Incline ArcSys saving fighting games with Dragon Ball FighterZ

[Gerrard]

Dragon Ball FighterZ Worldwide Shipments and Digital Sales Top 2 Million Units

Developed by Arc System Works, the game has become the fastest-selling game in the Dragon Ball series to reach two million units.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well let's see how much slice ArcSys is even getting from Namco Bandai.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

I'd hope they made a reasonable deal up-front.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

great read, player got butthurt about "juggles" and proceeds to come up with some of the most unexpected analogies to back his point of view

https://steamcommunity.com/app/678950/discussions/0/1699415798780731992/?ctp=1

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'm no fighting game expert, but his point is valid in a general sense. Nobody would want to play a game where combos took 2-3 minutes to resolve because it's tedious as fuck to spend such a large proportion of the game not doing anything. And on the other side of the scale, smash brothers got pretty fucking competitive (surprised nobody mentioned it in the thread) and it doesn't involve a shitton of combos.

I think it would be cool to have some sort of partial defense system, where the player getting juggled can do something equally skill based to mitigate the damage or build meter faster or something, without interrupting things.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

- combos do not last "2-3 minutes", more like 8-10 seconds
- while being juggled you should think about the mixup coming after it and consider your defensive options, and be aware of the opponent's execution drops or reset attempts, to escape them accordingly
- 3v3 games need high damage combos, because you kinda have 3 lifebars and if it took 10+ openings to beat 1 character matches would draaaag
- if the game have flexible combo system, it allows you to sorta express yourself through it, go for flashy stuff, or alter it for some specific situation (gain more meter, finish off a character, get a knockdown sacrificing some damage, escape a corner, push your opponent in the corner).

not an exhaustive list at all, just some snippets. there's more to combos than finding one long button combination that leaves your opponent dead

 

[Damned Registrations]

- combos do not last "2-3 minutes", more like 8-10 seconds

I didn't say they do (though I'm sure there's a fighting game somewhere like that, infinite juggles are a thing after all), I'm pointing out that there's a spectrum, and if you got too far towards the long end of it, the game becomes shittier. I don't think there's a similar problem at the short end of the spectrum.

- while being juggled you should think about the mixup coming after it and consider your defensive options, and be aware of the opponent's execution drops or reset attempts, to escape them accordingly

That all applies to a 2 or 3 hit combo that is over in 1 second as well.

- 3v3 games need high damage combos, because you kinda have 3 lifebars and if it took 10+ openings to beat 1 character matches would draaaag

Again, there's no need for a 10 second combo here. A short combo could do high damage as well.

- if the game have flexible combo system, it allows you to sorta express yourself through it, go for flashy stuff, or alter it for some specific situation (gain more meter, finish off a character, get a knockdown sacrificing some damage, escape a corner, push your opponent in the corner).

That's all good stuff, but is there a reason combos need to last 10 seconds to be flexible? I mean, the last half of the combo is literally just a big cutscene of one (or three) guy(s) charging his laser right?

I think the real reason games have evolved in this direction is because the spectacle is more popular for audiences. Casuals can't really follow a game of footsies, but they know the match has taken a huge turn when a combo goes off and someone sinks a ton of meter into finishing it.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

That all applies to a 2 or 3 hit combo that is over in 1 second as well.

nah man, who's gonna drop 2-hit combos? =)

last half of the combo is literally just a big cutscene of one (or three) guy(s) charging his laser

not all combos end in supers tho

 

[Damned Registrations]

nah man, who's gonna drop 2-hit combos? =)

That depends, if the timing is tight enough, plenty of people could. Or if the input involved is crazy enough. Obviously there's a happy medium though between 2 and 20 hit combos.

not all combos end in supers tho

True, but not all of them are over in just 10 seconds either. The complaint is about the long ass combos people aren't going to drop that result in too much dead time during the match where you're not really playing.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

maybe you're judging the game by watching combo-videos? they go for max length and flashiness, most of them aint practical and are not used during actual gameplay. From the sets i watched on tubes, mostly people tend to do quite short combos now, around 6-7 seconds tops, and the emphasis is on the situation after — putting the opponent under pressure and mixing them up. Endings with cutscene supers are mostly to finish the third character off.

Obviously there's a happy medium though between 2 and 20 hit combos.

some fighting games have that happy medium, some even have 2-3 hit combos. it's about variety. 3v3 game with assists can't really fly without some extended combos. plus, again, actual gameplay of DBFZ mostly consists of combos around 15 hits (combo counter can get high, but it's mostly the case of an opening attack doing like 20 hits in an instant).

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'm not really even talking about this game in particular. I haven't looked at it a ton, and even if I had, I don't play enough of these games to judge it in any sort of context.

I'm just arguing about the principles in a general sense. Like of these two games:

A: Combos take 10 seconds to resolve, involve 10-15 inputs, inputs are basically never failed.

B: Combos take 3 seconds to resolve, involve 4-8 inputs, inputs are failed ~1-5% of the time.

Assuming all else is equal, game B is vastly superior, yes?

Even 6 seconds seems like a long ass time to me in a fighting game to go without having any input. Like, can you imagine that flying in any other real time game? Going 6 seconds without having input in an FPS (aside from death obviously) or a racing game with 6 second long jumps without anything to do in midair?

Reminds me of playing online card games against token spam decks where you need to watch a bunch of animations resolve (or worse yet, pass priority 20 times) for a really long time for a relatively trivial effect. Nobody announces every part of a 20 step process when playing that shit IRL, and nobody wants to sit there and think about their next move when they could be making that move instead.

Mostly I just don't see why it needs to be like this at all. You could have something like a timed defense that reduces damage by XX% during hit stun, meaning the defending player would need to react to the combo actively, and mixing up the timing of the combo would also have more impact.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

if we are talking about the genre in general there is a ton of different approaches to combo system, and a lot of them allow you to do stuff while being comboed: air control in Soul Calibur series, Burst in Guilty Gear, Combo Breakers in Killer Instinct, MvC3 had you guessing the side during switch-combos etc. It's not like they are all made the same )

 

[Damned Registrations]

Burst in GG is something I always thought was really cool, though execution in that game is waaaay over my head.

You inspired me to look at some actual fight footage of this game, and while it does look mostly like short exchanges like you said, the longer combos get pretty fucking egregious. Check out 14:34-14:52 on this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7uAJpUIiDw Having an 18 second window where the only input you need to make is block in case the other guy fucks up somehow seems pretty wrong to me.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

have you tried GG Xrd? It had lowered the execution bar compared to GGXX era, and plus some characters are less demanding than others.

regarding the video, yes this sequence was long, but it required 4 stocks of meter, so you wont see it that often.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Wait, there is no Burst in DB FighterZ? I thought it is the staple of ArcSys

 

[Damned Registrations]

I know there's a 'spark' that puts you in berserker mode for a while, not sure if it also functions as a burst. Either way, it's only once per match, while in GG it just required burning meter AFAIK.

 

[mogwaimon]

MvC2 had infinites that were commonly used in high level play and that game ended up sustaining the FGC for like a decade during the drought. And, shit, if you want a more egregious example of brokenass fighters working out, look at Hokuto no Ken. That one is completely busted and people still love it even today.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

look at Hokuto no Ken.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

have you tried GG Xrd? It had lowered the execution bar compared to GGXX era, and plus some characters are less demanding than others.

regarding the video, yes this sequence was long, but it required 4 stocks of meter, so you wont see it that often.

It sadly also added long ass combos, pre Xrd games never really had that "feature". I love Xrd but imo it took it too far in a few places.

Spoiler

fuck Ramlethal/Sin

Spoiler

 

[RoBoBOBR]

added long ass combos

heh, like you've never seen Bad Land loops or other Testament's crap with powered-up nets? Or Faust's otg-near-infinites in +r? GG always had characters with long combos.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

 

[Nathir]

RoBoBOBR Are you the RoboBOBR that plays Slayer in GG Xrd in EU rooms? I think I've played against you a few times and got my ass whoopped. You're really good.

Anyway, this game is incredibly fun to play, and I like it. The overall gameplay is a bit on the cheap side I feel and it's no GG. But with future updates I can see this game become even more amazing.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

Nathir yep, that's me ) Thanks, i'd say i'm in mid tiers (at best) of EU skillwise.

DBFZ might get quite a bit better when people get used to utilizing assists and stuff like that.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

added long ass combos

heh, like you've never seen Bad Land loops or other Testament's crap with powered-up nets? Or Faust's otg-near-infinites in +r? GG always had characters with long combos.

not realy, the actual time those combo's take are peanuts compared to some Xrd shit.

Also, DBZF is kewl an' all, but come march it's back to GG

 

[Gerrard]

"After releasing Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 it's clear what we need to improve on. The key is to win over more users because of the complex controls. But if we implement everything the game will no longer be Guilty Gear. It's hard to balance out all the improvements. One thing that we have to do in the next installment is to reduce the number of systems [mechanics]; it's too complicated for everyone. You can expect that in the next game."