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101 ways to rule the world with Alchemy!

whatusername

Scholar
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Messages
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Location
burp
Fallout doesn't have any story? I consider "Man sent outside of his vault to find water chip" a story.
 

Bradylama

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,647
Location
Oklahomo
Fallout does not have any story. Neither good, not bad.

So the Vault Dweller having to find the Water Chip and stop the Master isn't a story? Or is that just a backdrop on which the player roleplays? Because if that's the case, then it means that "good stories" are secondary when it comes to "good RPGs."

This also means that the story being told in an RPG like Fallout or AoD is that of the player character's as it is influenced by the player, as opposed to any linear creator-driven narrative.

I'd argue that the story the player develops himself is better than the one that's forced upon him by the designer. I'm not talking about ESF's Larpers, either.
 

Seven

Erudite
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Messages
1,728
Location
North of the Glow
Lumpy said:
Claw said:
Gambler said:
That's what Todd Howard says.
What he says is irrelevant since his actions contradict it. Oblivion is utterly restrictive. It does exactly what I don't want, offer the player pre-written stories the player can choose to follow or not.
Really, bringing up the Toddler must be the most pathetic move I can imagine in this situation, so I guess I should have anticipated it coming from you.
I argued in favour of what? Killing all NPCs. I argued against what? Developers focussing on telling "their" story. Oblivion does what? Make all NPCs unkillable to protect the developers' "awesome" story.


Lumpy said:
Here's an example: the slave trader in Tel Aruhn in Morrowind. She did not seem essential at all, and players had reasons to kill her - to free her slaves.
Now, why should killing her prevent me from doing the main quest? Does it even make sense? You kill a random slave trader, so you can no longer buy a slave for the village chief? (stupid quest, btw) You could just go to another slave trader.
On the other hand, if you go and kill Caius Cossades, should the game keep you from doing it? It has a predictable, realistic consequence, so it shouldn't be prevented at all.
In this post I don't see anything supporting your point that questline-essential NPCs should be unkillable.
The slave-trader was questline-essential, and she should be unkillable.

Instead of being a sheep and asking the game designer to design shoddily (ie, rely on mechanics which are cheesy at best), why not ask for creative solutions which would not require certain NPCs to be unkillable. BTW, unkillable NPCs are not a feature they're design flaws. Also I, like most others here fail to see how any of the points that you've brought up are arguments for unkillable NPCs, if any thing your examples just point out bad design which I don't equate to the necessity of unkillable NPCs.
 

Paranoid Jack

Scholar
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
186
Paranoid Jack wrote:
So that should equate to a hell of a lot of variety in the plot and story-line.

Yep.

Quote:
So this requires a lot of different avenues for the story/plot to unfold. And if Iron Tower pulls this off we will see that happen and be amazed how we all were able to do things differently or had different out-comes when dealing with a quest-line or obstacle.

Pretty much. Often solving quest A a certain way opens up another way to handle quest B, which you would never see if you handle quest A differently or do quest B first (the game is non linear).

Quote:
I hope the story-line and options are as varied as humanly possible (for a four person team).

They are.

Quote:
So is it reasonable for any of us to request they make AoD so that we can kill whomever we damned well please?

All NPCs are killable. The only question is "Are you a bad enough dude to save the president?"

Quote:
So I guess we need VD to give us the final answer and put an end to all this debate. Will a player be able to kill every single NPC in the game and still complete the main quest or story-line?

Yes.

Sweet! I would have to assume that was a very early design decision.

I am very happy to hear that. That made my night. Yeah, I know that is kind of sad in a way but I love games and I always hate not being able to kill certain NPCs.

I'm one of the those people who while playing every single cRPG I have bought has occasional tried to kill certain NPCs. Only to find they were invincible or due to game design when the NPCs hit-points reached zero it would trigger something in game that basically was a slap on the hand telling little Johnny that he can't kill Farmer Joe so stop trying.

I am stoked now. Since playing an assassin or evil character type I will now be able to kill almost anyone... well depending on my characters stats and cunning of course.

Which leads me to ask how will criminal acts be handled?

For instance I talk to Farmer Joe and I take an instant disliking to him. After he gives me some goodie-two-shoes quest to go save his favorite sheep from the wolves I decided to sneak back into his cabin and kill him. What type of alert system will be in place. A nearby guard is a given since he could and possibly will hear the cries for help if Farm Joe is a wimp and doesn't die like a man. Muahahah!

Please, just tell me there is no telepathic alert system so one guard being alerted doesn't
mean all guards and all the towns folk also become instantly aware that I did something bad. I hate how killing somebody has an automatic negative toward your game-world surroundings. Unless I am discovered, caught red-handed as they say, or narked out by the quest giver nobody else should know.

I understand and even like the fact that doing certain quests or deeds will raise or lower my stand among the factions. Since people (the quest giver and/or other NPCs whom I spoke with) would talk or know that I had something to do with killing the King.

But what I am trying to find out is what if I decide to kill or do certain things that have not been given as a quest... if I kill the King just because I am an evil bastard and I get away with it undetected am I free and clear (besides closing off whatever quests the King may have triggered)? If a single person is alerted yet I am able to also kill the witness... or not able to kill the witness before they escape... how will this effect my game options?

Will I become a wanted man? Will guards and certain NPCs automatically attack me? If the guards catch me will I be imprisoned or just killed on the spot?

Sorry for so many question. As always... answer what you will, thanks.

What will be my first character build? I am most definitely creating an evil self centered bastard of a character (thief/assassin type) now that I know I can kill whomever I am capable of killing. I will exploit, kill, and betray... if it means there is a chance I will increasing the size of my coin purse. :twisted:
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
So the Vault Dweller having to find the Water Chip and stop the Master isn't a story?
It's a main quest, not a story.

Because if that's the case, then it means that "good stories" are secondary when it comes to "good RPGs."
No, it does not mean that. It only means that Fallout is not perfect. Get over it.

In case you want to continue this... whatever it is, feel free to create a separate topic in General RPG discussion. This is my last posts in this thread, becase it is supposed to be about AoD and alchemy.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
I somewhat agree with Gambler - Fallout does have a storyline, but it is very basic. It basically consists of:
You are told to get a water chip.
(You repair the water pump.)
You get the water chip.
You are told to kill the mutants.
(You go to the BOS bunker and get the mutant autopsy holodisk.)
(You convince the BOS to send some Paladins to the Military Base.)
You destroy the Cathedral.
You destroy the Military Base.

As opposed to, say, Gothic's storyline:
You are thrown into the colony.
You join a camp.
You are sent to the Sect Camp to investigate.
You get them the focus stone.
You get them the almanac.
Y'Berion goes into a coma.
You are sent to the orc cemetery.
You find nothing there.
You are sent to the New Camp.
You are asked to get them the focus stones.
The fire mages are killed.
You free the Free Mine.
You are sent to Xardas.
Xardas sends you to talk to an Orc Shaman.
You then get the Ulu-Mulu.
You go to the Orc Temple and kill four Shamans.
You get the URIZIEL.
You charge the URIZIEL.
You kill the last shaman.
You kill Kor Kalom and banish the Sleeper.
 

Bradylama

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,647
Location
Oklahomo
It's a main quest, not a story.

Alright then, what about all the other background information that surrounds that quest? Harold's origins, the FEV originating from the Glow, the Super Mutant invasion of Necropolis, all of that stuff becomes a part of the story beyond the setting, and by piecing those things together, you come up with a coherent tale behind the game, if not necessarily a narrative.

This thread stopped being about Alchemy in AoD pages ago, and all of this Fallout business is tied into AoD, because the games feature a similar design in terms of setting, and NPC interaction. Don't use "off topic" as a copout.

I never claimed that Fallout was perfect, but what I don't understand is how Fallout has no story as opposed to a short one, and how that means that "good stories" presumably the ones like Deus Ex, as you've used it as an example, are necessary for good RPG design.
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
Alright then, what about all the other background information that surrounds that quest?
All that is part of the setting.

how that means that "good stories" presumably the ones like Deus Ex, as you've used it as an example, are necessary for good RPG design.
RPGs are about playing a role, i.e. making choices that express the personality you've made up for your character. Without a good storyline you have neither motivation to act, nor a framework that fills your actions with meaning.

Let's say a few NPCs attack you and some other NPC. Will running away say something about your character? No, because the whole situation is meaningless. Whatever your choice is, it adds nothing to your role. On the other hand, chosing between helping Paul to fight with men in black, or running away says a lot about what kind of JC Denton you are. That is the value of a good story.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Paranoid Jack said:
Sweet! I would have to assume that was a very early design decision.
It was.

I'm one of the those people who while playing every single cRPG I have bought has occasional tried to kill certain NPCs. Only to find they were invincible or due to game design when the NPCs hit-points reached zero it would trigger something in game that basically was a slap on the hand telling little Johnny that he can't kill Farmer Joe so stop trying.
I hate those forced events the most.

I am stoked now. Since playing an assassin or evil character type I will now be able to kill almost anyone... well depending on my characters stats and cunning of course.
There are plenty of reasons to kill a lot of people if you are good too.

Please, just tell me there is no telepathic alert system ...
There is no telepatic alert system, there is an alert radius. If the guards nearby, they will investigate, if not...

The kill is added to your reputation stats ("body count" and "combat"), but these are equivalent of rumors and the guards won't act on them.

if I kill the King just because I am an evil bastard and I get away with it undetected am I free and clear
You are free and clear. No fame, no title, no hard feelings.
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
Vault Dweller said:
if I kill the King just because I am an evil bastard and I get away with it undetected am I free and clear
You are free and clear. No fame, no title, no hard feelings.

Shouldn't there still be consequences? An investigator asking dangerous questions? An increase in guard patrols? Other high profile NPC's hiring more guards?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
GhanBuriGhan said:
Vault Dweller said:
if I kill the King just because I am an evil bastard and I get away with it undetected am I free and clear
You are free and clear. No fame, no title, no hard feelings.

Shouldn't there still be consequences? An investigator asking dangerous questions? An increase in guard patrols? Other high profile NPC's hiring more guards?
There are consequences, but being a "free spirit" you may or may not be affected. For example, killing Antidas triggers Teron's takeover by another House. The exact effect would depend on the place you've chosen for yourself in the gameworld.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
@ Lumpy's description of FO and Gothic plots: Don't miss that some of FO can be done "out of order" and solved in different ways. (You actually described events that never happened in some of my run-throughs.) The Gothic plot, otoh, is entirely linear and always the same.

Of course, they have in common the fact that both are at their best in the early game, when you're exploring the world and discovering its rules. In that sense, the early game in both is very open-ended, and each becomes increasingly linear as the plot coalesces (tho Gothic ends up considerably more "railed" than FO).
 

Bradylama

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
23,647
Location
Oklahomo
RPGs are about playing a role, i.e. making choices that express the personality you've made up for your character. Without a good storyline you have neither motivation to act, nor a framework that fills your actions with meaning.

That's hardly true. Fallout was able to accomplish both of those through its setting and NPC interaction.

Let's say a few NPCs attack you and some other NPC. Will running away say something about your character? No, because the whole situation is meaningless. Whatever your choice is, it adds nothing to your role. On the other hand, chosing between helping Paul to fight with men in black, or running away says a lot about what kind of JC Denton you are. That is the value of a good story.

On the other hand, choosing whether or not to save Tandi, help the bandits, or even kill all of the bandits reflects on what kind of Vault Dweller you're supposed to be.

The quests and character interaction in Fallout create a story that is player-driven. It may not have a set narrative, but just because it's a non-linear game does not mean that it lacks a story. The story in Fallout is the Vault Dweller's, if not necessarily the Vault Dweller retrieving the Water Chip and defeating the Master.

Leaving an NPC to die certainly could reflect on what kind of Vault Dweller you were through the Karma system.
 

Gambler

Augur
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Messages
767
On the other hand, choosing whether or not to save Tandi, help the bandits, or even kill all of the bandits reflects on what kind of Vault Dweller you're supposed to be.
The only thing it really tells is that Vault Dweller is a computer game character. High risk, low plausibility, no significant rewards in sight, no personal ties. Classics.

Leaving an NPC to die
...tells nothing specific about player character. Who is that NPC? How is he related to you? What kind of force threatens to kill him/her?
 

Necro

Novice
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Messages
21
while not really acid...what about throwing dust or sand in someones eyes or other ways to blind them?
 

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