Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[IDtenT]

Seriously, except for the C&C what was that much better mechanic-wise? Gameplay felt pretty much the same for me.

So now we're at "other than the primary roleplaying mechanic what mechanics were different"?

WTF? In what universe is C&C the primary mechanic of RPGs?

 

[CyberP]

Josh says acceptable for RPGs isn't good enough. So by his own standards and your comments, NV Balance isn't good enough

Obviously not. the guy continued to work on the game without pay in the form of a mod. Now that's dedication.

 

[Abelian]

Obviously not. the guy continued to work on the game without pay in the form of a mod. Now that's dedication.

Reminded me of this.

Here comes Josh singing oldies, goldies
Darklands, Icewind Dale
Here comes Josh singing I Gotta Balance
Down in the forums, trying to make it pay
He got the action, he got the motion
Yeah, the boy can play
Dedication devotion
Turning all the night time into the day

He do the song about the sweet lovin' Courier
He do the game about the Ciphe'
He do the walk, he do the walk of life

Here comes Josh and he'll tell you the story
Hand me down my designing shoes
Here come Josh with the power and the glory
Backbeat the biking blues
He got the action, he got the motion
Yeah, the boy can play
Dedication devotion
Turning all the night time into the day

He do the song about the sweet lovin' Courier
He do the game about the Ciphe'
He do the walk, he do the walk of life

Here comes Josh singing oldies, goldies
Darklands, Icewind Dale
Here comes Josh singing I Gotta Balance
Down in the forums, trying to make it pay
He got the action, he got the motion
Yeah the boy can play
Decidation devotion
Turning all the night time into the day

And after all the violence and double talk
There's just a game in the trouble and the strife
You do the walk, you do the walk of life

 

[Morality Games]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG. I have a lot of hours in that game, it's a time waster, like an mmo. It's really easy to jump into, but doesn't leave a lasting impression.(Isn't very replayable, and doesn't have a definite end) Also he's right in the Oblivion comparison, but you could also take that as an insult for what is a truly awful game.

There has to be something more here to explain why it sold so many more millions over Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas, and I'm going to try to find it.

... a viking with a big beard and axe fighting a dragon in the commercial and the Elder Scrolls theme blaring out of Used Game stores across several continents for like a month + visual demonstrations of the landscape.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Seriously, except for the C&C what was that much better mechanic-wise? Gameplay felt pretty much the same for me.

So now we're at "other than the primary roleplaying mechanic what mechanics were different"?

WTF? In what universe is C&C the primary mechanic of RPGs?

Well what do you think it is? Character creation/building? If you remove that from a game you'll be left with the witcher, which most would say is an RPG, remove c&c/reactivity and you'd have Borderlands, which only the truly popamole would really consider anything more than an ARPG.

 

[praetor]

I read the descriptions of PoE's class abilities and they look damn fine to me.

of course they do when...

yeah...

 

[Shannow]

Reasoning, people. It's what sane, rational people give. Let's hear it.

Been down this road many times, and don't feel like going down it again. Especially when defenders of shit games merely attempt the "exhaust other party" debating tactic (also known as the Khor method).

Which is why I keep an Obsidian.txt. I just need to open it and...
"FO3:NV 5/10:
Beth's sloppy seconds. Same shitty gameplay and charactersystem as FO3. Too many "go back and forth, fetch this and that" quests. Some retarded parts but overall good gameworld/quests/factions. Skills more usefull than in FO3. Better writing but every npc bores you with his lifestory. Better exploration and challenge than FO3."

Damn, that sounds much more positive than it should. *shrug*

And whoever said it: M&B is not First Person, FFS.

 

[Ninjerk]

Pretty much everyone's opinion on FNV is wrong. People who like it overrate it, and people who don't like it underrate it. You're all faggots anyways. Eat shit.

 

[Roguey]

Definitely not polished action games. Quoting Jeff Gerstmann:

Can't have extreme polish with kitchen sink design.

Somebody has to make an RPG where the moment to moment gameplay is both visceral and fun. I honestly don't think it's that hard to do, but if you dump everything and the kitchen sink into a game, there's not much of a chance the core gameplay is ever going to receive enough attention to move beyond being "okay".

I disagree that it's terrible as a rule. Dark Messiah, Chivalry, Mount and Blade, and Dishonored did it well. No argument that the FO3 engine is terrible.

I feel that a 1st person perspective will always handicap melee. The biggest problems are low situational awareness (due to the proximity of enemies and the limitations of FoV -- in fact the DMoMM designer admitted that enemies effectively hold back when out of view to deal with this problem), poor readability of your own character's attacks (for the same reason), and poor depth perception (a DMoMM designer admitted that their hit detection effectively "cheats" to help the player).

I sort of view first-person melee like turbine-powered motorcycles. You can make a well-executed turbine-powered motorcycle. Unfortunately, turbines are poorly suited for the sort of use that motorcycles actually see in most applications. DMoMM was the most viscerally satisfying first-person melee I've seen yet, but I found it frustrating to actually play.

Sure, there are no problems with positioning in the sense that positioning isn't even really a part of the melee combat system. VATS lets you teleport around without taking damage, so half of the tactical challenge that makes those other games work is completely missing from FO3 and NV. The other half is blocking or any kind of defensive abilities, and that's also missing. Finally, all the different melee attacks in NV are functionally identical. Melee combat is basically 1) get in range, 2) tap into VATS, 3) click click click, 4) VICTORY! It's possibly the most braindead melee system in any game I've ever played, not even trying to be hyperbolic. Skyrim is superior by default because it has some actual tactical options in melee, like shield-bashing, shield breaking, managing stamina, light and heavy attacks, and positioning that isn't broken.

I don't know which game you were playing, and yes you are being hyperbolic.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_combat
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Attack_(Fallout:_New_Vegas)

Maneuvering in Bethbryo feels bad, so making positioning more abstract is a plus. You can block outside of VATS; blocking with it wouldn't make much sense. With my unarmed character, knockdowns followed by stomps were useful on enemies with a lot of health, and crosses were better to use on deathclaws than uppercuts. Moreover, taking on groups of deathclaws, or groups of high-level gun-users (like Legionary assassins) requires more than just spamming vats.

Unarmed and Melee are "feast or famine" builds. When you rock, you rock. When you suck, you suck. The circumstances make a big difference in Unarmed/Melee. Specifically, if the targets are a) spread out and using high DAM weapons or b) high DAM, high health Unarmed/Melee opponents, you can have difficulty.

Many people use Unarmed/Melee as a second, third, or fourth run-through build. Having a general idea of where enemies are (and what they are) is very important for Unarmed/Melee -- more than with Guns or EW. If you get the drop on enemies, you can end fights before they begin, even outside of sneaking. I've played through most areas of the game so many times that It doesn't usually matter what type of weapons I'm using as long as they're somewhat appropriate for the enemies' HP/DT.

That said, I'm fine with people generally feeling Unarmed/Melee are more powerful than other weapon types. If you look at it from a pure DAM/DPS perspective, there are certainly weapons that outshine the top tier Unarmed/Melee weapons and don't require you to be within 5' of the target. But when Unarmed/Melee shines, it feels tremendously powerful, and I think that's good for people who want to specialize in it.

Fair enough. I know a lot of people who agree with me. Question; do you play shooters?

I have in the past, I find many of them uneven or unable to hold my interest for long.

I don't see why that would prevent them from being responsive. Perfect Dark did limb crippling back in 2000 and had excellent damage feedback for enemies:

"Shoot an enemy and it immediately gets stunlocked until it dies" isn't the feeling they're going for (until you cripple that torso), moreover, there are animation tool/memory issues preventing really detailed animations.

Pretty much everyone's opinion on FNV is wrong. People who like it overrate it, and people who don't like it underrate it. You're all faggots anyways. Eat shit.

One of the best RPGs ever created, but also extremely junk and could never be considered great. My opinion is sound.

 

[Sensuki]

Some of the classes feel really good and some feel shit atm. Rogues and Rangers are p. shitty atm IMO

 

[Duraframe300]

I've never really needed to use VATS in F:NV. Iron Sights made the shooting more than passable.

 

[Grunker]

Rangers are p. shitty atm IMO

I agree, but I really see the potential in Rangers. I've had fun pondering how to use them, it's just that they handle pretty shit atm.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah the potential is there, absolutely.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I've never really needed to use VATS in F:NV. Iron Sights made the shooting more than passable.

...

 

[CyberP]

VATS is indeed optional (and shit)...but it does help when backed into a corner or to slow time and reload because it's so OP. I try not to use it against anything but Deathclaws, legendaries etc, it's more of a last resort fallback...it's such shit though, why did you not change it, Obsidian? simply making AP not regenerate automatically over time on hardcore mode would have made it require some stategy. This is the bare minimum work you should have done to fix this problem (and have sleep regenerate it, maybe some rare item types also).
And yeah, the Iron Sights makes the combat more interesting. If you're making your shooter slow-paced you may as well add Iron Sights.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Has the beta gotten any better since launch? I lost interest after the lions started killing themselves.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Can't have extreme polish with kitchen sink design.

You can if you have enough resources to throw at a game; see GTAV. But yeah, I'm sure this is the main reason the older games were clunky. My point is that Skyrim was a big step forwards in terms of polish.

Maneuvering in Bethbryo feels bad, so making positioning more abstract is a plus. You can block outside of VATS; blocking with it wouldn't make much sense.

It removes a lot of the shitty feeling gameplay, but unfortunately it doesn't replace it with interesting gameplay. Like Gerstmann said, combat is either frustrating, or dull. Playing as an unarmed character, blocking was never useful. Blocking in VATS doesn't make sense because VATS is god mode - removing frustration isn't an excuse for dull gameplay.

With my unarmed character, knockdowns followed by stomps were useful on enemies with a lot of health, and crosses were better to use on deathclaws than uppercuts.

Rarely even useful, let alone necessary. An ability that's only situationally decent a handful of times in a game is a badly designed ability.

"Shoot an enemy and it immediately gets stunlocked until it dies" isn't the feeling they're going for (until you cripple that torso)

There are plenty of other ways to give clear feedback, like Halo's shield flare and Borderlands number floats. The point is they should have found some way to do it.

there are animation tool/memory issues preventing really detailed animations.

That might be a perfectly fair explanation, but it doesn't change the fact that the final game lacks polish.

Josh Sawyer quotes

Seen em already.

 

[CyberP]

Can't have extreme polish with kitchen sink design.

You can if you have enough resources to throw at a game; see GTAV. But yeah, I'm sure this is the main reason the older games were clunky. My point is that Skyrim was a big step forwards in terms of polish.

Both games are polished turds. Seriously who gives a shit, good design is what matters first and foremost. Obsidian patched the game up good after release so all is well.

 

[Sensuki]

Has the beta gotten any better since launch? I lost interest after the lions started killing themselves.

Come back in a month or so.

 

[pippin]

VATS is indeed optional (and shit)...but it does help when backed into a corner or to slow time and reload because it's so OP. I try not to use it against anything but Deathclaws, legendaries etc, it's more of a last resort fallback...it's such shit though, why did you not change it, Obsidian? simply making AP not regenerate automatically over time on hardcore mode would have made it require some stategy. This is the bare minimum work you should have done to fix this problem (and have sleep regenerate it, maybe some rare item types also).

And yeah, the Iron Sights makes the combat more interesting. If you're making your shooter slow-paced you may as well add Iron Sights.

Iron sights made combat in NV more passable than what it was in FO3. I coudln't aim for shit in FO3. It doesn't help that the engine fucks you when more than 2 or 3 enemies are attacking you at close range. Fighting Legion assasins, for instance, is a pain in the ass. In the end, it becomes clear that sneaking will be more helpful than going straight ahead, but not because the game was designed to work that way. Personally, I can forgive that because I enjoy NV more for its writing and faction system.

 

[IDtenT]

Seriously, except for the C&C what was that much better mechanic-wise? Gameplay felt pretty much the same for me.

So now we're at "other than the primary roleplaying mechanic what mechanics were different"?

WTF? In what universe is C&C the primary mechanic of RPGs?

Well what do you think it is? Character creation/building? If you remove that from a game you'll be left with the witcher, which most would say is an RPG, remove c&c/reactivity and you'd have Borderlands, which only the truly popamole would really consider anything more than an ARPG.

Derp. The only C&C that's a must for an RPG (and this doesn't fall in the category of what many consider C&C) is character creation; how you create your character should be the determining mechanic for all in-game consequences - not player choice.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Tell that to the Witcher fans, hell, I agree with you to an extent, I think both are necessary, but it doesn't seem to fall in line with the accepted definition of what an RPG is.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Tell that to the Witcher fans

They can go suck some potato cock for all i care.

 

[tuluse]

Derp. The only C&C that's a must for an RPG (and this doesn't fall in the category of what many consider C&C) is character creation; how you create your character should be the determining mechanic for all in-game consequences - not player choice.

Why even play the game? Just make a character and be told what happens to him or her.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Derp. The only C&C that's a must for an RPG (and this doesn't fall in the category of what many consider C&C) is character creation; how you create your character should be the determining mechanic for all in-game consequences - not player choice.

Why even play the game? Just make a character and be told what happens to him or her.

Jesus - that's a lazy counter.