gladius is the best formula imo. The real question is could you make Gladius combat even better without 1UPT ? I feel like with some limits for super units it could make infantry more relevant late game. Also blast weapons could easily prevent the stacks of doom.

If you like Gladius but dislike 1UPT, their previous game, Pandor:First Contact, was pretty solid, and had good AI (maybe with a mod? I don't recall).
It was pretty bland when it comes to world building, though.

As for separate tactical combat, I think it makes much more sense in a medieval settings than in a modern one.
Civilization trying to do both had to make a compromise, but I much prefer having "lines of battles" for modern games, and stacks for ancient/medieval ones.
Even though encirclements and supply is not really a thing in Gladius, it still forces you to have some room to rotate your units and buffer your artillery.

 

[Latelistener]

Demo 8 is available until June 27th. Played it for 7 hours or so. I really dig the horror setting. It also looks and sounds fantastic and really like the UI.

I have some concerns regarding the factions though. Basically, all factions are human more or less and even if you play as a pure human you can still go cybernetic / chthonian way that makes even less of a difference.

Essentially, there are only 3 playable factions, but they're trying to splice it up with different leaders.

Additionally, there are 3 non-playable NPC factions. Another strange decision imo. Moreover, I had an alliance with 2 of them and they still waged war on one another. The game doesn't end until only 1 NPC factions remains (if you have an alliance with them).

Take my opinion with a grain of salt though, for some reason I haven't played much of 4X, but I do like them very much.

 

[Desman]

I have played a bit the last demo and my opinion is still the same, while the game improves a lot of things from gladius it is still wayyyyyy too combat focused and most gladius players will feel the game is a bit samey and without the cool 40K stuff (Zephon universe is pretty interesting but many people will prefer 40K setting).
They really need to make the peaceful stuff (city building, diplomacy, tile management etc...) more interesting, they need to take a deep look at SMAC, FFH2 and all the good 4X.

Still day 1 purchase but i feel like they could really make a truly memorable game and not just "gladius but a bit better" if they make some changes.

 

[Lacrymas]

Zephon isn't better than Gladius, though. Gladius has 12 distinct, historically established factions with at least 20 units per faction. I doubt Zephon will ever be nearly as diverse or expansive.

 

[Desman]

You are comparing Gladius + all DLC to a game still in beta. Zephon is "technically" better with diplomacy (even if barebone) and an improved engine. I still love gladius for the different factions and the 40K stuff but Zephon is already clearly better than vanilla gladius (if you don't crave for 40K content obviously).

You are probably right that they will never be able to milk the game with race/unit DLC like all the Warhammer games tho, that's why they need to add more mechanics, improve diplomacy and make the game less combat focused.

 

[Lacrymas]

Why would they make it less combat focused? Its 4X elements are as barebones as Gladius', so it will just turn out a shitty 4X.

 

[Desman]

I just said i want them to add more stuff (city building, improving diplomacy, tile improvement, elevations like in SMAC, terraforming etc...), it will make the game even better and i think it will improve the sales.
The main problem with this game is that it is a niche within a niche (a 4X focused on combat) and their previous game is very similar with a 40K flavour.
If they don't bring more new stuff the player base will remain pretty much the same (and most of them will still stay with gladius because they prefer 40K).

 

[Latelistener]

Gladius had 4 factions on release. This has, essentially, 3 playable and 3 non-playable, plus a bunch of leaders with their own unique perks.

I personally think it's a better game if we compare it to base Gladius.

 

[Lacrymas]

Zephon has 1 faction with 3 builds. Each faction in base game Gladius has at least 2 builds each.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

With new higher tier, more expensive, tech level in general you probably can't spread yourself too thin between the 3 paths.

That being said the game Leaders currently don't feel different enough to matters. E.g. if you play Synth faction it's all pretty similar to each other with exception that one faction that has SM mechanic (only 1 city). If you play Human they are pretty similar to each other with economic differences. If you play the Tentacle it's also all similar.

I feel the Leader are not distinct enough to matter and that's not good. They really need to sprinkle up more unique tech between the generic one to make the differences more meaningful

 

[Baron Tahn]

Well Gladius was a solid base. If they work on all the things like diplomacy on top of that could turn out good.

 

[Lacrymas]

Gladius doesn't need diplomacy. It's a war game.

 

[Baron Tahn]

I'm talking about Zephon. Gladius was great and didn't need diplomacy, but if they going to make a 4X then that's one of the things to develop. Research too - and, it seems, factions. 40k has them baked in, these guys are apparently struggling to create unique factions.

 

[Hydro]

For some weak reason I’m having my hopes high. Seemingly it hits the spot that was supposed to be occupied by Phoenix Point setting-wise and I am a big sucker for it. Remembering how fun Gladius was I can see how 4x mechanics can compliment it, but that would require some thorough approach from the devs and this is where I am a bit pessimistic knowing the current day gamedev economics. We’ll see anyway.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

For some weak reason I’m having my hopes high. Seemingly it hits the spot that was supposed to be occupied by Phoenix Point setting-wise and I am a big sucker for it. Remembering how fun Gladius was I can see how 4x mechanics can compliment it, but that would require some thorough approach from the devs and this is where I am a bit pessimistic knowing the current day gamedev economics. We’ll see anyway.

I am not sure how it will hit the feeling of PP. The Alien Cluthlu Horror thing is in the game as some units but they are units you are playing as. If anything the biggest threat of the map is local equivalent of Skynet.

Honestly would be an interesting concept to do 4X against massive AI Horror enemies. Sorcerer King tried this as a concept of playing 4X against a massively superior AI forces but failed hard in all level of execution.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It has released,

 

[Lacrymas]

I'll buy it down the line eventually, I have too many strategy games to play now, but hopefully it's good and people like it and support it.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I have too many strategy games to play now

Spoiler

From more recent stuff, I'm tempted to get


Dig the aesthetics. Dunno if you've played it.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Surprisingly OK pricing.

But judging by the demo, the game is just a slightly better produced and more intriguing setting-wise Gladius with (much) less factions. In other words, a pretty thorough meh.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah. Honestly, I wasn't overly impressed by the demos I've played because it does feel like Gladius but with a single expanded faction, but I have to give it a proper go to know for sure whether my initial impressions are warranted.