Is save scumming objectively bad ?

[Silva]

Recently I've noticed most games are avoiding the save scumming path. From non-stop ones like Crusader Kings and Dwarf Fortress and King of Dragon Pass which incentives you to accept failures and go on like a man, to die-a-lot games which make deaths an integral part of evolving like Dark Souls, to ridiculously easy games where the challenge gets sidelined like in Kentucky Route Zero and Superbrothers Sword & Sworcery.

Is this a trend ? Are the developers discovering that clicking reload a thousand times is bad for the hobby ?

 

[Gregz]

Nope, in fact some of my favorite games require it for enjoyment.

Specifically: Zangband, NetHack, M&B:WB etc.

Others do play games like NetHack on default (hardcore) and even enter online tournaments. For those types dying is part of the fun. As for me, I just can't stomach losing to RNG after days of hard won progress. So between not playing a game, or really enjoying it with a little cheating, I'll do the cheating. Games are for fun, people tend to forget that.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Can you quick save and quick load on a console?

 

[Johannes]

Nope, in fact some of my favorite games require it for enjoyment.

Specifically: Zangband, NetHack, M&B:WB etc.

Others do play games like NetHack on default (hardcore) and even enter online tournaments. For those types dying is part of the fun. As for me, I just can't stomach losing to RNG after days of hard won progress. So between not playing a game, or really enjoying it with a little cheating, I'll do the cheating. Games are for fun, people tend to forget that.

You're free to play games as you like, but saying losing in Nethack after days of progress is due to just RNG, is total bullshit. If you'd stop savescumming maybe you'd learn to play it better.

 

[Lilura]

save scumming in M&B:WB

Lrn2play.

 

[CaptainCoxwaggle]

Yes, allowing for players to backtrack their actions without consequences either trivialises any challenge the game offers or allows them to simply brute force their way forward slowly with RNG which is equally unfun. If RNG is the only causation for failure that's just shitty game mechanics or you need to l2p to stack the odds in your favour.

Permadeath may be excessive in long games such as ADOM but works well in shorter ones such as FTL. I personally prefer save hubs so that longterm progress can be preserved while failure is nearly as punishing by forcing the player to redo a section.

 

[Machocruz]

I've save scummed in M&B:Wb when I realized how effective Rhodok crossbowman were against sieges. I reloaded and decided to go after easier targets rather than spend time replenishing my forces. Didn't put one dent in the fun I was having with the game.

I also save scum in DF when a construction I visualize doesn't work out how I want it. Diminishes Fun but game is still fun.

 

[Gregz]

Nope, in fact some of my favorite games require it for enjoyment.

Specifically: Zangband, NetHack, M&B:WB etc.

Others do play games like NetHack on default (hardcore) and even enter online tournaments. For those types dying is part of the fun. As for me, I just can't stomach losing to RNG after days of hard won progress. So between not playing a game, or really enjoying it with a little cheating, I'll do the cheating. Games are for fun, people tend to forget that.

You're free to play games as you like, but saying losing in Nethack after days of progress is due to just RNG, is total bullshit. If you'd stop savescumming maybe you'd learn to play it better.

Playing games better doesn't interest me, having more fun playing games does. It's an important philosophical difference imo.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

At what point does it become save scumming? Is anything beyond saving to quit scummy behavior? Is getting killed and reloading save-scumming? Is saving after overcoming every dangerous scenario a scumbag move? Or is it only save-scumming when you continually reload to beat an RNG?

When you're allowed to save whenever, wherever, and as often as you'd like there really is no way to know.

 

[RK47]

Oh I missed.
Reload.
Oh I missed.
Reload.
Oh I missed.
Reload.
Oh I - how can this be?!
:Jagged Alliance 2:

 

[octavius]

Save scumming is for pussies.




























I do it all the time.

 

[A horse of course]

I save scummed like crazy for agent actions in total war games, including quitting and restarting the game to clear the seed. I've always felt factors that encourage save scumming (e.g. RNG skill checks) should be dealt with by being either/or (you can pick this lock or you can't, although "you can pick this lock if you do a minigame that woill be practically impossible if your skill isn't high enough" would also work in hybrids) or simply too numerous to be worth savescumming for (people might reload the result of their opening spell but they're not going to reload for the 50+ dice rolls that take place for the rest of the battle).

 

[Norfleet]

There are a LOT of games out there which essentially *ARE* shitty RNG gates, though. Take, for instance, a great many games where you're supposed to save some kind of mindless AI character. The problem? Whether or not the idiot lives is decided essentially at random, since it is physically impossible for you to actually influence the situation since you start on the other side of the map, and it is entirely possible for this character to do something stupid and get killed before you ever get your first turn.

Then, of course, there are games where the direction of the game can move in two or more totally random directions...one of which you have either already seen before, or is simply inferior, and, of course, there's no actual way to control this result in any way. A whole lot of games seem to have been made treating save-scumming as practically a design decision, given that, mathematically speaking, there would be no other way to reach a given outcome as the player has no other way to influence which path the game takes.

Yes, allowing for players to backtrack their actions without consequences either trivialises any challenge the game offers or allows them to simply brute force their way forward slowly with RNG which is equally unfun. If RNG is the only causation for failure that's just shitty game mechanics or you need to l2p to stack the odds in your favour.

Failure isn't necessarily the reason why a player may save/load a game. Branching or simple experimentation is another one. Often I will save a game and then take an action, knowing that, regardless of the outcome, I'm going to reload the game anyway, simply because I want to see what this button does. I have no intention of actually playing through this outcome, but dammit, I want to SEE it. The "Many Deaths Of You" genre is big on this. You KNOW that this thing is a terrible, terrible idea, but you just want to see it. How many times have you intentionally killed yourself in Space Quest just to see the resulting scene? I mean, you know not to do it, right up to the point where you save before you do, but you just want to SEE it.

 

[Sranchammer]

Wesnoth...

 

[Night Goat]

Bad? Good? Who cares? We all do it anyway.

 

[A horse of course]

Failure isn't necessarily the reason why a player may save/load a game. Branching or simple experimentation is another one. Often I will save a game and then take an action, knowing that, regardless of the outcome, I'm going to reload the game anyway, simply because I want to see what this button does. I have no intention of actually playing through this outcome, but dammit, I want to SEE it. The "Many Deaths Of You" genre is big on this. You KNOW that this thing is a terrible, terrible idea, but you just want to see it. How many times have you intentionally killed yourself in Space Quest just to see the resulting scene? I mean, you know not to do it, right up to the point where you save before you do, but you just want to SEE it.

Good point. You are clearly a connoisseur of the tentacle h-game genre, like myself.

 

[octavius]

To be serious, I try to avoid save scumming.
But some games are just impossible to complete without it, like Wizardry 4.
Other games are borderline shitty and you want to complete them, but not waste too much time doing it. Or the game has outstayed its welcome and you want to see the end soon.
And as Norfleet pointed out, sometimes you want to check out "what ifs".
The most annoying times when I save scum is when the dice rolls are so outrageously stacked in the computer's favour that you are punished for playing fair and square.

Generally I prefer games that don't encourage save scumming. Old turn based blobbers like Bard's Tale, Wizardry and some of the Might&Magic games were great in that regard, since you could play them 99 % Iron Man, and not even party death meant Game Over.

 

[Norfleet]

Good point. You are clearly a connoisseur of the tentacle h-game genre, like myself.

That was a scenario that hadn't actually occurred to me, but I suppose that's another place people will "save-scum", for probably the same reasons. Filthy, heathen reasons.

The most annoying times when I save scum is when the dice rolls are so outrageously stacked in the computer's favour that you are punished for playing fair and square.

And then you have the games where it's technically POSSIBLE to play in an extremely risk-averse fashion, but this results in an extremely tedious gameplay, which could be avoided through a simple save-reload probing. Yes, you COULD advance a millimeter/tile at a time, waiting between each step to pull the monsters one at at time, then bash them individually, but this is extremely tedious, and not as interesting as simply intentionally running in on a save to probe the environment, then setting yourself up with foreknowledge of where they are for an interesting battle.

 

[Jick Magger]

I remember constantly save-scumming during my playthrough of New Vegas. Not due to any difficulty from the game, but because I was constantly worried I'd run into some bug that'd basically ruin any progress I had made.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

in deus ex its practically a legitimate mechanic

 

[Balor]

Well, in a game that is balanced around permadeath and random rewards savescumming is an 'uber easy mode' - otherwise the game would either be unbeatable and/or boring due to having to play extremely risk-averse indeed.

In a game where a single misclick means 'game over, start all over again' it is not savescumming, it is part of game design... not the best, perhaps.

 

[Space Satan]

It all comes down to fun. At some games I never savescum. In others - I don't want to start BG2 anew just because after beating 90% of the game I was desintegrated by instadeath spell.

 

[octavius]

It all comes down to fun. At some games I never savescum. In others - I don't want to start BG2 anew just because after beating 90% of the game I was desintegrated by instadeath spell.

That's not save scumming, just reloading due to game over.

 

[spekkio]

in deus ex its practically a legitimate mechanic

No.
Thief on the other hand...

 

[Destroid]

I used to when I was younger but now I prefer to live with the consequences of my actions in games.