Is the New Decline(tm) of cRPGs imminent?

[Mustawd]

I don't know where you have seen an Incline from witch we are supposed to be Declining again

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ine-tm-of-crpgs-imminent.111220/#post-4753881

 

[zeitgeist]

I don't know where you have seen an Incline from witch we are supposed to be Declining again

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ine-tm-of-crpgs-imminent.111220/#post-4753881

Which ones on the list are so much better than the classics of their respective genres/subgenres that one could call it an incline though? Or are we only using a very small section of the timeline?

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Which ones on the list are so much better than the classics of their respective genres/subgenres that one could call it an incline though? Or are we only using a very small section of the timeline?

That would depend entirely on which games you think are the 'classics' and which timeline you are choosing to present...

 

[Zanzoken]

It's not as if PoE, WL2, and D:OS were flawless additions to the genre.

You want flawless?

No, but I do want RPGs that have strong points without being overburdened by garbage. How many decades have people been developing RPGs now?

Instead here's what we got:

PoE -- Pretty art and graphics, otherwise it ranges from underwhelming to absolute shit. The encounter design is probably the low point, just hordes and hordes of trash mobs and copy-paste battles.
D:OS -- Fun combat (really fun), good music, makes you giggle here and there. But writing is crap, world is boring, game is ugly, crafting and itemization are straight-out-of-an-MMO trash. And it falls flat after Act 1.
WL2 -- Cool setting and reactivity, otherwise I'm not sure since I got bored of it before too long.

I'm not trying to be an edgelord here, but their "fundamentals" so to speak still have plenty of room for improvement. So why go for all these expensive, casual-friendly features if it's not a cash grab?

Remember this:

Lastly, it's important to understand the context of Wasteland 2. RPGs have essentially been dead since 2005. Wasteland 2 is the second game and the instigator of what is probably an RPG renaissance. Wasteland 2 isn't just important for being a good game, it's important for being the first stepping stone on the way to Wasteland 3, Pillars of Eternity, Torment 2, countless other RPGs that would have never been made if inXile hadn't taken the risk to show that people still care about this genre. Wasteland 2 is the game that reopened the floodgates for RPG development.

Real RPGs.

The hope was that the KS devs would give us solid RPG franchises like in the old days. Not games that were sorta maybe decent with sequels that went right back to popamole.

 

[Durwyn]

There are few reasons that the age of incline belongs to days long gone and is just a mirage:

1) Groundbreaking games already happened. Fallout 1/2, Baldurs Gate, Arcanum, Torment, [insert other codex classic here] were released when cRPGs were still a niche market, as the entire gaming market TBH. It was targeted at nerds and nerds were more or less who used computers for gaming then. Nowadays gaming became mainstream and is considered perfectly normal human behaviour, not restricted to alleged basement dwelers who spent all days at deciphering criptic hints from game manuals. Since it became mainstream, business welfare and market research tear out the heart and passions from game developers and their designs. It is the law of nature that everything that becomes mainstream goes downhill by catering to the common crowd.

2) Our beloved "Citizen Kanes" of gaming never really sold really well, if I remember correctly. Not sure about Fallouts and BG, but I'm pretty sure that Arcanum and Torment bombed pretty hard.

3) Nostalgia works in mysterious ways. Childhood memories of climbing a tree may seem like reaching the top of Mount Everest after years. Some of us constantly reminisce those thrills and memories that belong to past from the jaded perspecitve of a consicious adult being that "knows it better now".
"All is shit" and such. Most of those games are like first sex, might not be the best in your life but still you will remember it and compare all next to it.

Apart from that I'm still mad that some developers constantly fuck up at delivering what their core fanbase wants most. Obsidian and Piranha excel at it.

Drunk posting out...

 

[Mozg]

Yeah, it's shit. The nostalgia games were "supposed" to be a bridge to picking up where the late '90s RPGs left off, into glorious RPG future. Instead they're making sequels to and reused engine slam dunks of the nostalgia games.

 

[SniperHF]

Which ones on the list are so much better than the classics of their respective genres/subgenres that one could call it an incline though?

That would be a peak, not an incline.

List of mostly good games

Pretty much. I'd also add it's probably the case that the sort of AA Larian/InXile/Obsidian/HBS group which gets more of the focus probably allows for the market to be of significant size for the smaller shops to operate. I'm not really expecting the bigger guys to deliver the one that dethrones Fallout/PST or whatever your own favorite is. But so long as they provide that meatshield bringing players to the table, making the market bigger in terms of publicity, and making generally okay to good games themselves the AA's are a net positive. I don't think the ITS/Stygs of the world move tens of thousands of copies in a world without the AAs. I'm willing to hear the other side of that argument but I'm skeptical.

 

[Lhynn]

Underrail
Age of Decadence
Serpent in the Staglands
Expeditions: Conquistador
Xenonaughts
Neo Scavenger
Fallout 1.5: Resurrection
Legend of Grimrock
Duskers
Stasis
Hard West
Might & Magic X
OpenXcom
Primordia
Shadowrun Seattle/Berlin/DongKong
Sorcery!



Those are just the fun ones I've played recently. Then we have these to look forward to:

Battle Brothers
Copper Dreams
Stellar Tactics
Rogue System
Beautiful Desolation
Torment
Stygian
Battletech
Bard's Tale 4
Eisenwald: Blood of November
No Truce with the Furies
Dungeons of Aledorn
Pathologic remake
Star Traders 2



I don't see a problem, unless you're really into AAA games.

Forgot to add tale of wuxia.

And yeah, people claiming we got nothing are too hung up on AAA and mid sized developers

 

[Ivan]

what is a AAA rpg? would BG2 have been called AAA in its time?

 

[Hobo Elf]

what is a AAA rpg? would BG2 have been called AAA in its time?

AAA just means the budget size. I dunno if BG2 had a big budget, but I'd assume that it did, and in that case it would be considered an AAA title.

 

[Mozg]

^Just compare team sizes.

The digital distribution era is obviously good for garage dev, but the real hope was innovative midsize development at the scale of the late '90s Klassics and it ain't gonna happen. They're gonna run the nostalgia games into the ground then die.

 

[Lhynn]

The digital distribution era is obviously good for garage dev, but the real hope was innovative midsize development at the scale of the late '90s Klassics and it ain't gonna happen. They're gonna run the nostalgia games into the ground then die.

Harebrained and Larian sure seem to be about to file for bankruptcy. Obsidian is on its last leg. Mid sized developers are doooooomed. Theres no place in this market for them, people will stop giving them money aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaany second now.

Lets not even mention that titles with similar complexity to those we got in the 90s are now possible for a fraction of the money and expertise. So the size of the team is really irrelevant if all you are looking for is to sate your 90s classics nostalgia. Or even if you are looking for innovative games with presentation similar to that of 90s games.

Im sorry, its really hard to think of a future where we wont have anything worth playing like it happened 10 years ago.

 

[mondblut]

If you're not careful, you'll just turn into a second-tier Lyric Suite...

Better than turning into a second-tier IncendiaryDevice

 

[shihonage]

Most modern CRPGs are either AAA garbage or indie crap specifically targeting nostalgia, rather than self-expression and innovation. Both usually fail to capture the appeal and character of an old-school CRPG. You can't feign research, ingenuity, and a sense of wonder.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Ur mom

Ur mom.

But are you going to play or not? In what year was the last cRPG that satisfied whatever criteria you hold so dear made and what was it called?

Spoiler

edit:

Ooo, look at all the monocled codexers who are dripping from the codex's walls to slam every 'negative' rating available on me... :

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[J_C]

It's not as if PoE, WL2, and D:OS were flawless additions to the genre.

You want flawless?

No, but I do want RPGs that have strong points without being overburdened by garbage. How many decades have people been developing RPGs now?

Instead here's what we got:

PoE -- Pretty art and graphics, otherwise it ranges from underwhelming to absolute shit. The encounter design is probably the low point, just hordes and hordes of trash mobs and copy-paste battles.
D:OS -- Fun combat (really fun), good music, makes you giggle here and there. But the story and writing are crap, world is boring, game is ugly, crafting and itemization are straight-out-of-an-MMO trash. And it falls flat after Act 1.
WL2 -- Cool setting and reactivity, otherwise I'm not sure since I got bored of it before too long.

Let me continue:
Planescape Torment: It hat good story and reactivity, it had shit combat and character system.
Baldur's Gate 2: it had good encounters and mediocre story.
Age of Decadence: it had good reactivity and combat, medicore art, underwhelming exploration and basic story.
Etc.

So let's not kid ourselves that there was a holy grail of games in the past which had no weak points.

As for your OP:

Romances are starting to creep in too.

No romances in PoE, PoE2 (probably), Tyranny, WL2, WL3, BT4, DOS, DOS2 (AFAIK). Where are those romances you are talking about?

 

[Somberlain]

The games of old weren't perfect but new games like WL2 and PoE are just shit.

 

[thesheeep]

With the way digital distribution works by now and even small devs are able to find their audience, I doubt we will see a full decline at any point.
I almost long for one as I already don't have enough time to play all the games I want to.

Can't wait to retire

 

[J_C]

The games of old weren't perfect but new games like WL2 and PoE are just shit.

 

[mondblut]

Ur mom

Ur mom.

But are you going to play or not? In what year was the last cRPG that satisfied whatever criteria you hold so dear made and what was it called?

I don't even know why I haven't still ignored an insufferable fanboy shill like you, but it was called Temple of Elemental Evil.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I don't even know why I haven't still ignored an insufferable fanboy shill like you, but it was called Temple of Elemental Evil.

Feel free to elaborate on what decline games I supposedly fanboy shill... (yup, you wont find any... you're just exposing your tendency towards popamole decline with a false assumption based on codex bollox tag #384,629).

ToEE had an interesting combat system that could definitely be applied to a new game, but the game itself was not very interesting beyond that, in practically every conceivable regard. If a game came out from a Kickstarter of comparable quality to ToEE then I've no doubt the codex would tear it a new one. Further, ToEE was another game which used D&D for the aspect you considered great. Everyone knows that the lack of decent D&D gaming is the fault of the owners of the D&D license and little to do with independent developers. Further, ToEE used generic fantasy as its backdrop, not as generic as most generic settings, but likely generic enough to cause all the biggest retards here to immediately scream "Oh no, not another generic fantasy game, DECLINE" upon its first appearance on kickstarter.

Considering well implemented D&D combat appears to be your only criteria, how come you disliked Knights of the Chalice?

 

[mondblut]

Feel free to elaborate on what decline games I supposedly fanboy shill...

On whatever topic you post, it's always "hey guize, why so negative, everything is awsum, all them developers are great talented amazing people, let's all jerk each other off for the sake of peace and love". Is that prozac in your water, or you were born an annoying optimistic retard, either way you are insufferable.

Or maybe I am mistaking you for someone else. That one also had a "fargo fanboy" tag. Apologies if that's the case. But you sure sounded like him.

ToEE had an interesting combat system that could definitely be applied to a new game, but the game itself was not very interesting beyond that, in practically every conceivable regard.

It had advanced mechanics, solid combat and quality dungeons. Anything beyond that is largely irrelevant.

Everyone knows that the lack of decent D&D gaming is the fault of the owners of the D&D license and little to do with independent developers.

Funny that you have immediately namedropped Knights of the Chalice. Google "OGL".

Further, ToEE used generic fantasy as its backdrop, not as generic as most generic settings, but likely generic enough to cause all the biggest retards here to immediately scream "Oh no, not another generic fantasy game, DECLINE" upon its first appearance on kickstarter.

Not something I personally would ever complain about. Will take generic fantasy over any "look, I am so uniqwe and speshul" dildopunk clusterfuck of a setting.

Considering well implemented D&D combat appears to be your only criteria, how come you disliked Knights of the Chalice?

Who said I did?

Individual autists quietly hammering out their object of love with little regard for the market are not a subject of this topic. In truth, the more decline is there, the better for their niche. Your lukewarm nostalgiaxploitation products by "struggling AA developers" directly prevent more Knightses of the Chalices from being made.

 

[Bubbles]

Then we have the "AA" class of devs that were brought back by Kickstarter -- namely Obsidian, Larian, and inXile.

Both Obsidian and inXile have been describing themselves as "triple-A" for a while now, and Larian are boasting that D:OS 2 is the most expensive top-down RPG ever made. If there are any AA devs left, their names elude me.

 

[J_C]

AA was always a bullshit title anyway, I don't know who "invented" it. Is there a "A" category too?

 

[Bubbles]

AA was always a bullshit title anyway, I don't know who "invented" it. Is there a "A" category too?

Yeah, that's Harebrained Schemes.