"Japan used to rule video games, so what happened?"

[Lyric Suite]

Even in the "Golden Age of PC Gaming", Nintendo and the Playstation were king.

You seem to be mistaking economic superiority for actual superiority. Master race PC games didn't sell as much as consoltarded Playstation shit. Wow, news at 11. Japanese companies never cared about anything else but exploiting the popamolers. Microsoft found a way to steal that from them and now all of a sudden we are supposed to mourn a market which never wanted to move past the model set by the Atari seemingly forever. Fuck them. The collapse of the Japanese market is the least of our problems.

 

[Tehdagah]

Konami and Square (Capcom too, but in a lesser degree) are into 'cinematic gaming' since the PS1.

Nope, they made games with cinematics not whole games made by cinematics.

About half of Metal Gear Solid 1 is made of cinematics. This is way more than most modern games.

You are underestimating the amount of cut-scenes (sometimes unskippable - see Final Fantasy) in some old games.

The whole introduction of Final Fantasy X , goddammit...

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Even in the "Golden Age of PC Gaming", Nintendo and the Playstation were king.

You seem to be mistaking economic superiority for actual superiority. Master race PC games didn't sell as much as consoltarded Playstation shit. Wow, news at 11. Japanese companies never cared about anything else but exploiting the popamolers. Microsoft found a way to steal that from them and now all of a sudden we are supposed to mourn a market which never wanted to move past the model set by the Atari seemingly forever. Fuck them. The collapse of the Japanese market is the least of our problems.

Exploiting the popamolers with what, turn-based JRPGs?

Go look at the list of bestselling PS2 games bro, only thing there that qualifies as popamole is GTA and God of War. Their failure arguably stems from their inability to compete with Microsoft in the race towards the lowest common denominator.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

But it’s a vicious circle — Western games grow more and more removed from Japanese consumer tastes, so Japanese companies serve their home market by stopping any attempt to appeal to the rest of the world, and Japan’s global influence continues to decline.

No, western games of any type will never do well in Japan because of extreme cultural isolation and conformity, regardless of content. Through this isolation most Japanese developers have lost the skills necessary to willfully make games with cross-cultural appeal.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Exploiting the popamolers with what, turn-based JRPGs?

Ha yes, the old Codex canard, that anything turn-based can't be popamole.

Go look at the list of bestselling PS2 games bro

I am looking. Popamole as far as the eye can see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_2_video_games

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Exploiting the popamolers with what, turn-based JRPGs?

Ha yes, the old Codex canard, that anything turn-based can't be popamole.

Go look at the list of bestselling PS2 games bro

I am looking. Popamole as far as the eye can see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_2_video_games

Yes, I'm sure it's much more useful to define "popamole" as "games of genres I don't like". Is Gran Turismo "popamole" as well for some inane reason?

 

[Lyric Suite]

As opposed to defining master race games as "anything i like". What's so fucking great about Grand Turismo anyway?

 

[Metro]

Popamole > faggy jrpgs.

 

[RK47]

yeah srsly. the only good jap games on pc is......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I can't think up of good non-hentai games.
Maybe KOEI used to make good strategy.
But that's not important these days, it's all Dynasty Warriors or bust.
So fuck'em.

 

[tuluse]

I have a different theory.

In the past, video games were much more abstract. Due to this, it was a lot easier to cross cultural boundaries. Anyone can play Super Mario World and get what it's about. Not as many people will understand what is going on in FF14 or Dark Souls. Mario also succeeds entirely on mechanics. You don't have to care about the plight of Mario or Peach or Bowser to find the game fun to play.

 

[WhiteGuts]

So what you're saying is that the japs can't have actual depth and complexity in their games ? Narrative wise, at least.

 

[Haba]

That's not what you said though, you said the market was self-sufficient, which in this context would mean that publishers, developers and platform holders can survive by only producing for the Japanese audience. This is, in general, not true. Sure, there are some franchises that do well over there (Monster Hunter, Yakuza, Dragon's Dogma sold very well, etc.), but each of these comes from a publisher with a major western presence.

Like I said, the only self-sufficient part of that industry is the mobile stuff, and by mobile I primarily mean smartphone games. Maybe handhelds, not positive on that.

I would say that mobile, handhelds, MMOs and a big part of the consoles release are self-sufficient and make a profit on Japan alone. Just think on how many games are never translated, or only released years later. And they clearly payed themselves, as the continue to get sequels.

The reason why Japan went outside of Japan in the first place was the fact that their diminishing market was not sustainable...

F2P mobile shit shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence with game industry. But even there... Supercell was bought by a Japanese company. For a reason.

 

[taxalot]

Are there actually people in here who claim that japanese only ever produced shitty games?

 

[agentorange]

Same reason they are beginning to fail in all things: they are trying to be more like the West, in particular kwa.

 

[Gerrard]

Are there actually people in here who claim that japanese only ever produced shitty games?

Probably Definitely. Why? Because this is the RPG Codex.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Are there actually people in here who claim that japanese only ever produced shitty games?

Shitty games? No. Inferior games? Definitely.

 

[Lyric Suite]

they are trying to be more like the West

 

[Spectacle]

But it’s a vicious circle — Western games grow more and more removed from Japanese consumer tastes, so Japanese companies serve their home market by stopping any attempt to appeal to the rest of the world, and Japan’s global influence continues to decline.

No, western games of any type will never do well in Japan because of extreme cultural isolation and conformity, regardless of content. Through this isolation most Japanese developers have lost the skills necessary to willfully make games with cross-cultural appeal.

That is bullshit. Japan is nowhere near "extreme cultural isolation". Japanese consumers love western movies and to a lesser degree western music. There must be a different reason for why western games don't appeal to the Japanese. It's probably true that lack of foreign competition has made Japanese devs lose skill, though.

BTW, Paradox says that about 5% of the sales of the Clausewitz engine games are in Japan, so it's not all western games that fail there, just AAA popamole

 

[Gulnar]

So what you're saying is that the japs can't have actual depth and complexity in their games ? Narrative wise, at least.

More like the 'depth' of a japanese game doesn't respond to the same expectation of a western consumer. The thing also works the other way around: what is regarded as depth - or even 'hardcoreness' - here doesn't bring the same effect in the far east.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

As opposed to defining master race games as "anything i like". What's so fucking great about Grand Turismo anyway?

Does anyone actually say "master race games"? In any case, I have no idea about Gran Turismo, since I don't like racing games. My point is, if you're going to use "popamole" as a synonym of "shit", then may as well just say "shit" instead. The word was, however, invented to describe a specific type of shit, and I don't think Final Fantasy or Gran Turismo qualify.

Same reason they are beginning to fail in all things: they are trying to be more like the West, in particular kwa.

Amusingly enough, Nintendo is failing for the exact opposite reason - they're too isolationist and wapanese-centric.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Indie games are one of the best reasons to buy a game console these days

 

[Lyric Suite]

So what you're saying is that the japs can't have actual depth and complexity in their games ? Narrative wise, at least.

More like the 'depth' of a japanese game doesn't respond to the same expectation of a western consumer. The thing also works the other way around: what is regarded as depth - or even 'hardcoreness' - here doesn't bring the same effect in the far east.

This sounds dangerously close to some relativistic bullshit to me. "They are not less profound, its just a different type of profundity trololo". Fuck you Japofags.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Narratives in Japanese games are usually terrible. Just like western games, frankly, although it's a different kind of terrible.

Still, in some genres they're the only ones capable of designing good gameplay, like in 3D action games for instance.

 

[TheGreatOne]

So what you're saying is that the japs can't have actual depth and complexity in their games ? Narrative wise, at least.

Silent Hill 2's plot isn't any less deep than that of Planescape: Torment. It's maybe even more so due to the heavy use of symbolism, art fags love symbolism. There's an incredible amount of thought put into the mythology and symbolism behind the world and storylines of the original (1-4) Silent Hill games. And that was a massively popular game on PS2. It didn't sell like GTA but it's widely recognized by console gamers who aren't complete casuals. Only a minute fraction of people who've played the Silent Hill games really understand 100% what's going on them though, I know I've played them multiple times and there's a shit ton of religious mythology stuff that I wouldn't have understood had it not bee for The Real Silent Hill Experience video series.
I'd say that Persona 4 almost reaches that PS:T level of writing too. It has sappy social link BS, but the main storyline is very solidly written. PS:T, P4, U4-7, that's the triforce of well written RPG stories imo. SS2 as an honorable mention, though I feel it has a more predictable story than the aforementioned titles, but it has that interesting war of ideologies thing going on which gets it popularity points amongst art fags. But I digress.

Compared to the vast library of PC games there are less of deep&complex(TM) Japanese console games (especially when many of the more niche titles aren't localized here), but on consoles it's a completely different story (comparing Western console/multiplatform games to Japanese console games)

And as far as depth and complexity go, look up the scoring system of any bullet hell shooter or the mechanics of fighting games played at tournaments and SRPGs. PC has more complex games (grand strategy, dwarf fortress, competitive MMORPGs and RTSs) but Japan does have it's fair share of deep games (depth and complexity aren't the same thing as you probably know, for example chess is a very simple game that is very deep, where as a much more complex video game can be really shallow compared to chess), the two regions just specialize in different kinds of games.

More like the 'depth' of a japanese game doesn't respond to the same expectation of a western consumer. The thing also works the other way around: what is regarded as depth - or even 'hardcoreness' - here doesn't bring the same effect in the far east.

This sounds dangerously close to some relativistic bullshit to me. "They are not less profound, its just a different type of profundity trololo". Fuck you Japofags.

It's the truth. Dark Souls isn't any less hardcore than System Shock 2, they're just different. Same goes for Nocturne and Wizardry 8 and so on. PC is geared more towards hardcore games that are more based on player knowledge rather than skill (grand strategy, dwarf fortress) where as japanese/console games excel at hardcore games that are skill based (sadistic platformers, bullet hell shooters, competitive fighting games). Both are hardcore, the difference is in playstyle. You might argue that games that are based on the player's skill and reflexes are popamole compared to turn based games, but you can't argue that a game that only a handful of people in the entire world have beaten isn't "hardcore". There is an exception to that rule though in the form of JRPGs, as especially SRPGs can be quite deep and challenging turn based games(*). And on the PC side you have fast paced games like Quake and Starcraft 2.
(*)Though you can argue that Jagged Alliance 2 or a similar PC game is a bit more complex than any given SRPG. But even if that SRPG doesn't quite reach the official codex threshold for a turn based game that can be classified as "truly hardcore", it's still far from popamole

 

[Lyric Suite]

I rest my case. Japophiles have a brain disease that makes them unable to distinguish tit for tat. Objectivity is impossible with those type of people. "Silent Hill's plot is deeyp 'n shit, 'cause of symbolism". But first of all, symbolism has jack shit to do with plot in the first place, so that the argument is already fallacious, and second, symbolism doesn't real equal depth in and of itself, and for the most part, symbolism is the first refuge of the pretentious, so much so that certain artists, like Tarkovsky for instance, actually went out of their way to repudiate the entire concept of symbolism:

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~tstronds/nostalghia.com/TheTopics/Symbols.html

This might be an exaggerated reaction because there is a place for symbolism in art, but when every idiot tries to interpret every single image in a work of art as containing some type of symbolic meaning, it reduces and limits the scope of artistic expression and saps all meaning and poetry out of artistic imagery.

Aside for this, all your arguments can be reduced to some relativistic apologia. "Japanese games are just as complex, just in their own way". This doesn't really mean anything, for now the definition of "complexity" is up for grabs, and complex can mean anything one wishes it to mean, which renders the discussion pointless.

BTW, there is one fallacy that is often used in those type of arguments, and that is the idea that if one considers a particular genre to be inherently inferior, it means one also thinks there can be no talent or creativity in it (or that conversely, western developers can't be shit. This is far from being the case, and there is no question that there is a lot of talent being poured in Japanese games. But it is the form itself that limits the reach of those games. Quite simply, the Japanese don't take gaming as seriously as westerners did (at least for a time), at least from the point of view of the possibilities inherent in this medium. Comparing the progress of PC games from the late 70s up until the failbox fuck it up side by side with the Japanese industry is quite enlightening.

BTW, perhaps we can make a similar analogy by comparing Japanese animation with western animation. I'm often told that the Japanese take animation a lot more seriously, where as western animation is strictly seen as entertainment for children (whatever its quality). Now i know jack shit about animation, but if this is true, wouldn't be strange to argue that western animation can be as "profound" as Japanese animation if the latter is actually free to address adults, where as the first cannot?