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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Shadenuat

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Chris and Josh working together on the same project, where their specific talents are used best, is just about the best RPG dream team you can come up with.
As DMs I think they both want to write and have control over world building, but their types of writing are not compatible with each other on a bigger scale - like when designing whole setting and story arc. Just compare FNV's Honest Hearts with Old World Blues.

I wish I could see them prepare and DM separately a game. That would tell me more about these two designers than any interview. Preferably saved in a written format.
 

Azarkon

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Josh's favorite games: Pool of Radiance, Darklands, Fallout

Chris's favorite games: Chronotrigger, System Shock 2, Fallout

The only shared favorite between the two is Fallout, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't for the same cause, because Fallout to CRPG people is basically the "every game" - ie it had a little bit for everyone.

Chris is basically a narratives person. Josh is basically a systems person.

The issue is that Josh also thinks of himself as a narratives person, while Chris also thinks of himself as a systems person. That's why both of them were not able to stay in the same company.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You guys are probably overestimating Josh's role in this matter.

Agree with IHaveHugeNick that Feargus holds some blame for not addressing what was happening under his nose. If Azrael the cat saw this happening years ago then so could have he.
 

J_C

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So, what is Chris doing right now? He writes some stuff in Torment, and will write some stuff for Divinity OS2, but you can't make a living by californian standars by small thing like those. Several months have passed since Chris' departure, what might he be up to?
 

Athelas

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So, what is Chris doing right now? He writes some stuff in Torment, and will write some stuff for Divinity OS2, but you can't make a living by californian standars by small thing like those.
I believe one of the benefits of being a celebrity stretch goal is to receive disproportionately large payment for relatively little work.
 
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IHaveHugeNick

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As DMs I think they both want to write and have control over world building, but their types of writing are not compatible with each other on a bigger scale - like when designing whole setting and story arc. Just compare FNV's Honest Hearts with Old World Blues.

Oh I agree they both want full control. I don't want either of them to have full control, though. Without going into another extensive rant, Chris can't do gameplay and Josh can't do writing. If they work together, they have all important elements of a good RPG covered. If they don't, well then we end up with Pillars. Which was a fine game, but it could've, should've been so much more.
 

Shadenuat

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It's okay for a game to have only one or two strong points. People who do good writing have different opinion on how good gameplay should look like, and vise versa.
 

grotsnik

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My main concern, though, is that MCA has repeatedly shown that he's poorly suited to the thing that he often likes to do - jumping in to write 1-2 NPCs and a single small quest hub. They are always interesting, really well written....and feel like they're transplanted in from a completely different game. New Reno is more glaring than most, but it's strongly typical of his output in that scenario - some really awesome quest design, interesting larger-than-life characters, the most entertaining party member in the game...and it is all so woefully out of place in the setting that it actively detracts from the game.

Everyone has assumed that Sawyer is the bad guy in forcing MCA to cut the heart of his 2 NPCs in PoE. And MCA's ideas for those NPCs does sound really neat, and you can see how they might combine with what's already there (which is pretty good) to make a far more interesting pair of intertwined NPCs than anything else in the game. But fuck, look at his track record. I'm more than willing to believe that they simply didn't fit the setting, the mood and the game's broader writing style, and that Sawyer was just the first project manager to have the balls to call MCA out on this crap.

I really like MCA's work. Even Alpha Protocol was a really interesting failure, of a kind that could be used as a productive learning foundation for a genuinely great game. And it had some of the best writing and C+C the genre has seen. But it's not a style that can just slot into any project. MCA has never been good at writing 'realistic' characters...in fact, he's never even tried to write 'realistic' characters, from what I can see. 'Kill Bill' is his usual approach - he writes comic book characters, but in the very best sense of the word. Operating at his best, he writes comic book characters of the kind you'd find in one of the better Alan Moore works, grand and colourful stand-ins for philosophical themes, different aspects of humanity, and tragedy writ large and entertainingly colourful among the angst and despair. Rainbow-bright and gritty, instead of dark and gritty.

And that only works when he's the guy in charge of the writing and the setting.

I think as a general principle, you're right - but OE has seen at least two major occasions where MCA was a smaller contributor and it worked out perfectly well. On MotB, where the creative lead's style and thematic interests perfectly complemented his own. And on New Vegas, where some bright spark correctly identified story DLC as an opportunity for Chris to just go off in his own direction (three times in a row) without breaking the tone of the base game.

He's proven that he can work on someone else's project, if it's the right fit. But like you say, if it isn't the right fit - and in a constantly-struggling RPG studio, it's not like they've been able to tailor their projects to one guy's sensibilities - one way or another, he's wasted.

Which comes back to what IHaveHugeNick was saying about Feargus; if you're lucky enough to have perhaps the only writer in the industry who you could argue for as an auteur, someone whose best work is always recognisable and always personal, and who carries about as much cachet as the rest of your staff combined...why haven't you figured out how to use him effectively yet? If you've found a perfect creative running-mate for Avellone in George Ziets, why do you keep letting him slip away as well?

But honestly, right now MCA just comes across as a bit listless. When he takes on smaller contributions to other people's work, he gets them done. When he tries to make more sustained efforts on his own, he promises them enthusiastically and then they just seem to peter out (did we ever get all of those novellas?). Perhaps the reason he hasn't taken more of a lead creatively in so long is that he just doesn't know if he feels up to it. Which is a pretty depressing possibility.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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It's okay for a game to have only one or two strong points. People who do good writing have different opinion on how good gameplay should look like, and vise versa.

I'm fine with that. I don't expect to ever see game that can combine combat of Jagged Alliance, writing of PS:T, and C&C of Fallout 2. That can never be done, no matter how many legendary developers you pack on the team.

Different projects can have different primary focus, and that's fine. In fact, they should always have a primary focus, because biggest problem with Pillars, was that it was trying to be too many things at the same time. But ultimately, even the most writing focused RPG needs competent systems, and even the most combat focused RPG needs competent writing. But for some bizarre reason, OE never managed to get their two best guys to work together in a tandem.

I'm probably theorizing things to the point of absurdity, but for the sake of argument, what If you could just inject some of Avellone's trademark flawed gems with some Saywersauce? Most likely, they're not flawed anymore. They're gems.

Why the fuck they could never work it out, I have no idea. But its gonna haunt me for years.
 

Azarkon

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Yes and no. He may be free from formal interference, but the higher up you go into management, the more time you've got to spend managing instead of creating.

It's great for someone with the interests and skill-set of Sawyer. If you're a balance/systems-fag, then it doesn't really matter whether you're writing/designing an area v whether someone else is, because you can implement a set of rules and system mandates, and have minions do all the basic design. Rising higher means expanding the reach of your vision and style.

If you're a creative/story/design-fag, then greater reliance on minions will dilute your work. That's not to say that you're best being at the absolute coal-face, writing text for minor NPCs and choosing what colour clothing the random mooks wear. But once you're at a project management role, you're probably having very little direct writing/art/area-design entering the game. Perhaps you'll get to do a few areas yourself, but that isn't 'project management', that's you doubling up as both the project manager and doing a design role on top of it.

My main concern, though, is that MCA has repeatedly shown that he's poorly suited to the thing that he often likes to do - jumping in to write 1-2 NPCs and a single small quest hub. They are always interesting, really well written....and feel like they're transplanted in from a completely different game. New Reno is more glaring than most, but it's strongly typical of his output in that scenario - some really awesome quest design, interesting larger-than-life characters, the most entertaining party member in the game...and it is all so woefully out of place in the setting that it actively detracts from the game.

Everyone has assumed that Sawyer is the bad guy in forcing MCA to cut the heart of his 2 NPCs in PoE. And MCA's ideas for those NPCs does sound really neat, and you can see how they might combine with what's already there (which is pretty good) to make a far more interesting pair of intertwined NPCs than anything else in the game. But fuck, look at his track record. I'm more than willing to believe that they simply didn't fit the setting, the mood and the game's broader writing style, and that Sawyer was just the first project manager to have the balls to call MCA out on this crap.

I really like MCA's work. Even Alpha Protocol was a really interesting failure, of a kind that could be used as a productive learning foundation for a genuinely great game. And it had some of the best writing and C+C the genre has seen. But it's not a style that can just slot into any project. MCA has never been good at writing 'realistic' characters...in fact, he's never even tried to write 'realistic' characters, from what I can see. 'Kill Bill' is his usual approach - he writes comic book characters, but in the very best sense of the word. Operating at his best, he writes comic book characters of the kind you'd find in one of the better Alan Moore works, grand and colourful stand-ins for philosophical themes, different aspects of humanity, and tragedy writ large and entertainingly colourful among the angst and despair. Rainbow-bright and gritty, instead of dark and gritty.

And that only works when he's the guy in charge of the writing and the setting.

Ideally, I'd like to see MCA working below Project Manager - fuck dealing with milestones, employee management, etc. But at a much higher level of responsibility than what he's been doing. Having the guy write an NPC or two as a stretch goal is actively harmful to a project. Better to have him as 'lead designer', or even 'lead writer', while giving the project management responsibilities to someone who can sperg about systems and can get the project running on time and under budget (and whatever Sawyer's flaws, he instantly improved Obsidian's performance in those aspects).

Obsidian has never done a game, save for Alpha Protocol which ended up being fine as a bigger-than-life take anyhow, that called for "realistic characters." This includes Pillars of Eternity, which was advertised to us backers as a laundry list of Infinity Engine games, first among them being Baldur's Gate.

Baldur's Gate was not a "realistic characters" game. Every single one of its characters both in classic and in the sequel were comic fantasy archetypes. They were also all paper thin, which detracts from the game rather than adds to it, when placed beside a game such as PST, for example.

So the issue for me becomes, why did Josh get to take charge of the writing for Pillars of Eternity? Who called for a "realistic" fantasy game in Obsidian's original IP?

I'd understand it were this, say, Kingdom Come. That MCA is not suited for writing such a game. That you want history-minded Josh to chisel all the details. But this was Obsidian's version of Baldur's Gate. Their shot at high fantasy, not bound by any existing work. They were given money to build whatever they wanted, as long as it was high fantasy, isometric, and had dialogue choices & characters.

And they built the Black Hound, even though Josh up to this stage had only been responsible for IWD games, the stories of which were mere excuses for tactical D&D combat. IWD was pretty low on the list of games people were thinking about when they backed the kickstarter, so why go in that direction?

To me, this isn't a simple case of MCA not being the person for the job. He was the person for the job. But for causes as of now not known to us, he didn't take it.
 
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I think as a general principle, you're right - but OE has seen at least two major occasions where MCA was a smaller contributor and it worked out perfectly well. On MotB, where the creative lead's style and thematic interests perfectly complemented his own. And on New Vegas, where some bright spark correctly identified story DLC as an opportunity for Chris to just go off in his own direction (three times in a row) without breaking the tone of the base game.

He's proven that he can work on someone else's project, if it's the right fit. But like you say, if it isn't the right fit - and in a constantly-struggling RPG studio, it's not like they've been able to tailor their projects to one guy's sensibilities - one way or another, he's wasted.

Which comes back to what IHaveHugeNick was saying about Feargus; if you're lucky enough to have perhaps the only writer in the industry who you could argue for as an auteur, someone whose best work is always recognisable and always personal, and who carries about as much cachet as the rest of your staff combined...why haven't you figured out how to use him effectively yet? If you've found a perfect creative running-mate for Avellone in George Ziets, why do you keep letting him slip away as well?

But honestly, right now MCA just comes across as a bit listless. When he takes on smaller contributions to other people's work, he gets them done. When he tries to make more sustained efforts on his own, he promises them enthusiastically and then they just seem to peter out (did we ever get all of those novellas?). Perhaps the reason he hasn't taken more of a lead creatively in so long is that he just doesn't know if he feels up to it. Which is a pretty depressing possibility.
Hey bro, welcome back! I've missed you (you probably don't remember me, but we registered at the same day, and I always enjoyed reading your posts).

I think that another MCA's problem is that he's slowly getting out of touch with gaming. I'm not even talking about Arcanum, and not about his popamole shoutouts in twitter. But he somehow managed even to fuck up Fallout Shelter walkthrough. If it was deliberate - fine, though still strange. If it wasn't - it's kinda worse than all wolves altogether. Latest Kickstarter dramas showed us that even if beloved developers, who made many great games in the past want to make another one - they often get so out of touch with both modern gaming and how the things should be done, that it ends in disaster. I'm not saying that MCA reached that stage yet, of course. But, well, I really would liked him to play some more hardcore games. (And now I'm imagining MCA playing Dwarf Fortress).
 

Azarkon

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We're all out of touch with modern gaming. That's why we're on the Codex and not Bioware Social.
 
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We're all out of touch with modern gaming. That's why we're on the Codex and not Bioware Social.
I'm not talking about popamole AAA gaming, I'm mostly talking about contemporary niche and hardcore games. What many of the previous generation devs fail to grasp, is that their audience consists mostly of grognards, who don't want to see another AAA attempt on indie budget. Tricky part is, to make a really great game developers in question need to innovate, improving on their old formulae, while taking in account good ideas from younger generation games, and cutting various frustrating parts from their own game formula, which often were in game design those days (due to technical limitations, or qurks and habits of game dev in olden days).

Anyway, being old and obscure doesn't make a good game in itself. Descent to Undermountain was made before PLanescape, so it's simultaniously more obscure and old, but, well.
 

Lockkaliber

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One should also keep in mind that it's painfully obvious that PoE suffered a lot from trying to implement all the stretch goals while creating content for the rest of the game. Look at how empty the fortress is, it's basically just the bare bones mechanics in place, and how rushed act 3 feels compared to the rest of the game. They probably struggled to make the game a complete package under the pressure of the stretch goals, and I think this is a major factor in why MCA's writing was cut. At the start they probably imagined that they would be able to implement his characters in the way he intended, but as the project went on it should have been apparent that it wasn't possible. Why this was not communicated to MCA, and why they didn't cut shit characters like Pallegina and Sagani and focused on the only two things which make the game even touch on true greatness, is beyond me.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Who says his characters weren't cut early on? He never said when it happened.
 
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why they didn't cut shit characters like Pallegina and Sagani and focused on the only two things which make the game even touch on true greatness, is beyond me.
misogyny-kills-1_685cwyohi.jpg

checkyourprivilegemisyiq8v.jpg

:incloosive::balance:
 

Roguey

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The issue is that Josh also thinks of himself as a narratives person, while Chris also thinks of himself as a systems person.

This is news to me. Josh prefers to not do much writing at all, Chris has never been credited with any kind of systems work.

why they didn't cut shit characters like Pallegina and Sagani

The specific number of companions was a stretch goal.
 

Azarkon

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This is news to me. Josh prefers to not do much writing at all, Chris has never been credited with any kind of systems work.

The specific number of companions was a stretch goal.

I was under the impression that Josh was responsible for hashing out much of the Pillars of Eternity world. I could be mistaken of course.

As for Chris, he obviously does think of himself as a systems person when he keeps talking about systems design in these videos; and who designed the mechanics behind PST's version of D&D?
 

IHaveHugeNick

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One should also keep in mind that it's painfully obvious that PoE suffered a lot from trying to implement all the stretch goals while creating content for the rest of the game.

That's their own fucking fault though. The documentary makes it perfectly clear they were pulling stretch goals out of their ass at a speed of light, to keep the campaign going. Hopefully they learned the lesson and next time it will be all thought out from the start.
 

AwesomeButton

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That's their own fucking fault though. The documentary makes it perfectly clear they were pulling stretch goals out of their ass at a speed of light, to keep the campaign going. Hopefully they learned the lesson and next time it will be all thought out from the start.
You should also listen to the podcast that got released today. Josh openly admits they improvised stretch goals and main themes in the story. I'm coming to think it's a miracle how consistent the game feels even with all its problems. And these problems are noticed by less than 10% of the audience anyway.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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I'm not talking about popamole AAA gaming, I'm mostly talking about contemporary niche and hardcore games. What many of the previous generation devs fail to grasp, is that their audience consists mostly of grognards, who don't want to see another AAA attempt on indie budget. Tricky part is, to make a really great game developers in question need to innovate, improving on their old formulae, while taking in account good ideas from younger generation games, and cutting various frustrating parts from their own game formula, which often were in game design those days (due to technical limitations, or qurks and habits of game dev in olden days).

If only it were that easy.

Unfortunately I don't think its developers being out of touch with gaming, as much as playerbase being out of touch with itself.

Every "classic developer comes back" project that I followed, the playerbase immediately splits into two groups. Half wants innovation, the other half goes apeshit if devs dare to change as much as look of a mouse cursor. Half a year of forum flame wars to follow, the developer does a little bit of this, a little bit of that, eventually ending up with Frankenstein monster of a game. A game that doesn't have any clear focus, vision or direction, because of constant necessity to satisfy two completely opposing demands. That's in a nutshell every "oldschool" Kickstarter project ever made.

Basically, what gaming community wants, is the same kind of games they used to love, but completely different. If it sounds like a contradiction, that's because it is. And you cant talk sense into any of these people, because they're battling on ideological principles that any deviation from original formula means its not a true "Cult RPG 247" anymore. Or that everything needs to be thrown out, because its archaic and dated.

I Kickstarted a point&click adventure game, where people actually demanded that it must have excessive pixel hunting. Now, as far as shitty oldschool game mechanics go, pixel hunting is the worst. Back when adventure games where still huge, everybody hated that shit with passion. But bunch of people got into their heads that no pixel hunting means consolization, streamlining or whatever, developer caved in, and you end up with a game that deliberately uses the most retarded game mechanic ever devised in history of human race, because some people thought it would give them more oldschool cred.
 

AwesomeButton

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Grognards find out they can't enjoy games like they could 15 years ago. And blame it on the devs. :)

BTW, to be honest to the KSs, if it wasn't for the shitty stretch goals that financed mediocre games (becoming mediocre as a result of trying to satisfy the same stretch goals), we wouldn't even have the mediocre games.
 
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If only it were that easy.

Unfortunately I don't think its developers being out of touch with gaming, as much as playerbase being out of touch with itself.

Every "classic developer comes back" project that I followed, the playerbase immediately splits into two groups. Half wants innovation, the other half goes apeshit if devs dare to change as much as look of a mouse cursor. Half a year of forum flame wars to follow, the developer does a little bit of this, a little bit of that, eventually ending up with Frankenstein monster of a game. A game that doesn't have any clear focus, vision or direction, because of constant necessity to satisfy two completely opposing demands. That's in a nutshell every "oldschool" Kickstarter project ever made.

Basically, what gaming community wants, is the same kind of games they used to love, but completely different. If it sounds like a contradiction, that's because it is. And you cant talk sense into any of these people, because they're battling on ideological principles that any deviation from original formula means its not a true "Cult RPG 247" anymore. Or that everything needs to be thrown out, because its archaic and dated.

I Kickstarted a point&click adventure game, where people actually demanded that it must have excessive pixel hunting. Now, as far as shitty oldschool game mechanics go, pixel hunting is the worst. Back when adventure games where still huge, everybody hated that shit with passion. But bunch of people got into their heads that no pixel hunting means consolization, streamlining or whatever, developer caved in, and you end up with a game that deliberately uses the most retarded game mechanic ever devised in history of human race, because some people thought it would give them more oldschool cred.

Reminds me of the 'Poochie' episode on the Simpsons, where the Itchy and Scratchy producers get the results back from the focus group tests: 'So, you want a realistic, down-to-earth show... that's completely off-the-wall and swarming with magic robots?'

I don't know whether it's brilliant or tragic that the Simpsons basically threw their hands in the air and spelt out in advance exactly why they were never going to be able to avoid the post season 6 decline (personally, I'm a post season 3 decline theorist, but season 6 seems to be the broader consensus) even if they had the greatest writers in the world.

There are people on the Codex who genuinely believe that the early Sierra model of making the game unfinishable because you didn't do some completely counter-intuitive act, with no logical bearing upon the death-trap you eventually find yourself in, 2 hours and 3 chapters earlier. That shit led to the 'player can never die' crap in the same way that rednecks and anti-racism witch-hunters create each other.

Even Sierra realised it was bullshit, and their games got better as they worked harder at making sure that the cause of getting stuck was more rationally connected to the trap, and at giving the player enough foreshadowing that it could feel like a fair punishment for erring as a player instead of a 'fuck you, hahaha'. Yet people still take Kings Quest 1 and Leisure Suit Larry 2 as the height of Sierra adventure game design.

* on the other hand, the Leisure Suit Larry 2 'age test' quiz, with its accusations of 'YOU'RE A KID! GET OUT OF YOUR DADS GAMING DRAW YOU LITTLE SCAMP!' if you failed was awesome. At 10 years of age, my friends and I had enough fun playing that quiz that it didn't bother us that we kept getting locked out of the game - looking back, it was purely the age-protection stuff that convinced us that there had to be pixellated boobies worth seeing if we could just get far enough in the game; almost everything in the game itself was of the 'Carry On' suggest something naughty and laugh at it but never actually show/say it variety.
 
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