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Wadjet Eye Primordia - A Point and Click Adventure - Now Available

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Well, the main arc of Primordia is the question whether Horatio can overcome his programming to become a more moral being, and the answer (unless you pick the kill 'em all ending) is yes.

Former jobs put me in the position of justifying very severe criminal punishments. I am pretty much convinced that (1) most monsters are made that way by monstrous things happening to them; (2) many people have monstrous things happen to them but do not become monsters; (3) monsters aren't less awful because they were made monstrous by others -- one hopes there will be some salvation for them in one way or another, and you cannot help but weep for the past incarnation of that person who suffered so awfully, but you can't ignore their present wrongdoing or the whole world will go to hell. "You can't help it, it's the way you are" is always a terrible message to give someone, even if it is sometimes true. "It's not his fault so we can't punish him" is a terrible thing to tell yourself.
 

lightbane

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What about people who are already born damaged? Psychos and the like?

Nevertheless, once again I must say that this game was quite awesome, although I didn't agree with the villain's words, I found it cool you can decide to rebel and die honorably against her enforcer, or join together and create a composite mind of sorts, along with many other endings.
 

V_K

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monsters aren't less awful because they were made monstrous by others -- one hopes there will be some salvation for them in one way or another, and you cannot help but weep for the past incarnation of that person who suffered so awfully, but you can't ignore their present wrongdoing or the whole world will go to hell. "You can't help it, it's the way you are" is always a terrible message to give someone, even if it is sometimes true. "It's not his fault so we can't punish him" is a terrible thing to tell yourself.
This makes sense ethically. Pragmatically, however, if a "monster" can be rehabilitated into a productive member of society, it's always more cost-efficient (and better for everyone involved) to do so than to just lock them away. The only thing more cost-efficient is to focus on preventing the creation of monsters (in which prisons play no small part).
Nordic countries have some of the most lax penitentiary systems, yet some of the lowest crime rates - and these two things aren't unconnected.
 

MRY

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lightbane I'm sure it happens, but it is probably actually fairly hard to disentangle because a child born with, say, schizophrenia is vastly more likely to be abused. There were certainly a few people who came through with mostly okay childhoods, but they were typically not connected with what I considered "monstrous" crimes. In the "monstrous crime" category, almost every single one was horrifically abused, addicted to drugs and alcohol at a young age, suffering from some kind of low-level mental disorder, etc.

V_K Ah, I'm not really equipped to have a policy debate on the Codex, but I think that this largely confuses cause and effect. For instance, "People who visit chiropractors are actually far more likely to have chronic back pain than people who don't" isn't necessarily a case against chiropractors because suffering from chronic back pain creates a greater likelihood of seeking chiropractors out in the first place. The Nordic countries have so many confounding factors (e.g., until recently, very homogeneous, relatively prosperous populations). Also, isn't Sweden the rape capital of the developed world? :/ Like the Nordic countries, African countries have very low incarceration rates, but they have very high crime rates. China has very high incarceration rate -- and very bad penal conditions -- but its murder rate is basically the same as Sweden's.

At the end of the day, my view is that rehabilitation, where possible, is massively better than punishment. But I am skeptical how often it is possible, at least under the conditions in which criminals come into the U.S. justice system.
 

V_K

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but I think that this largely confuses cause and effect
I'm not. I don't have the receipts on me right now, but I remember reading that e.g. in Denmark crime rates were higher in the past, and got much lower once penitentiary system switched focus from punishment to rehabilitation.

Also, isn't Sweden the rape capital of the developed world?
That's because of how crimes are defined differently in different countries. Basically, what is a dubious sexual harrasment case in US can be a rape case in Sweden, and moreover they count each action as separate act. E.g. someone got groped twice - that's two counts of rape by Swedish definition. This naturally results in much higher reported statistics, while in fact Sweden is a much safer place for women than US.
 

MRY

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Yet the U.S. crime rate plummeted as incarceration rates soared and prisons became much worse. That said, "We reduced crime by jailing millions at the cost of billions" is like bragging about winning WWII by carpet bombing German cities. It is a hard case to make out, and even if you can, it's not something to brag about, but rather something to feel queasy about because you chose a lesser evil that was itself pretty awful. Scandinavia should be delighted thus far to have evaded the twin scourges of suffering crime and punishing it. Hopefully that won't change.

Anyway, it is painfully obvious to me that there are interventions much better than prison that can be done earlier in life. Stable family homes, good jobs, schools that didn't pathologize masculinity, etc. But it's tricky because many communities can't change when smothered in violence. For instance, if public parks are unsafe because of gangs, that increases likelihood of young men being drawn to gangs. If people who victimize children are left around children, that creates a new generation inured to cruelty.

Anyway, like I said, I think it's too complex a subject for me to adequately debate, let alone on the Codex! So I'll bow out here and give you the last word if you want it.
 

V_K

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"We reduced crime by jailing millions at the cost of billions"
Not in the "last word" sense, but that's another peculiar thing I learned about Scandinavian prisons: they largely aren't supported with tax money. Prisoners are actually being charged the costs of their incarceration upon release - though of course, there are programs in place that ensure they can find a job at that point. I think that's brilliant tbh.
 

Starwars

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Just made it to Metropol. I love this game!

Two little things that are kinda cool:

1. I love Horatios and Crispins relationship and their sort of outlook on the world. There's such a nice naivete to them. Even Horatio, who is the grumpy leader, feels clueless when faced with the rest of the world. I love that.

2. I love that there so many little unique interfaces for interacting with things. Punching in the codes on the decryption device, setting the coordinates for the telescope etc etc. All those things really makes the world come "alive" and also sells the fact that... well, it's all old beat up pieces of junk.
 

MRY

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Thanks guys!

Vic really outdid himself on the UIs. I think my favorite is opening the pocket on the skeleton, but I really like the generator, too. (I like all of them, of course, but those might be my favorites).
 

MRY

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This is the first, and likely last, time in my life I've been called pretty. Setting aside what you guys think about Primordia, I'm definitely going to bask in that!

And yes -- there are two basic strategies with such things: exaggerated braggadocio intended to make one's success and fame a self-fueling fire and exaggerated humility designed to avoid a backlash. Usually I pursue the latter approach, with the occasional humblebrag thrown in ("It's crazy how Steam's weird rating system makes Primordia the 15th highest rated game" and so forth).

That said, when I played through Primordia to test the Spanish translation, I found the game better than I remembered in some respects (such as the banter) and worse than I remembered in others (generally puzzle-design/pacing issues, but also secondary characters' voice acting, certain animations, and certain polish issues). While I have generally found every adventure game from my childhood worse than I remembered it, I still think that Primordia does not rate as a true classic for a variety of reasons: (1) in almost every instance, the classics pushed the genre forward (e.g., King's Quest III's timer and spell variety; QFG's novel gameplay; Loom's "easy to win" design and non-traditional interface; KQV's verb bar; SQIV's amusing time travel (albeit something of a gimmick); Monkey Island's puzzle design; GK's real-world setting and great length; Blade Runner's non-traditional gameplay and detective mechanics; The Last Express's real-time gameplay; Grim Fandango's production values and epic sweep; etc.). It's true that we have a tendency to call any semi-competent adventure game from the post-parser age a "classic," but if we're being realistic, games like Beneath a Steel Sky (for all it inspired Vic) or IHNMAIS or Kyrandia or Dragonsphere (a personal off-the-beaten-path favorite) are not really classics. I think Primordia on its best day through the kindest lens is comparable to some of these well-made older games, but it doesn't rise to the level of a "classic" along any metric, except maybe the visuals in Vic's close-ups, which are pretty unbelievable. For all SQIV and GK had great cinematics, I don't think any of them are quite as striking as, for example, Primordia's first 10 seconds.


[EDIT: On re-reading this, I realize my "variety of reasons" stopped at 1. I guess the others I was thinking of probably related to length, technical quality of graphics in comparison to the then-state-of-the-art (almost every "classic" adventure had cutting edge graphics -- Loom especially in this respect, whereas Primordia's graphics are plainly not cutting edge, regardless of the art quality), puzzle variety, and cultural impact.]
 
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Jaesun

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Something you overlook is the sum of the whole. Primorida has a well assembled good and great design, mechanics and dialogue, and atmosphere (and setting).

It is a very well done game.
 
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Starwars

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Finished it. Yep, it's definitely up there with my fav adventure games of all time. Like Jaesun says, it's such a great package.

Only thing that was a bit of a shame is that the music didn't play when viewing the whole Horus' log cutscene (when attacking Metropol). I seem to remember that happening on my last playthrough as well, maybe a big that crept in somewhere?
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Weird. Let me check with the coder. I remember hearing of that glitch at some stage. Unfortunately we can't sell WEG on letting us patch the game again because their QC process is too long. Might be able to squeeze it into the port to next version of AGS that is theoretically happening some day. That music is quite good so it's a shame to lose it.
 

Starwars

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I agree, I remember doing that sequence the first time I played the game and it was definitely *a moment* so to speak.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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That is, perhaps blessedly, one form of fan-created material Primordia has not had. Poems, songs, sculptures, plushies, paintings, stories, CGI, 3D models, animations, yes. Rule 34, no.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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"You know, Clarity, I may not have arms, Horatio *did* give me..." etc. Really, it writes itself, and perhaps explains how he was able to tie that knot.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
That is, perhaps blessedly, one form of fan-created material Primordia has not had. Poems, songs, sculptures, plushies, paintings, stories, CGI, 3D models, animations, yes. Rule 34, no.

There's only so much you can do with hardware ports.

Then again, we do have images like these:

pEox5VW.jpg
 

SilverSpook

Silver Spook Games
Developer
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Apr 13, 2017
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Had a fun interview about Primordia, Fallen Gods, and our little project Strageland: http://www.cshpicone.com/interview-mark-yohalem

Chris is a thoughtful guy and recently did a cool interview of Vince and the ITS gang.

Just got through both interviews. Fallen Gods and Strangeland sound most intriguing! Always looking forward to a WWS project, and there are two in the works!? Most excellent.
 

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