On addictive design in RPGs

[SCO]

What a incredibly retarded thread. Place it in gendisc or retardo where it belongs.

 

[Lacrymas]

Indeed, it's no wonder developers make their best stuff when they're young and enthusiastic, before it becomes a job instead of a calling.

Or maybe before they start thinking that it's a waste of time and everyone should be doing something else instead of playing games (or whatever your field is)? That's a pretty poisonous mindset which I don't understand and I'd probably kill myself if I had to live with the idea that whatever I do is worthless and pointless and that people should be doing something else. I'm surprised he isn't clinically depressed, or maybe he is?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I think a lot of people here think addictive is a good thing. When PoE came out, a lot of the complaints were "What's the point of doing all of this boring combat if I don't get XP?" rather than "What's the point of doing all of this boring combat if it's boring?" I guess part of the problem is that if people started asking the latter, they'll realize that a lot of Codex favorites have a ton of boring repetitive combat that people stick with because they like seeing numbers slowly go up.

No, it's more like, since character development is such an integral part of a CRPG why does an activity I spent 90% of the game doing play no part in it (instead I have to get a quest from Tom, Dick and Harry and then go kill shit they want me to kill)? No one argues for Combat XP in Deus Ex (and indeed, it's one of the most criticized feature of HR) and no one will mind its absence in the new Torment. Don't want Combat XP in your game? Then don't make combat such a prevalent option when it comes to quest solution and don't fill every damn location to the brim with copy paste trash encounters.

 

[Lhynn]

Uh, accuracy and defences increasing as you level up were in the original D&D. It's hardly a modern design. That's what THAC0 and saving throw progression is all about.

I dont know if you are trying to be misleading or you are ignorant.
Accuracy inreased but defense against it remained static and relied on equipment, consumables and magic in general to improve.
Defenses against everything else increased, but difficulty remainded static, which meant eventually all of it was easy to overcome.
Thats a far cry from poe where everything gets bigger then you level, in such a way that everything stays the same.

 

[HotSnack]

He just wants us all to live a balanced lifestyle.

 

[Prime Junta]

Uh, accuracy and defences increasing as you level up were in the original D&D. It's hardly a modern design. That's what THAC0 and saving throw progression is all about.

I dont know if you are trying to be misleading or you are ignorant.
Accuracy inreased but defense against it remained static and relied on equipment, consumables and magic in general to improve.
Defenses against everything else increased, but difficulty remainded static, which meant eventually all of it was easy to overcome.
Thats a far cry from poe where everything gets bigger then you level, in such a way that everything stays the same.

It is true that in D&D AC improvement happens through gear progression rather than character progression. The treadmill is still there. It's not a "modern MMO design."

As to "everything stays the same," weren't you just trashing Pillars because it's easy to outlevel things? You can't have it both ways bro.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Or maybe before they start thinking that it's a waste of time and everyone should be doing something else instead of playing games (or whatever your field is)? That's a pretty poisonous mindset which I don't understand and I'd probably kill myself if I had to live with the idea that whatever I do is worthless and pointless and that people should be doing something else. I'm surprised he isn't clinically depressed, or maybe he is?

He did have a few big projects (that were in the late stage of development) cancelled, might change one's outlook on things.

As to "everything stays the same," weren't you just trashing Pillars because it's easy to outlevel things? You can't have it both ways bro.

That was me actually, not Lhynn.

 

[Beastro]

The material impact of video games is fairly low, as are individual rates of consumption (for the majority of people, anyway). The more video games move toward full digital distribution, the smaller their environmental impact should become. Video games do require a lot of electricity to both make and play, which does have a negative impact and is perhaps the most difficult thing to reconcile. I try to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive. I want people to be able to pick them up, put them down when they have something more important to do (which should be almost anything), and eventually stop playing entirely.

Oh my god. This is the best quote ever, Roguey!

The main purpose of a game developer is to create games that players will enjoy. The games that players enjoy the most have a common characteristic: they are addicting. Being paid to make games that are purposely not addicting is like being paid to make chocolates for people that hate sugar. It doesn’t make any sense and it’s counter-productive. So, let me get this straight. Sawyer and Tin Cain made a combat system in PoE that was streamlined and bland just because they wanted to be more inclusive. Now, Sawyer talks about how he doesn’t want players getting addicted in order to save electricity! He wants then to save their time to do something more important. Let me guess, they should play less games in order to save the environment! Jesus Fucking Christ. The studio should be renamed “SJW entertainment”.

Errrrm, wtf?

I could see him worrying about making games that could negatively impact people's lives, but worrying about the electricity they use over environmental concerns???

Guy's got his head up his ass.

It's just hypocritical of him to judge us when he has devoted his life to making games consuming electricity.

That's the issue I hold.

Either the issue is so bad he should stop fucking feeding the problem or it isn't much of one so wtf is he whining about?

All I see here is standard Leftist hypocrisy moralizing the environment while doing nothing major but pay lip service to the cause in their own life. The man's just paying indulgences to absolve himself of his bullshit guilt like a sickening number in the West do these days with their various causes.

 

[Roguey]

I could see him worrying about making games that could negatively impact people's lives, but worrying about the electricity they use over environmental concerns???

Guy's got his head up his ass.

Perhaps he'd say the same for you.

I think the most harmful elements of modern society are egoism and short-sightedness in equal measure: people who either do not care about or do not recognize how the confluence of individuals' myopic self-interest can produce a systemic collapse of capital-driven societies and the mechanisms/environments driving them.

In short, the individual's head is so far up his or her ass that it is impossible for him or her to understand his or her role in the mechanisms of society and what he or she can -- much less should -- do to sustain their operation.

To this, layer on a burning drive to be right, or to win, rather than a desire to understand truth, and you have a recipe for willful ignorance and extreme dysfunction.

I don't belong to a specific ideology. However, I do believe that the American people are collectively so willfully ignorant, myopic, and generally thoughtless that the republic will eventually collapse through its own dysfunction.

I do not believe in any higher power. I believe that many people living in modern republics behave in a fashion that merits being ruled by tyrants or aristocrats. I also believe that humanity will eventually scour most animal and plant life from the surface of the planet and suffocate the seas through overpopulation and the continued existence of large, consumption- and expansion-driven societies.

I think individuals can be good and do good work in spite of the circumstances surrounding them, but I think the societies most of us live in are generally blundering, ignorant, and destructive.

Our population also continues to grow at an insane rate, which, if you think about our per capita consumption of resources, is probably more singularly devastating than any individual behavior in which we partake.

If you live in an industrialized, consumption-based society, I can't think of any socially-celebrated act that causes more environmental destruction than creating more human life.

 

[Mackerel]

lol, Sawyer really takes that faux-anti-elitist CSR-cliche-spouting self-hating goony nerd man stereotype to the extreme

 

[Lurker King]

I don't belong to a specific ideology.

Yes, you do.

 

[Trashos]

Out of curiosity for this hysteria (as I perceive it), I just did a quick calculation of the energy footprint of consoles (why consoles? that's what I happened to find data on). My numbers for consoles (referring to 2008, data only from US) come from article in Scientific American [1] and my numbers for total energy consumption (referring to 2013) come from Wikipedia [2].

For my quick and dirty calculation, I disregarded the 5 year difference between the data I am about to compare.

Result: console gaming in the US accounts for ~1 millionth of total energy consumption worldwide.

Mind you, that's a bigger number than what I had expected, but still it won't make any difference to our civilization's effort for energy sustainability. To people who are interested in energy sustainability, I recommend looking for other culprits.

[1] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/video-gamers-use-as-much-energy-as-san-diego/
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption

 

[Bubbles]

Wouldn't browser games actually be a better fit for Sawyer's design philosophy than the games he's currently making? I mean the kind of game where you can only take one action every 8 hours or so, and you can at most spend 5 minutes a day playing them. They may be addictive, but they still leave people plenty of time to go outside and read the newest batch of federal budget amendments on a park bench.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

In the new Dungeon Keeper you could pay real life money to speed up the processes

 

[Beastro]

I could see him worrying about making games that could negatively impact people's lives, but worrying about the electricity they use over environmental concerns???

Guy's got his head up his ass.

Perhaps he'd say the same for you.

I think the most harmful elements of modern society are egoism and short-sightedness in equal measure: people who either do not care about or do not recognize how the confluence of individuals' myopic self-interest can produce a systemic collapse of capital-driven societies and the mechanisms/environments driving them.

In short, the individual's head is so far up his or her ass that it is impossible for him or her to understand his or her role in the mechanisms of society and what he or she can -- much less should -- do to sustain their operation.

To this, layer on a burning drive to be right, or to win, rather than a desire to understand truth, and you have a recipe for willful ignorance and extreme dysfunction.

I don't belong to a specific ideology. However, I do believe that the American people are collectively so willfully ignorant, myopic, and generally thoughtless that the republic will eventually collapse through its own dysfunction.

I do not believe in any higher power. I believe that many people living in modern republics behave in a fashion that merits being ruled by tyrants or aristocrats. I also believe that humanity will eventually scour most animal and plant life from the surface of the planet and suffocate the seas through overpopulation and the continued existence of large, consumption- and expansion-driven societies.

I think individuals can be good and do good work in spite of the circumstances surrounding them, but I think the societies most of us live in are generally blundering, ignorant, and destructive.

Our population also continues to grow at an insane rate, which, if you think about our per capita consumption of resources, is probably more singularly devastating than any individual behavior in which we partake.

If you live in an industrialized, consumption-based society, I can't think of any socially-celebrated act that causes more environmental destruction than creating more human life.

Yup, the guys full up on guilt trying to bandy about absolving himself of it.

That isn't to say the problems he describes aren't real, but the way he approaches them and how he talks reeks of the kind of Westerner who hates their way of life and everything it represents, yet keeps living it because they know better than to try to live like a caveman or seriously demand a population reduction that would wind up killing everyone he knows and cares about.

So:

Yes, you do.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Sawyer seems like a nice guy

 

[Infinitron]

If you liked Arcade Gannon, you must also like Josh Sawyer.

 

[Lacrymas]

Even if we take him seriously, there is another, more fundamental, problem. If it comes to such an extreme it's up to us to decide whether nature is worth "saving" or not. There is nothing inherently "good" in the natural environment. If we decimate the whole planet and build a huge metropolis which can sustain us, it will (and should) be our choice to do so and we'll bear the consequences of it (either good or bad). That's what it comes down to - our will. If we lose control over our own choices then the inherently bad thing starts showing through. Feeling guilty about it is another discussion entirely and doesn't directly pertain to this issue.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I try to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive. I want people to be able to pick them up, put them down when they have something more important to do (which should be almost anything), and eventually stop playing entirely.

I always thought he just had bad opinions and was a bad writer, but this is absurd. It's one of the most condescending, self-serving loads of shit I've ever seen a developer say.
First of all, not wanting to make addictive games is bad for business, so he's already wrong there. He shouldn't try to harm the company that employs him.

The worst part is that he's fully convinced that playing games should be one's lowest priority, and that everyone should get rid of them after playing. He doesn't know what people can do in their free time, he doesn't know what games mean to each person, he doesn't realize that gaming is a much better addiction than most common alternatives. Sure, people should do more than work, pay bills and play games. Still, why the hell does Sawyer think he can tell players what they should be doing with their time? Can he even define - objectively - when a person's addicted to a game in the first place?
It takes a special type of idiot to undermine the hobby that puts food on his own table.

Addictive game design is degenerate. And you seem to be enjoying degeneracy. You fucking subhuman, you just enjoy taking the developer cock into your ass and then licking it clean from your own shit.
You're a fucking disgrace.

ITT we find out that Codexians don't know the difference between 'addictive' and 'engaging'

(or think 'addictive' is a good thing, which makes grinding in WoW the pinnacle of great gameplay)

(which is worse)

Seriously, this wave of gat0r Codexers has brought so many dumbfucks and degenerates. I miss the time where one could come here and encounter mostly people.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Wouldn't browser games actually be a better fit for Sawyer's design philosophy than the games he's currently making? I mean the kind of game where you can only take one action every 8 hours or so, and you can at most spend 5 minutes a day playing them. They may be addictive, but they still leave people plenty of time to go outside and read the newest batch of federal budget amendments on a park bench.

They usually include creating virtual obligations where one has to play game at specific times. Which is degenerate.

 

[vivec]

Eh. Gaming is a drug for the mind. Good and entertaining games are bound to be addictive. That is their entire purpose. Being addicted or not is not a judgement on the game, but on the gamer. Weak minded people are always addicted to addictive substances. While the strong can pull themselves together. In that sense, the statement Sawyer makes generally makes me feel that he has no understanding of how normal people behave.

 

[mutonizer]

Eh. Gaming is a drug for the mind. Good and entertaining games are bound to be addictive. That is their entire purpose. Being addicted or not is not a judgement on the game, but on the gamer. Weak minded people are always addicted to addictive substances. While the strong can pull themselves together. In that sense, the statement Sawyer makes generally makes me feel that he has no understanding of how normal people behave.

No they're not, unless designed to be. And really, I'm 100% behind Sawyer's statement on that front.

They are and always have been tons of good and entertaining games out there (and not just talking video games, any type really) that are not at all addictive. You just play, have a grand old time, then you just move on to something else without feeling bad about it or wishing for more, you just remember that you had a good time and that's it.

Then they are games designed to be addictive because they need to become money machines and today, with all the advances in understanding on how we human work, especially the brain (chemically), a lot of fuckers are abusing it and it's so pernicious that most people are just getting hooked without even realizing it. Like all drugs, when tailored to give the appropriate high without overdose, it sells like candies (which are, btw, also mostly designed now to get your kids and yourself addicted) and people ask for more, without even knowing why, and feel down when playing something that doesn't give them the same high, as often. Consoles and MMOs didn't help but the Mobile gaming explosion is just turning this into a massive industry, touching people who's only experience with video games (and games in general) is that.

 

[Prime Junta]

^
Yeah.

What's more, then they tell themselves "Only the weak-minded get addicted, whereas I'm only doing it for the enjoyment and can stop any time."

Truly, we barely even need any help to fool ourselves.

 

[vivec]

I wonder who's fooling whom. Games are bad for you if you are hooked on them. You need no sage advice to understand that, unless of course you don't want to believe it.

 

[mutonizer]

Everything's bad for your if you're hooked on them, even sport. I think you have a very naive view on how most people handle this or you just don't care because you think you're immune or above it I guess.

Fact is, it is very, very hard to not fall into the insane amount of addictive shit surrounding us everyday, all tailored to hook us up. From purely chemical to behavioral, even knowing and being careful doesn't make it that much easier. Before, we didn't have that much science about it but today there are researches specifically made to find ways to trick your brain, and hook it up, ready for business. And it's very alive in video gaming today, with things like pacing, difficulty/reward systems, stories, characters, game mechanics and whatnot tailored to trigger addictive/compulsive behaviors in as wide an audience as possible.

That it's being done is not the problem, it's always gonna happen. That it's being ignored/hidden is, because knowing is way more than half the battle and once it's out there, then it becomes a choice.