On addictive design in RPGs

[Theldaran]

I by far prefer games which feature strong systems, strong story, strong lore, or strong exploration over games built around progression, XP rewards, or some such.

As an IE heathen, could you recommend some examples of the above?

Note that I dropped Etrian Odyssey and its lot.

My 3 favourite RPGs off the top of my head are: Shining Force 2 (strong system... well it's Fire Emblem made by Sega), Ravenloft: Stone Prophet (strong lore and exploration), and Baldur's Gate (nice exploration, but what I feel towards it it's probably just addiction in the sense you mentioned)

 

[Prime Junta]

My 3 favourite RPGs off the top of my head are: Shining Force 2 (strong system... well it's Fire Emblem made by Sega), Ravenloft: Stone Prophet (strong lore and exploration), and Baldur's Gate (nice exploration, but what I feel towards it it's probably just addiction in the sense you mentioned)

My tastes coincide fairly well with the Codex's in general actually. The Codex top 20 has about 15 I would personally recommend.

(Very few if any are strong in all areas; most in fact excel in something while falling flat in other ways.)

 

[Lhynn]

It is true that in D&D AC improvement happens through gear progression rather than character progression. The treadmill is still there. It's not a "modern MMO design."

What threadmill, what the fuck are you talking about?

As to "everything stays the same," weren't you just trashing Pillars because it's easy to outlevel things? You can't have it both ways bro.

No i was not, can you get your facts right before you shitpost for once?
Also im talking to attributes scaling in such a way that nothing changes on an even playing field. Meaning every fight plays out in the same way. You never run into gamechangers.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Then they are games designed to be addictive because they need to become money machines and today, with all the advances in understanding on how we human work, especially the brain (chemically), a lot of fuckers are abusing it and it's so pernicious that most people are just getting hooked without even realizing it. Like all drugs, when tailored to give the appropriate high without overdose, it sells like candies (which are, btw, also mostly designed now to get your kids and yourself addicted) and people ask for more, without even knowing why, and feel down when playing something that doesn't give them the same high, as often. Consoles and MMOs didn't help but the Mobile gaming explosion is just turning this into a massive industry, touching people who's only experience with video games (and games in general) is that.

It's so despicable. All these subhumans without human conscience. Degenerate mechanical minds. Reminds me about the time when I was in advertising college (went there only for art/computer graphics) and I had to learn about many sorts of alien degeneracy.

 

[Zombra]

I was in advertising college

So many questions.

 

[Lhynn]

It's so despicable. All these subhumans without human conscience. Degenerate mechanical minds. Reminds me about the time when I was in advertising college (went there only for art/computer graphics) and I had to learn about many sorts of alien degeneracy.

A couple months ago a few little girls came to the library, they are regulars that come to chill till their parents come get them, or to do their homework. One of them couldnt stop playing with her cellphone. When i asked what was so interesting she showed me one of those clicker games, she told me she had millions in that game.
The game consisted on sliding your thumb over bills to get money, with that money youd then buy more efficient ways to get money to keep sliding your finger on the screen for more money. Shed been playing that garbage all week.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

I can't believe the kind of heat Josh's common sense remarks generated in this thread. I mean we have some dumbfucks here literally screaming "Don't take away the skinner box from my games! !!" Triggered

 

[Prime Junta]

I can't believe the kind of heat Josh's common sense remarks generated in this thread. I mean we have some dumbfucks here literally screaming "Don't take away the skinner box from my games! !!" Triggered

Josh certainly knows how to get under the Codex's skin.

Another reason to like him.

 

[vivec]

Everything's bad for your if you're hooked on them, even sport. I think you have a very naive view on how most people handle this or you just don't care because you think you're immune or above it I guess.

Fact is, it is very, very hard to not fall into the insane amount of addictive shit surrounding us everyday, all tailored to hook us up. From purely chemical to behavioral, even knowing and being careful doesn't make it that much easier. Before, we didn't have that much science about it but today there are researches specifically made to find ways to trick your brain, and hook it up, ready for business. And it's very alive in video gaming today, with things like pacing, difficulty/reward systems, stories, characters, game mechanics and whatnot tailored to trigger addictive/compulsive behaviors in as wide an audience as possible.

That it's being done is not the problem, it's always gonna happen. That it's being ignored/hidden is, because knowing is way more than half the battle and once it's out there, then it becomes a choice.

Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. Because *that* is exactly what I meant. Just in the context of games.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I can't believe the kind of heat Josh's common sense remarks generated in this thread. I mean we have some dumbfucks here literally screaming "Don't take away the skinner box from my games! !!" Triggered

No, disagreeing with Sawyer's design goal of making streamlined, pick up and play games for the SA crowd doesn't suddenly mean you like playing MMOs, mobile games and similar trash (or mechanics inspired by them that plague modern RPGs).

Do you think LGS or Troika were worried about potential customers' electricity bills or were they more focused on pushing the boundaries of the medium and honing their craft? Sawyer is an excellent fit for today's risk averse, creatively bankrupt gaming industry, I'll give you that.

Josh certainly knows how to get under the Codex's skin.

Another reason to like him.

Most of the credit for that goes to Roguey and his shtick of copypasting Sawyer's quotes from his stalking folder while at the same time crapping on much more talented developers of the past and to Infinitron for his blatant shilling, not Josh himself.

 

[Lhynn]

I can't believe the kind of heat Josh's common sense remarks generated in this thread. I mean we have some dumbfucks here literally screaming "Don't take away the skinner box from my games! !!" Triggered

The problem is that josh cant make quality content worth playing, quality content in itself is addictive. Ever stayed a whole weekend reading a book with a final on monday? This is what we want. Games we literally cant stop playing because of how good they are.
And everyone here takes this as an admission he isnt even trying.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Well yeah quality content is addicting, but this is just a side effect of it being quality content.
It's obvious Josh was thinking about game mechanics that are aimed, first and foremost, at creating addiction by taking advantage of how our brains are wired (certain reward mechanisms etc). Of course in video games the lines between these two types of content are often blurry, but you will at least admit that these categories exist?

Misinterpreting Josh's statement as 'I hate quality content' is either an attempt at deliberately twisting what he said or the result of being too stupid to understand that words can have several meanings (what? he said addictive games are bad? But I played this super deep RPG with lot's of quality content lately, and it has been sooo addictive. Oh jeez, this Josh is a retard -> come on, this is reasoning on the level of a 5 year old).

Also, whether or not Josh is able to create quality content is up to debate, but it has no bearing on the validity of his statement.

 

[Lhynn]

Thing is, every content producer out there is aiming at content that is of enough quality to keep the player interested in it. He isnt, he wants something easy to pick up and as easy to put down. This translates to just a shallow waste of time in my books.
PoE stands as the biggest piece of evidence of this.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Josh certainly knows how to get under the GamerGate refugee's skin.

Another reason to like him.

You had a typo in your post, fixed it for you.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Lhynn put your hate for the man aside for a moment, you genuinely think that "I want to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive" translates into ' I will deliberately create shallow content that is a waste of time?'

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Thing is, every content produce out there is aiming at content that is of enough quality to keep the player interested in it. He isnt, he wants something easy to pick up and as easy to put down. This translates to just a shallow waste of time in my books.
PoE stands as the biggest piece of evidence of this.

Well, he is a bad game designer. But then so is most of game designers.

 

[Lacrymas]

Lhynn put your hate for the man aside for a moment, you genuinely think that "I want to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive" translates into ' I will deliberately create shallow content that is a waste of time?'

He literally said that he thinks we should be doing anything else instead of playing games, soooo. PoE couldn't engage in any meaningful way, so we kinda connect the dots there.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Please man, don't tell me he hurt your feelings because he was dismissive about your hobby? Am I still on the 'dex? Being above that shit used to be what elevated this place above other hardcore gayming communities.

He said players should be able 'to put games down when they have something more important to do, which should be anything really'. So tell me, is there anything besides watching TV or wasting away on your couch that is potentially not more important (not fun, not engaging, not pleasant - important) than playing video games?

 

[Lacrymas]

It has nothing to do with my "feelings", I was just answering why we think his "I want to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive" translates into "I will deliberately create shallow content that is a waste of time?". They already admitted to making the stronghold as pointless and worthless as possible. You can say that about any hobby, what do you think we should be doing with our free time that is more important? Learn to play an instrument? I already do that. What else? Sport? I do that, too. Work with no free time whatsoever?

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

"They already admitted to making the stronghold as pointless and worthless as possible" -> Yeah I'm sure they did, no chance someone been twisting their words again and taking them out of context. You gotta quote on that?

"You can say that about any hobby, what do you think we should be doing with our free time that is more important? Learn to play an instrument? I already do that. What else? Sport? I do that, too. Work with no free time whatsoever?"

I can think of thousands of things, like spending time with your kids, improving your skills, advancing your career, reading quality literature of planning an exciting journey, but this is not a discussion I want to get in.

The point is that Josh wasn't saying you should do anything instead of playing games, he said people should be able to put down games when they have more important stuff to do, which - depending on their personal situation - might be almost anything indeed.

 

[Lacrymas]

I can think of thousands of things, like spending time with your kids, improving your skills, advancing your career, reading quality literature of planning an exciting journey, but this is not a discussion I want to get in.

What we do with our free time is our choice, not to mention that you are on a forum dedicated to talking about video games since 2005, so you are the last person to judge. I already do enough of those things you mentioned (except kids, because I don't have any), but I don't consider them free time.

Anyway, the quote at SA forums ( http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...06905&pagenumber=576&perpage=40#post447867960 ) -

Josh:
"There are a non-trivial number of players that absolutely loathe strongholds as a concept and never want to interact with stronghold mechanics. It's difficult to make something feel robust and rewarding but also completely optional."

"And if we gated a bunch of quests through the stronghold, there would be complaints about that. It's not really an "everyone wins" decision since some people hate stronghold-gated content. That said, if we had spare area and narrative design resources during development, sure we'd make some stronghold specific content. That was never the case and it still wasn't the case on the expansion. Whatever work is done on gated content is work not being done on content available to everyone."


Someone else:
You "gated" a lot of good content, including a character quest, behind the Endless Paths, though, and that was optional as well.

Stronghold content is available to everyone, though, it's just that, much like the endless paths, it's optional.

Josh:
"You're downplaying the aversion that people have to strongholds, specifically. If there's a "I hate big dungeons" bloc of significant size, I'm unaware of them. Stronghold aversion seems more comparable to romance aversion."


Someone else:
I would expect something with parity with the games this was inspired by. So, when I think of what my expectations are for a stronghold in PoE were, I thought maybe a total number of quests (with similar depth) to the multitude of Strongholds in BG2.

Josh:
"Do you want us to cut six quests and ~20 characters/dialogues from the expansion areas for the stronghold?"

And another link - https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/82259-is-the-stronghold-boring-on-purpose/

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Look nobody is telling you what to do with your free time, neither me nor Josh nor anybody. I rest my case though, I really feel like this is going nowhere.

About that stronghold, as I expected it's just a case of having to prioritize stuff and make trade-offs due to limited time and resources, and don't see how that is supposed to support your argument (Josh is bent on making shitty games because he hates vidya) in any way.

 

[Brancaleone]

That's a great suggestion for [insert favourite music artist] to compose the dullest music album in the world, then write half a paragraph explaining that it was totally on purpose, don't want people to waste all day listening to my music, addiction-based techniques of composition of pop-music are a real huge problem, I want people to be able to listen to my music for five seconds tops and then be able to press stop, there are much more important things to do in life than listening to music, what about the damage earphones cause to people's eardrums, electricity consumption from speakers is killing nature, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Lacrymas]

About that stronghold, as I expected it's just a case of having to prioritize stuff and make trade-offs due to limited time and resources, and don't see how that is supposed to support your argument (Josh is bent on making shitty games because he hates vidya) in any way.

I was semi-joking about that actually, but his quotes are really suspicious. He doesn't hate games, he just thinks we should be doing something, anything, else instead.

That's a great suggestion for [insert favourite music artist] to compose the dullest music album in the world, then write half a paragraph explaining that it was totally on purpose, don't want people to waste all day listening to my music, addiction-based techniques of composition of pop-music are a real huge problem, I want people to be able to listen to my music for five seconds tops and then be able to press stop, there are much more important things to do in life than listening to music, what about the damage earphones cause to people's eardrums, electricity consumption from speakers is killing nature, etc. etc. etc.

Yeap. It's simply demagoguery on Josh's part.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I was in advertising college

So many questions.

What questions :D ?