Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[CyberP]

<- me when I realize the Codex is the only large enough to be relevant domain that feels the same way.

 

[Roguey]

There are a lot of things that Skyrim could do differently that would make me like it more, but I don't dislike it. I don't like the "go to a new city, fill up on quests, do some quests, come back to sell loot, go do more quests, come back to sell loot, go do more quests, come back to sell loot" routine but I don't like that in any game. I'm so glad SkyUI has a value:weight display option so I can only pick up stuff that has a mid-to-high double digit score. I feel like there's enough variety in the dungeonzzzz to keep me interested in playing as I've been sporadically detailing.

Skyrim was a mega-hit because it's an open world fantasy game with mostly-okay/decent/good art that doesn't play too terribly once you gain a few levels as long as you're not expecting something that tries to be physically/mentally demanding (except in a few spots or if you try to tackle content in areas where the minimum level is higher than yours), and it has enough polish to not be irritating. I experienced my first crash only after over a month of play.

I crack a smile every time I come across recycled geometry in dungeons and houses and such. Alas, poor Bioware.

 

[tuluse]

So your theory for why Skyrim is so popular is that it's big and doesn't suck?

Edit: and I suppose fantasy, though I'm not convinced how much this matters

 

[Roguey]

So your theory for why Skyrim is so popular is that it's big and doesn't suck?

Edit: and I suppose fantasy, though I'm not convinced how much this matters

It would have less appeal if it had worse art (like Dragon Age 2), or was more physically/mentally demanding (like even New Vegas), or more lacking in polish (like previous Beth games, New Vegas again).

Incidentally I'm pretty convinced that DA2 was largely received as badly as it was by the mainstream because of the obvious-corner cutting content padding. If it had been 10-30 hours there'd mostly just be people griping that it wasn't long enough. IMO RPG developers catering to game-length jerks always has a detrimental effect on quality (and yes I know BG2 is an exception, dunno how that happened).

 

[Rivmusique]

But DA2 was PCgamer 'game of the decade'?.

 

[CyberP]

When I look at pop culture if today and the many electronic media products related to it, well, Skyrim is a fucking masterpiece in comparison and actually deep & intellectually stimulating to some degree as opposed to the majority which is wasteful, mindless trash; not entertaining nor educational. We'd do well to remember that, but Skyrim's still pretty shitty and not what it should have been. Aside from engine related design I see very few genuine "advancement" in it over it's predecessors, rather the opposite really, a lot is missing. Design that there was no way to justify removing.

 

[CyberP]

But DA2 was PCgamer 'game of the decade'?.

PC gamer's opinion is obsolete today, even if they still...go out of their way, if you will, to respect some of the classics.

 

[Lhynn]

You dont really have to quest in skyrim, and i advice you to just install quest mods, companion mods and a gameplay overhaul to enjoy it. vanilla is awful.

 

[eremita]

You dont really have to quest in skyrim, and i advice you to just install quest mods, companion mods and a gameplay overhaul to enjoy it. vanilla is awful.

Do you have any advice regarding those mods. I don't wanna end up with some japanese waifu... I guess it has to fit the setting and whole tone/atmosphere in order to work for me.

 

[TheGreatOne]

You dont really have to quest in skyrim, and i advice you to just install quest mods, companion mods and a gameplay overhaul to enjoy it. vanilla is awful.

Why play a game that needs mods in order to be considered good when you could just play a competently designed game that's fun to play as it is?

Also, still not bored of the same half-assed quests, copy & paste dungeons and popamole RPG systems & general gameplay yet?

Haven't you read any of this guys posts? That's exactly what he wants, he refuses to play more complex and mentally demanding RPGs because they're too hard and for grognards. He has put 200 hours into Skyrim because it is so popamole, ie "Josh approved".

 

[Sensuki]

someone run a burning wheel game pls

Id love to run a burning wheel over your body about 10 times for the abominations against gaming you've committed. Fuck you

wtf

Hahah I saw that as well. Pissed myself laughing

 

[Infinitron]

Why play a game that needs mods in order to be considered good when you could just play a competently designed game that's fun to play as it is?

Ironically, this is an almost exact quotation of Josh Sawyer's opinion on RPGs and houseruling

 

[Roguey]

But DA2 was PCgamer 'game of the decade'?.

Game journalists tend to be Bioware fanboys/girls because most of them are pretentious. They're also only a subset of the mainstream. After the first sweep of reviews, cooler heads showed up.

Aside from engine related design I see very few genuine "advancement" in it over it's predecessors,

I do.

Design that there was no way to justify removing.

When I looked at the differences between Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim and saw something where I couldn't reverse-engineer the path of intent in its change (e.g. custom spells), I assumed it fell under "scope control."

 

[Rake]

Why play a game that needs mods in order to be considered good when you could just play a competently designed game that's fun to play as it is?

Ironically, this is an almost exact quotation of Josh Sawyer's opinion on RPGs and houseruling

Funny how a big part of PoE's audience will mod it to hell and back to remove parts Sawyer insisted on.

 

[Roguey]

He's fine with that.

If we inserted option switches for every game element a subset of players wanted to toggle, it would become Option Switches: The Game. Looking at the load order discussions of the "average" F:NV PC mod user should indicate that's a battle that, practically speaking, can't be won.

The goal of systems/mechanics designers is to make those aspects of the game enjoyable to those who are open to enjoying them. If you start designing games around things that subsets of players don't like, you won't have much left to play.

I don't think we should try to make everyone happy, but I do think that as developers we should recognize and try to appeal to the major "chunks" of our audience.

 

[TheGreatOne]

Apparently people who were at first looking forward to PoE aren't the major chunks of PoE's audience. Right thing to do (TM)

 

[Roguey]

The sky will perhaps start falling in February with no delay announced. In the meantime, it's just beta issues.

 

[CyberP]

I assumed it fell under "scope control."

Yet the world/level designers can run wild copy-pasting and therefore adding more work for everyone? If the world was half the size there would be twice as much quality. Game designers haven't got the means to masterfully create extremely large, fully explorable simulated worlds. Not when they have things called deadlines and such. Obsidian was smart and kept the game world reasonably small to produce quality, but still large enough to keep on giving and feel immersive.

Also, when I spoke of design that there was no justice in removing I wasn't quite referring to spell making. That was gone in Oblivion if I remember correctly.

 

[Sensuki]

Are you going to read my PE Beta Preview Roguey ?

 

[Roguey]

Yet the world/level designers can run wild copy-pasting and therefore adding more work for everyone?

I don't know if it creates more work for everyone. It's true that Skyrim's quantity is a big part of its appeal.

Also, when I spoke of design that there was no justice in removing I wasn't quite referring to spell making. That was gone in Oblivion if I remember correctly.

Mistaken:

Custom Spells Custom spells are created by paying a Spellmaker. Custom spells are created for gold at an Altar of Spellmaking. Custom spells are not available.

Are you going to read my PE Beta Preview Roguey ?

I'm ignoring pretty much everything about PoE until the finished product is out. I was pretty lenient and reasonable about Wasteland 2's beta, especially compared to others, but it was a good lesson in how the sausage is made.

 

[Sensuki]

I'm actually doing it in two parts - one this month and one next year.

 

[Lhynn]

You dont really have to quest in skyrim, and i advice you to just install quest mods, companion mods and a gameplay overhaul to enjoy it. vanilla is awful.

Why play a game that needs mods in order to be considered good when you could just play a competently designed game that's fun to play as it is?

Dude, you just said the most retarded line ever. you play games to have fun, if the game needs modifications to provide you with entertainment, then you do a balance between the effort it takes to modify it and the fun you can squeeze out of it. For example nwn to me was one of the most enjoyable experiences in my gaming life, but only because of the amount of quality fan made modules available. If i though like you do i would have missed out on that.

Why play a game that needs mods in order to be considered good when you could just play a competently designed game that's fun to play as it is?

Ironically, this is an almost exact quotation of Josh Sawyer's opinion on RPGs and houseruling

My problem with josh is that he sucks at it, ive said it before, his intentions are noble, he just lacks the skills to pull it off. Hes a smart dude, but needs someone to hit him in the head or pat him in the shoulder depending on whether his idea is good or bad.

House-ruling is good, its something every DM should eventually do to improve the experience he wants to provide his group with. Thats one of the reasons i DM AD&D, its a simple system thats very easy to house-rule to meet my needs, and that gets my players to roleplay their characters.

You dont really have to quest in skyrim, and i advice you to just install quest mods, companion mods and a gameplay overhaul to enjoy it. vanilla is awful.

Do you have any advice regarding those mods. I don't wanna end up with some japanese waifu... I guess it has to fit the setting and whole tone/atmosphere in order to work for me.

Guess falksaar is good enough, miles ahead of vanilla, but still a bit boring. It has the same quest structure of vanilla with its "go to this dungeon and clear it, then come back and we move on with the story". but there is a massive dungeon that while about as lineal as vanilla ones, was pretty fun to play tru.

Maids 2 seemed like a campy B movie quest, with ninja prostitutes and heroes working for the bad guys, and you walking in on this. But it suddenly started taking itself more seriously and i dont know how i feel about that. My only problem with it is that theres much travelling involved and i dont really use fast travel, so pacing feels pretty slow. It seems to offer a lot of C&C all the way tru, a lot of it seems biowarean, but not all of it, plus there is a lot of hidden shit. It comes with a companion, but you can tell her to mind her own bussiness and go to the kitchen, so its alright (I like that it lets you be a total asshole, a decent guy, or a cold mofo in most interactions with anyone). Ive yet to complete it, its really long.
Voice acting ranges from cringeworthy to good and a lot of npcs arent voice acted (yet).

Ive played a couple more, nothing abysmal but i cant remember their names, and i havent played skyrim as much as a lot of the guys here, so im hardly an expert. But im kind of disappointed with the small amount of quest mods available for it.

 

[HiddenX]

Godwin's law must be re-written.

Nowadays every longer discussion ends with Skyrim comparisons...

 

[Lhynn]

Godwin's law must be re-written.

Nowadays every longer discussion ends with Skyrim comparisons...

not really, just roguey happens to be playing it i think, so it comes up.

 

[Sensuki]

Josh likes Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory Roguey ...

what are your thoughts on that game ?



pretty good fps too actually, required good tracking aim