Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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101 ways to rule the world with Alchemy!

Discussion in 'Age of Decadence' started by Vault Dweller, May 3, 2005.

  1. whatusername Scholar

    whatusername
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  2. Bradylama Arcane

    Bradylama
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    So the Vault Dweller having to find the Water Chip and stop the Master isn't a story? Or is that just a backdrop on which the player roleplays? Because if that's the case, then it means that "good stories" are secondary when it comes to "good RPGs."

    This also means that the story being told in an RPG like Fallout or AoD is that of the player character's as it is influenced by the player, as opposed to any linear creator-driven narrative.

    I'd argue that the story the player develops himself is better than the one that's forced upon him by the designer. I'm not talking about ESF's Larpers, either.
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  3. Seven Erudite

    Seven
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    Instead of being a sheep and asking the game designer to design shoddily (ie, rely on mechanics which are cheesy at best), why not ask for creative solutions which would not require certain NPCs to be unkillable. BTW, unkillable NPCs are not a feature they're design flaws. Also I, like most others here fail to see how any of the points that you've brought up are arguments for unkillable NPCs, if any thing your examples just point out bad design which I don't equate to the necessity of unkillable NPCs.
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  4. Paranoid Jack Scholar

    Paranoid Jack
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    Sweet! I would have to assume that was a very early design decision.

    I am very happy to hear that. That made my night. Yeah, I know that is kind of sad in a way but I love games and I always hate not being able to kill certain NPCs.

    I'm one of the those people who while playing every single cRPG I have bought has occasional tried to kill certain NPCs. Only to find they were invincible or due to game design when the NPCs hit-points reached zero it would trigger something in game that basically was a slap on the hand telling little Johnny that he can't kill Farmer Joe so stop trying.

    I am stoked now. Since playing an assassin or evil character type I will now be able to kill almost anyone... well depending on my characters stats and cunning of course.

    Which leads me to ask how will criminal acts be handled?

    For instance I talk to Farmer Joe and I take an instant disliking to him. After he gives me some goodie-two-shoes quest to go save his favorite sheep from the wolves I decided to sneak back into his cabin and kill him. What type of alert system will be in place. A nearby guard is a given since he could and possibly will hear the cries for help if Farm Joe is a wimp and doesn't die like a man. Muahahah!

    Please, just tell me there is no telepathic alert system so one guard being alerted doesn't
    mean all guards and all the towns folk also become instantly aware that I did something bad. I hate how killing somebody has an automatic negative toward your game-world surroundings. Unless I am discovered, caught red-handed as they say, or narked out by the quest giver nobody else should know.

    I understand and even like the fact that doing certain quests or deeds will raise or lower my stand among the factions. Since people (the quest giver and/or other NPCs whom I spoke with) would talk or know that I had something to do with killing the King.

    But what I am trying to find out is what if I decide to kill or do certain things that have not been given as a quest... if I kill the King just because I am an evil bastard and I get away with it undetected am I free and clear (besides closing off whatever quests the King may have triggered)? If a single person is alerted yet I am able to also kill the witness... or not able to kill the witness before they escape... how will this effect my game options?

    Will I become a wanted man? Will guards and certain NPCs automatically attack me? If the guards catch me will I be imprisoned or just killed on the spot?

    Sorry for so many question. As always... answer what you will, thanks.

    What will be my first character build? I am most definitely creating an evil self centered bastard of a character (thief/assassin type) now that I know I can kill whomever I am capable of killing. I will exploit, kill, and betray... if it means there is a chance I will increasing the size of my coin purse. :twisted:
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  5. Gambler Scholar

    Gambler
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    It's a main quest, not a story.

    No, it does not mean that. It only means that Fallout is not perfect. Get over it.

    In case you want to continue this... whatever it is, feel free to create a separate topic in General RPG discussion. This is my last posts in this thread, becase it is supposed to be about AoD and alchemy.
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  6. Lumpy Arcane

    Lumpy
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    I somewhat agree with Gambler - Fallout does have a storyline, but it is very basic. It basically consists of:
    You are told to get a water chip.
    (You repair the water pump.)
    You get the water chip.
    You are told to kill the mutants.
    (You go to the BOS bunker and get the mutant autopsy holodisk.)
    (You convince the BOS to send some Paladins to the Military Base.)
    You destroy the Cathedral.
    You destroy the Military Base.

    As opposed to, say, Gothic's storyline:
    You are thrown into the colony.
    You join a camp.
    You are sent to the Sect Camp to investigate.
    You get them the focus stone.
    You get them the almanac.
    Y'Berion goes into a coma.
    You are sent to the orc cemetery.
    You find nothing there.
    You are sent to the New Camp.
    You are asked to get them the focus stones.
    The fire mages are killed.
    You free the Free Mine.
    You are sent to Xardas.
    Xardas sends you to talk to an Orc Shaman.
    You then get the Ulu-Mulu.
    You go to the Orc Temple and kill four Shamans.
    You get the URIZIEL.
    You charge the URIZIEL.
    You kill the last shaman.
    You kill Kor Kalom and banish the Sleeper.
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  7. Bradylama Arcane

    Bradylama
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    Alright then, what about all the other background information that surrounds that quest? Harold's origins, the FEV originating from the Glow, the Super Mutant invasion of Necropolis, all of that stuff becomes a part of the story beyond the setting, and by piecing those things together, you come up with a coherent tale behind the game, if not necessarily a narrative.

    This thread stopped being about Alchemy in AoD pages ago, and all of this Fallout business is tied into AoD, because the games feature a similar design in terms of setting, and NPC interaction. Don't use "off topic" as a copout.

    I never claimed that Fallout was perfect, but what I don't understand is how Fallout has no story as opposed to a short one, and how that means that "good stories" presumably the ones like Deus Ex, as you've used it as an example, are necessary for good RPG design.
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  8. Gambler Scholar

    Gambler
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    All that is part of the setting.

    RPGs are about playing a role, i.e. making choices that express the personality you've made up for your character. Without a good storyline you have neither motivation to act, nor a framework that fills your actions with meaning.

    Let's say a few NPCs attack you and some other NPC. Will running away say something about your character? No, because the whole situation is meaningless. Whatever your choice is, it adds nothing to your role. On the other hand, chosing between helping Paul to fight with men in black, or running away says a lot about what kind of JC Denton you are. That is the value of a good story.
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  9. Vault Dweller Ubersturmfuhrer

    Vault Dweller
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    It was.

    I hate those forced events the most.

    There are plenty of reasons to kill a lot of people if you are good too.

    There is no telepatic alert system, there is an alert radius. If the guards nearby, they will investigate, if not...

    The kill is added to your reputation stats ("body count" and "combat"), but these are equivalent of rumors and the guards won't act on them.

    You are free and clear. No fame, no title, no hard feelings.
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  10. GhanBuriGhan Arbiter

    GhanBuriGhan
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    Shouldn't there still be consequences? An investigator asking dangerous questions? An increase in guard patrols? Other high profile NPC's hiring more guards?
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  11. Vault Dweller Ubersturmfuhrer

    Vault Dweller
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    There are consequences, but being a "free spirit" you may or may not be affected. For example, killing Antidas triggers Teron's takeover by another House. The exact effect would depend on the place you've chosen for yourself in the gameworld.
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  12. GhanBuriGhan Arbiter

    GhanBuriGhan
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    Maybe I'll really like this game.
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  13. suibhne Erudite

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    @ Lumpy's description of FO and Gothic plots: Don't miss that some of FO can be done "out of order" and solved in different ways. (You actually described events that never happened in some of my run-throughs.) The Gothic plot, otoh, is entirely linear and always the same.

    Of course, they have in common the fact that both are at their best in the early game, when you're exploring the world and discovering its rules. In that sense, the early game in both is very open-ended, and each becomes increasingly linear as the plot coalesces (tho Gothic ends up considerably more "railed" than FO).
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  14. Bradylama Arcane

    Bradylama
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    That's hardly true. Fallout was able to accomplish both of those through its setting and NPC interaction.

    On the other hand, choosing whether or not to save Tandi, help the bandits, or even kill all of the bandits reflects on what kind of Vault Dweller you're supposed to be.

    The quests and character interaction in Fallout create a story that is player-driven. It may not have a set narrative, but just because it's a non-linear game does not mean that it lacks a story. The story in Fallout is the Vault Dweller's, if not necessarily the Vault Dweller retrieving the Water Chip and defeating the Master.

    Leaving an NPC to die certainly could reflect on what kind of Vault Dweller you were through the Karma system.
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  15. Gambler Scholar

    Gambler
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    The only thing it really tells is that Vault Dweller is a computer game character. High risk, low plausibility, no significant rewards in sight, no personal ties. Classics.

    ...tells nothing specific about player character. Who is that NPC? How is he related to you? What kind of force threatens to kill him/her?
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  16. Necro Novice

    Necro
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    while not really acid...what about throwing dust or sand in someones eyes or other ways to blind them?
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