Decline Less Hand-Holding

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

Hi,

I have knuckled about with Path of Exile, and Neverwinter, but I have wondered if there is an MMO that is less hand-holding, with less fed-ex quests, and quest markers... Obviously, I like Path of Exile, but Neverwinter turned me off with too much generic gameplay. I am hoping for something more interesting, cerebral, and without all the generic fantasy tropes.

 

[Scroo]

You'll have it tough, MMOs are all designed for handholding these days. You could try the project1999 Everquest classic server, it's well populated. Or go for a niche MMORPG like istaria which also offers no handholding and is really tough but unfortunately it also only has a really tiny population. But you can play a dragon at least haha

 

[Ulminati]

The Secret World has some sidequests where you're meant to figure out mysteries without handholding. (Although most people just use a wiki for the solutions these days).

 

[Hoaxmetal]

There's always EvE online. I've been playing on and off for 7 years and I still feel like a noob.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

There's always EvE online. I've been playing on and off for 7 years and I still feel like a noob.

Heard this one is quite exciting. Possibly an alternative to the free-to-plays I've been perusing.

I've also heard the same about Ultima Online, though it's past its prime. Thoughts?

 

[baturinsky]

If you want brutally hard (to figure, not to grind), quests and not afraid of console mode, try Disworld MUD

http://disc-wiki.confusedherring.com/wiki/Unofficial_quest_solutions

 

[Hoaxmetal]

There's always EvE online. I've been playing on and off for 7 years and I still feel like a noob.

Heard this one is quite exciting. Possibly an alternative to the free-to-plays I've been perusing.

I've also heard the same about Ultima Online, though it's past its prime. Thoughts?

It's still quite active on some private servers (that have kept the old settings regarding to pvp and so on). Quest wise - there's almost no quests :D It's all about sanbox pvp, dungeon roams (non-instanced) and housing.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

There're tons, believe it or not, but as previous poster stated, populations are usually smal-ish.. And there're so many kidns. I play Wurm Online, but I doubt you're interested--it's sandbox and hardcore grind. You have to search for what you want.

You might want to look at this (click and read the whole thing, not just the quote below):
http://projectgorgon.com/5-welcome-to-project-gorgon

Go and Find Adventure
Originally, each new MMO found its own balance between the two extreme design ideas of "tight, directed game”, or “immersive, explorable world". After World of Warcraft, MMOs all seem to use the same answer. But we answer this basic dichotomy in a totally different way.

Project: Gorgon heavily rewards exploration. Go poke in corners and see what you find! Entire dungeons, hidden NPCs, all kinds of items, even entire skills and abilities... all waiting for you to discover.

Don't worry if that sounds intimidating! There'll be a solid tutorial, of course (and you can see an early version in the game right now). And to help get you started, we'll have "directed storylines" that are akin to classic MMO quest lines, and help tell the overarching story. But once you're comfortable, we hope you'll go exploring – because most of Project: Gorgon doesn't have signposts.

After reading the above welcome page, watch this:

 

[His Majesty]

Hi,

I have knuckled about with Path of Exile, and Neverwinter, but I have wondered if there is an MMO that is less hand-holding, with less fed-ex quests, and quest markers... Obviously, I like Path of Exile, but Neverwinter turned me off with too much generic gameplay. I am hoping for something more interesting, cerebral, and without all the generic fantasy tropes.

Give The Secret World a try.

 

[Veelq]

Both Path of Exile and Neverwinter are hardly an mmo game. First one is a loot-whoring game similar to diablo series with optional co-op, second one is a party based dungeon crawler with singleplayer storyline. Nothing is massive in both of them.
As for the mmos, its true that there is no good new games atm, the best sandbox type is Eve, as for the themeparks Secret World is interesting because of setting so maybe give it a shot.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I really wish I could brofist all these replies. Ultima Online sounds just like what I'm looking for, but it may be I just need a MUD fix. It's a shame the population of MUDs is decreasing so rapidly with the advent of MMOs, it seems they are more hardcore than almost all MMOs.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I really wish I could brofist all these replies. Ultima Online sounds just like what I'm looking for, but it may be I just need a MUD fix. It's a shame the population of MUDs is decreasing so rapidly with the advent of MMOs, it seems they are more hardcore than almost all MMOs.

=)

MUDs? Then maybe this one:
http://www.alteraeon.com/

I chose to suggest that one because I haven't plaeyd it but the fact it has been around a while and looks solid to me makes me come out and suggest it. I cannot say if i t's any good though--like for real. I'm too busy with other games to give it a run.

Or maybe this:
http://godwars2.org/about.php

I have played some MUDs over the years. Problem is none of them stand out to me. And maybe half of them I can't remember. I tried Icesus and Midkemia, for example. It as ok. Wish I knew more to give suggestions.

Here's a listing of top voted muds:
http://www.mudconnect.com/cgi-bin/all_rankings.cgi

Do you like sandbox MMO's I could give you a (~20 count) list of them here.

There's an unbelievable amount of variety out there. But if you're looking for large populations, choices are limited.

EDIT: Icesus and Midkemia below (I played both years ago--they were okish):
http://www.midkemiaonline.com/
http://www.icesus.org/Icesus/about.php

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I am looking for something, sandbox-y, yes, but something that does not trade its technicality for a more hand-holding experience.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Did you look at the Project Gorgon links I gave above? That game isn't a typical sandbox MMO, but some say it's sandboxxy. Based on what I know, it has less hand holding. It doesn't show quest markers or quest arrows, for example.

You could try Planeshift. It's a free game. But it's terrible, imho. Horrible rules too. Some potential, but mostly lost.

Here's a (not exhaustive) list of some sandbox or sandbox-ish games:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/324080/
https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/
http://www.xsyon.com/content.php
http://7daystodie.com/
http://albiononline.com/
http://playrust.com/about/
http://planetexplorers.pathea.net/about/
http://minecraft.dk/mcserverlist/server/?id=1819
http://www.mortalonline.com/
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/
http://shoresofhazeron.com/
http://www.therepopulation.com/
https://www.h1z1.com/home
http://lifeisfeudal.com/
http://www.deepworldgame.com/
https://www.linkrealms.com/
https://www.elitedangerous.com/
http://gamersfirst.com/apb/
http://www.trionworlds.com/archeage/en/game/
http://www.faceofmankind.com/
http://play-earthrise.com/
http://www.gamersfirst.com/fallenearth/
http://immunegame.com/

And just so you know, I haven't tried ANY of the games in that list. The first one reminds me of Wurm Online.

It's really just a taste. I know ther're many more out ther. Another thing is the above links include some alpha games or otherwise games which you probably aren't interested in at all.

Finding mmo's with less hand holding is more tricky. Have to look around. I play Wurm Online. It's nothing like a standrd MMORPG, but the lack of hand holding is favored by me. I love its sandbox. It's veyr grindy.

Here's a story in rockpapershotgun about Wurm Online:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/19/it-takes-a-village-wurm-online-and-the-value-of-tedium/

I think you should first look at the other suggestions though. Wurm Online is the last one you should try.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

Did you look at the Project Gorgon links I gave above? That game isn't a typical sandbox MMO, but some say it's sandboxxy. Based on what I know, it has less hand holding. It doesn't show quest markers or quest arrows, for example.

You could try Planeshift. It's a free game. But it's terrible, imho. Horrible rules too. Some potential, but mostly lost.

Here's a (not exhaustive) list of some sandbox or sandbox-ish games:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/324080/
https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/
http://www.xsyon.com/content.php
http://7daystodie.com/
http://albiononline.com/
http://playrust.com/about/
http://planetexplorers.pathea.net/about/
http://minecraft.dk/mcserverlist/server/?id=1819
http://www.mortalonline.com/
http://www.perpetuum-online.com/
http://shoresofhazeron.com/
http://www.therepopulation.com/
https://www.h1z1.com/home
http://lifeisfeudal.com/
http://www.deepworldgame.com/
https://www.linkrealms.com/
https://www.elitedangerous.com/
http://gamersfirst.com/apb/
http://www.trionworlds.com/archeage/en/game/
http://www.faceofmankind.com/
http://play-earthrise.com/
http://www.gamersfirst.com/fallenearth/
http://immunegame.com/

And just so you know, I haven't tried ANY of the games in that list. The first one reminds me of Wurm Online.

It's really just a taste. I know ther're many more out ther. Another thing is the above links include some alpha games or otherwise games which you probably aren't interested in at all.

Finding mmo's with less hand holding is more tricky. Have to look around. I play Wurm Online. It's nothing like a standrd MMORPG, but the lack of hand holding is favored by me. I love its sandbox. It's veyr grindy.

Here's a story in rockpapershotgun about Wurm Online:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/19/it-takes-a-village-wurm-online-and-the-value-of-tedium/

I think you should first look at the other suggestions though. Wurm Online is the last one you should try.

Yep! I bookmarked both pages. I am definitely into MUDs!

I used to play this one: avendar.com:9999.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Found this googling:
https://slashlfg.wordpresscom/2013/...-hand-holding-is-killing-it-penny-arcade-com/

Do you consider yourself an explorer, OP? Do you get bored when you leave hte beaten path? Or when you leave teh quest hubs? Or just in general don't go where most of the players go? How do you feel about getting rewarded for exploring, like getting experience for finding out of the way places or finding an NPC which offers you something you can't find easily anywhere else?

I'm going to be exploring MMORPGs a bit and see if I can find some more you might be itnerested in. I'm looking specifically for newer games. I know that I know what you mean, or htink you do, regarding hand holding. Thing is, I'm an old schooler. I'm not familiar with many of the new games. The newest mainstream games I've played are EQ2 and DDO. Those aren't even new, so my expeirence is very limited. Thus, it's hard forme to offer god suggestions to anyone younger than 30. Most of us older ones have nostalgia which I think makes us more prejudiced in our selection of games. Although I think nostalgia doesn't explain all of it.

Consider Wurm Online. It started in 2007 and is inspired by UO/EQ and the minecraft creator. It's NOT new.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Found one which is new but not finished yet; you have to pay $10 to gain access to the alpha (or is it beta?):
http://gloriavictisgame.com/application/index/faq

Here's an older game, but who knws youmight be interesed:
http://www.eternal-lands.com/page/features.php

Here's a very weird new sandbox game which looks like minecraft in 2d:
http://8bitmmo.net/

Wish you the best on your hunt.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Want to say the Gloria Victis game doesn't have quest markers, from what I researched. However because it's such a new game still in development, somany things can chage. You can't rust a game until it's older, but even then it'll mudflate and slowly have more hand holds. But finding which which has that distinct character means you have a place to be for a while.

Some old(er) games without quest markers (or generally you need to read quest text):
http://en.dekaron.nexoneu.com/NXEU.aspx?PART=/News/Current_News - a weird asian mmo
http://www.runescape.com/?jptg=ia&jptv=navbar - it's old but it's updated - has map markers, not quest markers
http://darkages.com/ - this one is UO-like and asian-leaning and $10/month (and old)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/350700/ - red stone online. it's an old 2.5d asian mmo. diablo-like.

Of those, if it were me, I'd try the Runescape 3. I don't trust or really liike asian stuff.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

Want to say the Gloria Victis game doesn't have quest markers, from what I researched. However because it's such a new game still in development, somany things can chage. You can't rust a game until it's older, but even then it'll mudflate and slowly have more hand holds. But finding which which has that distinct character means you have a place to be for a while.

Some old(er) games without quest markers (or generally you need to read quest text):
http://en.dekaron.nexoneu.com/NXEU.aspx?PART=/News/Current_News - a weird asian mmo
http://www.runescape.com/?jptg=ia&jptv=navbar - it's old but it's updated - has map markers, not quest markers
http://darkages.com/ - this one is UO-like and asian-leaning and $10/month (and old)
http://store.steampowered.com/app/350700/ - red stone online. it's an old 2.5d asian mmo. diablo-like.

Of those, if it were me, I'd try the Runescape 3. I don't trust or really liike asian stuff.

I've heard of Red Stone. Runescape, I tried, but I had no idea they'd produced a sequel.

If I cannot get my fix, no worries, I shall grab the MUDding paddle and start flopping away at the keyboard. It's amazing how technology advances while our current games industry goes in reverse, at least in terms of multi-player dungeons. MUDs seem far more sophisticated, and advanced, and without the contrived fed ex quests to detract me from exploring a larger land-scape, in hopes of happening upon some impossible dungeon (given my current level).

Meanwhile, most MMOs hand away levels like they are hot cakes, and do anything, including free equipment and easy-mode puzzles to get you interested in spending a dime on their garbage.

I shall check out Wurm Online.

If graphics advance, gameplay must advance in correspondence to the available tech. That is in theory, perhaps we'll go back to the basics one day. *SIGH*

I miss my MUDs.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Hmm. If graphics advance does the gamepaly advance with it?

I think one of the changes when you go from a MUD text-based world to a 3d world is travel tends to be either via teleport in the 3d world or it tends to be slower. Why? I think because running 50 mph just feels wrong. And always having access to something which makes you fast also feels wrong. In a MUD we don't notice because we abstract each movement as a passage of time. Each step is across an indeterminate amount of space. You might be crossing a small footpath or you might be crossing a river or a mountain. You can go from being in a forest to being in a town by simpley typing "e" (east). It's all abstracted. In a 3d world, by contrast, you're not allowed to abstract it as easily. Somehow it being visual changes things.

And there're costs in a 3d graphical game. MUDs are essentially 2d structurally but communicated to the player through text. I think there's a heavier cost with graphics. A 2d game must create graphics for EVERY object/etc in the vicinity of the player. For example, a MUD might say this to describe a statue "An exquisitely carved oak figurine of the graceful, long haired goddess Sarana Vyono, standing and holding closely to her a spherical depiction of Ryon and its outer heavens, keeping it safe from the roaring flames of the underworld which is shown beneath her." In a 2d game, the statue would have to be drawn, requiring more time. Another reason 3d worlds require more time is because of the 3rd dimension. Every added dimension massively increases the needed content requirements. 2d might be 10x10 = 100. 3d might be 10x10x10=1000, a 10x increase if all axis are equal! If nothing is added in the 3rd dimension then ti's 2d, not 3d, so no cost is incurred. Finally, as a result of going from a MUD to a fully realized 3d environment, the art department produces at a comparatively slower pace, unable to flesh out the world effectively, depriving it of the vitality a player demands. And so they're unable to dazzle the player--cannot even remotely compensate for the longer travel times. This means the world is stretched out when ti's graphical 3d and there're large empty-ish areas, causing players to be uninterested.

I know, I know, that doesn't explain all of it, or maybe most of it. Or maybe you think it explains none of it because I'm wrong about something. Evenso, there's a lot to be said about the quick travelling in MUDs being a distinctive feature. The real problem in MUDs is the fact tehy're text-based and not appealing to visual-oriented players--or just generally cumbersome other ways.

NOT to say I've ever had any troubel or complaints with slow travel in 3d games. To the contrary, it has never bothered me much. In fact, I can get immersed easily. But immersion for me is more centered on "If I do not stay alert I will die or indelibly become lost and lose everything on me." The visual enviornmnent certainly can be beautiful, but I can just as easily be immersed in a MUD.

See, I'm not against fast travel. What I"m against is easy ways to escape danger. What I'm against is too much safety. I'm against too much winning or easy winning. What I'm against is that get-out-of-jail-free card which is so common in many games. I like it tight and unnerving, so that your hands eyes are glued to the game and you're alert.

I also don't like the invisible barriers, especially the ones which're on cliffs. HATE those!!

(no offense to people reading this who like the invisible barriers--i am however being genuine)

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Foudn an interesting game where there's permadeath. It's not a 3d game. Like 2d minecraft. It's more of an RPG than sandbox:
http://www.realmofthemadgod.com/

Nnot sure about hand holding. But any game with permadeath can't worship it. The general idea behind hand holding--and why I tend to dislike it--is to reduce negative consequences and make the player be able to play relaxingly/casually.

The game does show quest markers and also allows instant travel with some small restrictions. It has instancs. But based on what I've seen, it reminds me of diablo 2 in hardcore mode. I'd have to play to get a determination.

Just adding permadeath on top of a game doesn't necessarily make it the kind of game I want to play. But given Path of Exile is also remindfull of diablo 2, perhaps it's what you're looking for, if you can accept permadeath.

Note: You can pause this game. I love that. You can only pause if monsters aren't nearby. I've called for pause before in other forums. Pause doesn't make a game carebear by itself. You still have to play the game. The game is the determinant.

Here's a video:

 

[belowmecoldhands]

You might not like old ones Dawnrazor, but I found another diablo/uo/etc-like mmo:
http://euotopia.com/

Please note eutopia is free, but very old with old-style grapyhics. It has player-housing. It's not exactly diablo.

The fact it's old means almost certainly has les of the modern hand holding. It has a permadeath server. And what's great is Richard Garriot, a maker or the maker of UO, visited there last year around the same time he visited the uo second age server. That to me is unbelievable. But moreso, I've never heard of this game b4. I would have loved to play it back in the day.

Richard Garriot is behind the kickstarter and campaign for Shroud of the Avatar:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...kstarter-now-available-on-early-access.80957/

The website:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/

That game is still being developed--which I think is why I didn't put it in the list. Requires $45 fee to test it.

EDIT: Richard Garriot was just responding to a tweet about Euotopia. But I've no doubt he checked it out.