Torment So is Tides of Numenera actually worth a damn?

[Daedalos]

Wasteland 2 was pretty decent.

Torment was very flawed, but it was enjoyable for the most part, if you can disregard some of the more annoying stuff.

 

[ilitarist]

Unlike Wasteland 2, ToN didn't look like an amateur project made by edgy teens.

 

[Blaine]

Unlike Wasteland 2, ToN didn't look like an amateur project made by edgy teens.

That's correct. It played and read like an amateur project made by edgy teens, but didn't look like one due to the presence of an exceptionally gifted art team.

While I'm here (it won't be for long), I should note that many of the Steam reviews for T:ToN claim that backers were "bait-and-switched" by the "change" from RTwP after "the pledges were locked in," which of course isn't true at all, since 1.) the decision hadn't even been made until the poll, so there was no change; and 2.) after turn-based was announced, backers were given the chance and plenty of time to refund their pledges if they desired.

It hardly matters at this point, but it's amusing what despicable, selfish liars people can be when they're in the throes of butthurt.

 

[ilitarist]

That's correct. It played and read like an amateur project made by edgy teens, but didn't look like one due to the presence of an exceptionally gifted art team.

It didn't have "Red Boots DLC LOL JK" thing in the main menu. And even though there was dumb stuff in Numenera later on it didn't greet you with toaster repair skill. It's not that I'm against fun things but that game greeted you with a long speech about fallen world and fallen friend and then vengeance and cynicism and coolness. Numenera is more consistent and sober than that.

 

[Blaine]

It didn't have "Red Boots DLC LOL JK" thing in the main menu. And even though there was dumb stuff in Numenera later on it didn't greet you with toaster repair skill. It's not that I'm against fun things but that game greeted you with a long speech about fallen world and fallen friend and then vengeance and cynicism and coolness. Numenera is more consistent and sober than that.

Toaster Repair was a skill in classic Wasteland, you unwashed Philistine. HEY, GUYS! WE'VE GOT SOMEONE WHO NEVER PLAYED WASTELAND OVER HERE! Off with his head!

 

[Cosmic Bane]

I guess it depends on what you like... The setting is relatively interesting and some gameplay mechanics are "innovative"...
But the game is filled to the brim with text and lacks action to the point that there are about 10 combat sequences in total and they are even kind of "skippable". When I say filled to the brim with text, I mean it. If you can't stand a lot of reading, there's no point in playing T:TON

Shit, another Shadowrun Hong Kong then. Why people create games for being read instead of played? I don't understand.

Why make a game when that costs money and shit? Just take a giant text dump on the screen and call it a day. Gone Home: extended version is a lot easier to make than some DnD RPG or equivalently complex knockoff.

 

[StaticSpine]

The RTwP vs. turn-based poll goes up. I vow to double my pledge if RT is chosen. It is, so I double my pledge to $1,000.

?

 

[Blaine]

The RTwP vs. turn-based poll goes up. I vow to double my pledge if RT is chosen. It is, so I double my pledge to $1,000.

?

Too much alphabet soup. I meant TB. RT, TB, PB, RTwP, FYIAD, IHNMAIMS....

A precious few development houses caught lightning in a bottle during the 1980s and 1990s, wrote some great dialogue, and made some great games.

Fifteen to thirty years later, after churning out mobile games or possibly working as fluffers in Hollywood since the turn of the century, they figured they could do the same thing, but better. After all, they're still the same people, but older and wiser, right? Unfortunately for us all, people don't live in a vacuum. They live in their times, they're surrounded by people of a particular generation, they're bombarded with new ideas and changing political and social fashions, they (in this particular case) are nearing the nadir of their careers rather than the apogee, and in general they're loaded down with baggage. I've lost count of the number of game developers, moviemakers, musicians, authors, and other creatives who completely lost their magic touch with the passage of years.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Let me tell you a sad little tale about Blaine and T:ToN.

• T:ToN is announced and pitched. A Torment successor, by Fargo's company? I pledged $500 on the spot.
• The RTwP vs. turn-based poll goes up. I vow to double my pledge if TB is chosen. It is, so I double my pledge to $1,000.
• The development team roster begins to emerge. I research many of them, and learn that some of them have a strong background in SJWing and hack not-really-game-development/fan fiction-tier "experience." Uh-oh.
• A bunch of them donate money to Anita Sarkeesian, and also to that scam artist running a gender-baiting Kickstarter to fund her 10-year-old daughter to "develop" a "game." No.
  
• Wasteland 2 is released. It's mediocre garbage. Oh no.
• The backer early alphas are released on Steam. Oh no, not like this. Please, not like this.
• The game is finally released. RIP

Time was, I considered Fargo to be a god among dweebs... now I try to never think about him or inXile at all.

I donated $27 to Bernie Sanders.

 

[Blaine]

I donated $27 to Bernie Sanders.

I feel better about myself already. Thanks dude, Merry Christmas.

 

[Lagole Gon]

So is Tides of Numenera actually worth a damn?

Nope.

The only truly good thing about this game is The Bloom. It's late game content, so don't bother.
Fun quests, many interact with each other. Some actually make an interesting use of the crisis system. Fairly significant Choices and Consequences(tm). I've never thought I would be so concerned about my relationship with a tentacled interdimensional space anus. Fun stuff.

 

[aweigh]

video games really need to learn the medium's interactive equivalent of "show, don't tell".

you know how in a movie, let's say a movie where a young son/daughter's parent is abusive, all the film-makers need to do to establish this is maybe one scene where the kid actor and the parent actor pass each other in the hall way and their acting and body language is all a good director needs to sell to the audience that something is off?

video games need to learn how to do this but in game terms. i'm really tired of massive text dumps, especially because video game writers are never good ones.

 

[Blaine]

video games really need to learn the medium's interactive equivalent of "show, don't tell".

Yes, that is an enormous issue which seems to have affected nearly all of the "I'm gonna recapture my glory days" Kickstarter celebrity developers.

 

[Tehdagah]

Videogames need to remove story.

 

[Delterius]

Videogames should just find the correct sort of genre for what story they want to tell. And implement mechanics that aid in that storytelling. The Spirit Meter from MotB cut about 10 billion words about the PC's supposed torment.

 

[Blaine]

Videogames should just find the correct sort of genre for what story they want to tell.

Correct genre for telling a story:

Behead all storyfags.

 

[Delterius]

Videogames should just find the correct sort of genre for what story they want to tell.

Correct genre for telling a story:

Fuck off with that shit, man. CRPGs are the perfect genre for telling the story of 8 adventurers who crawl dungeons. And so on. The true lesson is that much of the story should be told via mechanics, instead of prodigious use of glossaries and dialogue.

 

[Siveon]

Videogames should just find the correct sort of genre for what story they want to tell.

Correct genre for telling a story:

Fuck off with that shit, man. CRPGs are the perfect genre for telling the story of 8 adventurers who crawl dungeons. And so on. The true lesson is that much of the story should be told via mechanics, instead of prodigious use of glossaries and dialogue.

I agree with you on the fact that video games can tell stories in ways books and movies can't, by using the mechanics. However, this should be given a giant asterisk that states the way in which we portray these stories is fundamentally different, so different in fact, most people don't even consider it to be telling a story. It's just a fun game about dungeon crawling, about turn based combat, etc. So don't be surprised when you use the phrase "tell a story" and someone interprets that as text dumps by amateur writers who can't get into film or literature.

Speaking of which, this is why I wish more people stopped saying RPGs are about the story. I think this creates an expectation of a lot of developers that if they want to make a RPG, they need Bioware levels of dialogue, as well as a long playtime that rivals Wizardry 8. If they don't, oh no, now it's just a simple turn based strategy game.

Spoiler

okay I'll get off my high horse which was on top of the soapbox

 

[Blaine]

The developers (ideally, that is; a rare unicorn indeed these days) build a believable world that feels alive and as though it doesn't center around the player, they cultivate a certain atmosphere, they design mechanics that fit that world and atmosphere, and of course they do write the necessary dialogue and so on (if applicable). In that sense, yes, the mechanics should tell a story, and so should all the rest of it. The game mechanics can't be divorced from the whole, not in a fully-realized world. However, even someone who doesn't care about character arcs or the ending will still be impressed upon.

Some homoemperor paging through his Cliffs Notes and copy of Bulfinch's Mythology, trying to be the JRR fucking Tolkien of computer gaming by inserting esoteric nonsense from obscure languages and inventing compound words left and right... well, that's how we got Pillars of Eternity, complete with thesaurus vomit and mechanics that were designed as autism therapy rather than to actually fit a living, breathing world.

People understood the connection between a particular setting and the need for particular mechanics and trappings instinctively many years ago. I remember original, custom-tailored tabletop RPG gaming rules being officially released/invented for all sorts of fantasy novels and series. I have one in mind in particular right now, can't think of it off the top of my head.

 

[Delterius]

However, this should be given a giant asterisk that states the way in which we portray these stories is fundamentally different, so different in fact, most people don't even consider it to be telling a story. It's just a fun game about dungeon crawling, about turn based combat, etc. So don't be surprised when you use the phrase "tell a story" and someone interprets that as text dumps by amateur writers who can't get into film or literature.

And yet people here should know better. Even wargames had some pretending to be Rommel and Napoleon, issuing challenges across state lines. RPGs were much more personal and arose from cooperative storytelling. They are more akin to theater than books or film. A sort of interactivity to be cherished, not spurned by misguided iconoclasts. D&D, Storyteller and so on. They are all good for that.

Should someone ever figure out a more interesting way to convey 'social gameplay' in CRPGs than dialogue trees and skillchecks, that'll be a revolution and something to look forward to.

 

[fantadomat]

Videogames should just find the correct sort of genre for what story they want to tell.

Correct genre for telling a story:

Behead all storyfags.

Impale all the mechanicfags!

 

[One Stoned Bastard]

I'm all for adding "fags" as a suffix for everything, but the importance of the writing/story depends on the game. Nobody rages when Tekken has a shit story. For this game, the writing was important, as it was basically marketed as Planescape: Torment 2 (it's even there in its name).

 

[Kev Inkline]

If you don't want a story, why not play chess, it has better mechanics for sure? Because you want to experience character development? - That you can find in the gym.

 

[Jools]

I figured this is the best place to ask. So is it?

No.

Replay MOTB instead. Or wank. Or brew some craft beer. Or drink beer. Or get married, divorce, get depressed and drink cheap scotch. Become a Theramin virtuoso. Paint your house a-fresh and watch the coats dry. I don't think there is a numerical limit to the amount of activities that I can come up with, that are better than playing TToN.

 

[Cael]

I figured this is the best place to ask. So is it?

No.

Replay MOTB instead. Or wank. Or brew some craft beer. Or drink beer. Or get married, divorce, get depressed and drunk cheap scotch. Become a Theramin virtuoso. Paint your house a-fresh and watch the coats dry. I don't think there is a numerical limit to the amount of activities that I can come up with, that are better than playing TToN.

You missed out the all time classic, dude: Watching lint gather in your navel.