Guys, I've been enlightened! RTwP is not that good.

[Cowboy Moment]

RTwP is a fine combat system in my opinion, just not very well suited for fantasy RPGs. Games where it works well tend to be slower-paced, with the player making a smaller amount of macro-level decisions rather than babysitting each character individually. The issue with combat in IE games is that it's literally an RTS combat system with pause tacked on, involving engagements with small amounts of units. So it's essentially a whole game of those Starcraft missions where you only have a small squad of units and no base. Thing is, the challenge of those missions comes from actually controlling your guys in real time. So then you add more options to the system in order to have the player actually make some meaningful decisions, and end up with a Frankenstein of a combat system that's neither here nor there.

I also think that people who actually like IE games for the combat mechanics (as opposed to enemy and encounter design, huge variety of spells, and so on) simply dislike thinking ahead and being punished for making mistakes. In Total War games, if you send a unit fuck knows where with the intention of flanking the enemy, and realize halfway through that it's a bad idea, you can't just instantly turn it around, shit takes time just like it would in reality, and you suffer the consequences of making a bad decision. And if the unit you want to pull back has already engaged the enemy, you're fucked. This is something that doesn't really exist in IE games, if your dude is in a bad spot, you order him to GTFO and he does so promptly. During the Torment combat vote, you could read all sorts of pro-RTwP arguments about how it lets you "adjust your tactics whenever you want to" - which I translate to "I don't want to think about what I'm doing and suffer any consequences of my mistakes".

 

[laclongquan]

Not troll at all but I love the real time/AP system of Fallout Tactic.

Sure, at smaller squad, TB works fine. But when enemies' armor and HP change from human to super mutants, it can be brutal to go turn by turn with them, even with numerical advantage. At that time it's necessary to set up real time system for ambushes.

 

[Owlish]

I hate it when you have to chase down the lambs for slaughter, EG in Conquistador when the villagers would run away from you and you had to tediously move across the huge map of tiles in turns. I also hated battles in Fallout 1 or 2 where you had to wait on the turns of rats.

TB when it's good is really good and fun, when it's bad, it's a tedious it's a chore and it's fucking boring. Combat isn't my favorite thing in CRPGs anyway, and constantly fighting crap mobs sucks, at least with RTwP the chore is usually over quickly. The big fun battles like the one in WL2

Spoiler

at the prison

is cool, but in that game 95% of them are mostly just slow and boring, it'd be nice if you could get through the game and see most of the content without having to fight every 2 minutes.

 

[FuriousGamer87]

Disclaimer: I am biased towards TB, so take this with a large dose of cracksalt
To put my $0.02 in, TB is great if you design each encounters to be unique and skip on the grinding, so each combat is fulfilling and have meaning in the sense of things (like ToEE).
It also work extremely well if the options available to the players is robust (see ToEE) and continue to increase those throughout the entire game, not just static number upgrades.
TB works really bad when your gameplay consist of very few options that could simply be assigned to a DotA 9-squares keypad and works better. If this fact didn't change at all throughout the game, with exception of static number upgrades, then TB is shit for that game.
RT or RTwP works in a sense that if the gameplay and its design in your game is pretty bad, it allow people to gloss over it and concentrate on the better part of your game, be it story, exploration, art or music.
If you want grind in your game and trash mobs, RT is better.
Also RT works well with limited options (see DotA keypad) but have massive amount of combat content.
TB works well with a few but important combat mindset including a robust amount of options.

 

[J_C]

The biggest one is the way RTwP lets the player focus on important decisions and not waste tons of time on unimportant stuff. In RTwP, you pause only when you need to do something important,

Now this was true in the IE games, where you didn't have too much abilities. As i said in my post, this is one of the reason why I was OK with RtWP in the IE games. You set up the targets for your party, cast one or two spells and you are set. From than on, you only pause if you have to heal. But in DA:O and PoE, where you have lots of abilites with cooldown, you have to pause much much more often, because you constantly have to manage these abilities, targeting enemies.

I'd also like to add, that I'm not saying TB can't be bad. If it is designed badly, it is BAD. And felipepepe might be right, if 7,62 caliber is truly good, I accept that you can make RtWP work, but I admit I haven't played that game.

Also, when I say RtWP, I think about RPGs, and not RTS games. I like the pauising features in RTS games, they work well, and needed in games with a lot of units.

 

[HiddenX]

J_C - you are enlightened now, move on to the next level and recognize the fun of unbalanced parties, dump stats, trash skills, hard counters and old school mechanics like degrading weapons, necessity to eat food, drink water...

... your next mission: convert Roguey

 

[imweasel]

So after playing PoE you think RtwP is shit J_C? Why am I not surprised.

Truth is, both RTwP and TB are great if done right.

 

[J_C]

J_C - you are enlightened now, move on to the next level and recognize the fun of unbalanced parties, dump stats, trash skills, hard counters and old school mechanics like degrading weapons, necessity to eat food, drink water...

That is unnecessary. I already knew that those are fun mechanics

... your next mission: convert Roguey

What? Impossibru!

 

[Frusciante]

So, my history with RPGs is that IMO the IE games are among the greatest RPGs ever made. All of them. I just love them. They are not perfect, but I immensely enjoy even IWD 2, or BG1, although they are considered the worse among the IE games. I even enjoyed NWN 1 and 2 more or less.

I always thought, that I like the RTwP mechanic in them, I had fun with the games afterall. Regarding TB games, I never was a huge TB fan. I liked them, but a game being TB didn't do anything for me. There are a few big exceptions: JA2 is one of the greatest game ever, just like Heroes 2-3 (and Disciples 2). Before the kickstarter boom, I haven't played a proper TB game for years (Eador is the exception, it is great). So when Pillars of Eternity was announced, I was happy that it will be a RTwP game.

Now, recently some high profile KS games were released, and I obviously had to play them. Expeditions: Conquistador, Shadowrun, Blackguards, Divinity OS and now Wasteland 2. And I realised, that i love the TB system, where I don't have to pause constantly, and I can take my time. And now as I think back, it striked me, I didn't like the IE games because of RTwP, but because of everything else. The artstyle, the music, the story, the characters, the D&D ruleset, I loved those, the RTwP mechanic was just something I beared with. And it was not that bad, I don't hate it now, but I understand that everything would have been better with Turn based.

I also understand now, that in the IE games, thanks to the D&D ruleset, there wasn't as much need for micromanaging your party, as in PoE. There were a few abilities, some spells which you could only cast once, and that's it. So I didn't need to pause that much, maybe that's why I didn't cared about being RTwP.

But as Dragon Age showed me, and the route PoE is going, if you have MMO like mechanics with cooldowns and lots of abilities which are constantly used, pausing all the time is not that fun. And it provides a lot of problems for the developers themselves (helloooo, Josh). I can deal with it, if other parts of the game are good, but I won't love it ever again.

So, I just like to take back everything, what I said the RTwP being better than TB. And I'm happy that Torment Numenera will be TB.

Nice brofist harvesting. Suck up to the codex hive mind.

 

[Severian Silk]

I like TB because you can pause and have a smoke or take a sip of your soda.

The issue with combat in IE games is that it's literally an RTS combat system with pause tacked on, involving engagements with small amounts of units.

Homeworld had pausing and issuing orders as well. Maybe others?

Nice brofist harvesting. Suck up to the codex hive mind.

Battle of the fanboys!

 

[Starwars]

I tend to prefer turnbased but if all RPGs were turnbased then... that'd suck.

RTwP tends to be a bit clusterfucky in my opinion but I'll gladly take it for some variety in my RPG combat. With the sudden onslaught of turnbased products, I'm actually starting to be a bit happy with PoE being RTwP as opposed to turnbased, which was definitely not the case when it was first revealed.

 

[J_C]

So, my history with RPGs is that IMO the IE games are among the greatest RPGs ever made. All of them. I just love them. They are not perfect, but I immensely enjoy even IWD 2, or BG1, although they are considered the worse among the IE games. I even enjoyed NWN 1 and 2 more or less.

I always thought, that I like the RTwP mechanic in them, I had fun with the games afterall. Regarding TB games, I never was a huge TB fan. I liked them, but a game being TB didn't do anything for me. There are a few big exceptions: JA2 is one of the greatest game ever, just like Heroes 2-3 (and Disciples 2). Before the kickstarter boom, I haven't played a proper TB game for years (Eador is the exception, it is great). So when Pillars of Eternity was announced, I was happy that it will be a RTwP game.

Now, recently some high profile KS games were released, and I obviously had to play them. Expeditions: Conquistador, Shadowrun, Blackguards, Divinity OS and now Wasteland 2. And I realised, that i love the TB system, where I don't have to pause constantly, and I can take my time. And now as I think back, it striked me, I didn't like the IE games because of RTwP, but because of everything else. The artstyle, the music, the story, the characters, the D&D ruleset, I loved those, the RTwP mechanic was just something I beared with. And it was not that bad, I don't hate it now, but I understand that everything would have been better with Turn based.

I also understand now, that in the IE games, thanks to the D&D ruleset, there wasn't as much need for micromanaging your party, as in PoE. There were a few abilities, some spells which you could only cast once, and that's it. So I didn't need to pause that much, maybe that's why I didn't cared about being RTwP.

But as Dragon Age showed me, and the route PoE is going, if you have MMO like mechanics with cooldowns and lots of abilities which are constantly used, pausing all the time is not that fun. And it provides a lot of problems for the developers themselves (helloooo, Josh). I can deal with it, if other parts of the game are good, but I won't love it ever again.

So, I just like to take back everything, what I said the RTwP being better than TB. And I'm happy that Torment Numenera will be TB.

Nice brofist harvesting. Suck up to the codex hive mind.

One must know how to gather the most brofists.

 

[Athelas]

I also think that people who actually like IE games for the combat mechanics (as opposed to enemy and encounter design, huge variety of spells, and so on) simply dislike thinking ahead and being punished for making mistakes. In Total War games, if you send a unit fuck knows where with the intention of flanking the enemy, and realize halfway through that it's a bad idea, you can't just instantly turn it around, shit takes time just like it would in reality, and you suffer the consequences of making a bad decision. And if the unit you want to pull back has already engaged the enemy, you're fucked. This is something that doesn't really exist in IE games, if your dude is in a bad spot, you order him to GTFO and he does so promptly. During the Torment combat vote, you could read all sorts of pro-RTwP arguments about how it let's you "adjust your tactics whenever you want to" - which I translate to "I don't want to think about what I'm doing and suffer any consequences of my mistakes".

Movement isn't free in the IE games in a strict sense - time elapses while you move your characters during which the enemy can do stuff. If your character is near death, it doesn't matter that you can move him away if in the meanwile he's struck by an arrow, a spell or a fast-moving melee enemy. In a game like BG2 a bevy of status ailments (Held, Stunned, Webbed, etc.) also places limits to your ability to move around.

Besides, the problem you describe isn't really unique to RTwP games. In the Fallouts, you can attack a melee critter with a melee weapon, move back with the remaining AP and on its turn the enemy will only have sufficient AP to get within melee range without attacking, meaning you can repeat the tactic of attack + move back with impunity until it's dead without taking any damage and wasting any ammo.

 

[Untermensch]

the fun of unbalanced parties

I agree.... to an extent. Perfect balance is unachievable.

the fun of dump stats

No

trash skills

Fuck no.

the fun of hard counters

Yes

degrading weapons

Yes

 

[HiddenX]

Without dump stats the optimal point distribution for each character class looks exactly like this:

STR = 10
INT= 10
CON = 10
CHA =10
DEX= 10
WIS = 10

very interesting

And I love trash skills like <collecting mushrooms>, <picking flowers>, <animal whisperer> etc. ...

 

[Shadowfang]

Welcome to the light, brother.
Now play E5 Brigade and 7.62 High Calibre and become confused.

 

[V_K]

The whole "TB is slow and tedious" argument doesn't take into account the possibility blobber-style combat, which on average is even faster that RTwP, but - if designed right - maintains all the tactical possiblities of a proper TB. Non combat-centric RPGs are much better off as blobbers, really.

 

[Declinator]

blobber-style combat...if designed right - maintains all the tactical possiblities of a proper TB

It absolutely does not maintain even half the tactical possibilities of non-blobber combat! Combat without positioning will never even begin to approach the tactical depths of JA2 or even - and I hate to say this - BG2.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I find the IE games RTwP "enjoyable" since it's all flash and no substance. The cool spell effects coupled with the fast paced combat where encounters are usually done and over before they even began makes it bearable. If it was dragged out and micro hell then it would've been no fun at all.

 

[V_K]

blobber-style combat...if designed right - maintains all the tactical possiblities of a proper TB

It absolutely does not maintain even half the tactical possibilities of non-blobber combat! Combat without positioning will never even begin to approach the tactical depths of JA2 or even - and I hate to say this - BG2.

I don't see why not. Everything you can do with positioning (backstabbing, shielding etc), you can implement as character abilites. It'll be more abstract, of course, but will get the job done.

 

[a Goat]

I wonder if it would be better if you only have the option to pause the game once, every fixed number of seconds. Eh, thats just phase based.

Transistor much?

I think quite a few JRPG's used that system too.

 

[Declinator]

blobber-style combat...if designed right - maintains all the tactical possiblities of a proper TB

It absolutely does not maintain even half the tactical possibilities of non-blobber combat! Combat without positioning will never even begin to approach the tactical depths of JA2 or even - and I hate to say this - BG2.

I don't see why not. Everything you can do with positioning (backstabbing, shielding etc), you can implement as character abilites. It'll be more abstract, of course, but will get the job done.

Oh, even positional advantages like roofs, cover, or a distance to the enemy that makes your accurate weapon more effective than the enemies'? How about blast radii, luring an enemy into a trap, flanking maneuvers, or even field-of-view? X-Com as a blobber would be a hilarious downgrade because of the lack of FOV alone.

It may be possible to create an abstraction of flanking/backstabbing in a blobber but let's face it, it's not quite the same thing to choose "Flank" ability with a certain possibility of success and actually maneuvering your characters to a flanking position over several turns outside the enemies' notice and opening fire.

 

[V_K]

Oh, even positional advantages like roofs, cover, or a distance to the enemy that makes your accurate weapon more effective than the enemies'? How about blast radii, luring an enemy into a trap, flanking maneuvers, or even field-of-view? X-Com as a blobber would be a hilarious downgrade because of the lack of FOV alone.

And how many classic RPGs have all that, exactly?
Of course, blobber combat won't fit a combat-centric game like X-Com or Blackguards, where it's the main (and sometimes only) core mechanic. But for a traditional RPG that aims to achieve a balance between combat, exploration, NPC interaction and other stuff, it's a pretty good way to make combat faster while not loosing too much in terms of tactics. A better one than RTwP, that is. I have little doubt that, for example, NWN2 or Drakensang would be much better games if they were blobbers.

 

[Sensuki]

Nothing wrong with RTwP but when you suddenly make most units require a fair bit of micromanagement it turns the game into a pause fest, which isn't exactly fun or smooth gameplay.

 

[Athelas]

I have little doubt that, for example, NWN2 or Drakensang would be much better games if they were blobbers.

Saying that RPG's with bad combat would have improved combat if they were blobbers isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the blobber genre.