Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Ruhfuss]

I wasn't even aware that Secret allowed to join scrolls until maybe a year ago. One doesn't expect a newer game to lack sane features of the predecessor, so there's usually no comprehensible incentive to try out things in an older game if one's more familiar in the way of the "new shit". Hands up everyone who only found out by chance that joining scrolls actually works in some games...

On the other hand, I don't really miss that feature from Pools. I mainly use scrolls to learn spells, not to cast from them. Trading bundles around for learning in Secret was certainly less tedious than having to deal with individual scrolls. In Pools, the few level 8 and 9 spells can all easily be learned during training. Ranger/Magic-Users get all low level spells for free from the Ranger side, and can have a complete spell book well before reaching level 30.

In Pools, relying on scrolls isn't really feasible for "real" Magic-Users that aren't suffering from low level caps. Buffs last longer and most nukes deal more damage when casting from memory. Scroll bundles are somewhat available in form of wands for some type of spells, and, with a well built party, consumables are maybe only really worthwhile as an added option while taking on the bonus dungeon.
Chain of Conclusion: Pools -> high-level AD&D -> munchkinism galore + Gygaxian racism -> get more human dual-classed-to Magic-Users into your party!

 

[Ruhfuss]

It's really annoying how there's always some changes and bugs in items from game to game. A Wand of Ice Storm imported from Gateway to Treasures will work differently from a WoIS that is "native" to Treasures, for example.

Another good one:

Gauntlets of Ogre Power, which admittedly aren't even available in GSF, are treated as blunt magical +2 weapons in TSF, and only usable by warriors and thieves.

 

[Jo498]

What happens to the scroll bundles if one tries to import them from secrets?

you are right that scrolls are not so important if one has several high level casters. It's more that one has never enough inventory space anyway and having about 10 or more slots (all over the party, the clerical restoration scrolls are somewhat important until the cleric is high enough) taken up with scrolls when this could be one or two slots with bundles is annoying. It is also really strange that bundling worked in Secrets and also works in the Mac and Amiga versions of Pools (as far as I recall them) and does not in PC Pools.

 

[octavius]

The scrolls could be joined even in the Amiga version of Curse. It was a rude shock for me when the DOS version was different.

 

[Jaesun]

Going to try yet again a Gateway to the Savage Frontier and Treasures of the Savage Frontier run through. Seriously, I just need to stick with it and finally finish this fucking series for once...

Human Paladin (female, so I can romance the dude... ) - Jaesun
Human Cleric - BLOBERT
Human Mage - BEE
Dwarven Fight/Thief - Cloaked Figure
Human Fighter 7/Mage - Octavius
Human Fighter 7/Cleric - Sceptic

The Gold Box games I have are from the Wizworks CD's I bought a while back, I'd *assume* all the games are patched to the latest version?

And I have this really bad feeling when it is time to finally multi-class the mage and cleric, THAT is going to happen at a fucking terrible time and will be very painful (probably late game)... ugh.

 

[Jaesun]

Do flasks of oil do anything? I.E. kill trolls, or stop them from regenerating?

 

[madrigal]

Do flasks of oil do anything? I.E. kill trolls, or stop them from regenerating?

Not satisfied with the answer you got last time you asked?

 

[Null Null]

Do flasks of oil do anything? I.E. kill trolls, or stop them from regenerating?

They mostly seem to be a substitute for staff slings as a clerical missile weapon in games that don't have them (ie Pool of Radiance or Curse of the Azure Bonds).

BTW, you may enjoy this: the 'purple headdress' icon in Gateway turns into a 'bearded guy' in Treasures, as I discovered when I transferred my (female) pure human mage.

Also, weren't you the one who hex-edited his character's gender byte so he could do the gay romance thing, 12 years before Temple of Elemental Evil came out?

 

[Null Null]

Too bad the Ring of Lightning Immunity doesn't work in the DOS version, though.

Just did a quick check.

• entered combat, readied unequipped Ring of Electrical Immunity on PC, cast Lightning Bolt on respective PC
• entered combat with already equipped Ring of Electrical Immunity on PC, cast serveral Lightning Bolts on respective PC

The Lightning Bolts did no damage. Couldn't find a helpful Blue Dragon or other lightning breather for further investigation, though.

Game version is 1.10 for DOS.

Back when I was fooling around with immunities for FRUA there were a few cases where dragon breath didn't function the way other elementals of the same type did; i.e., the 'immune to poison' special for monsters conferred immunity to poison spells, but not to dragon poison breath. It's possible they screwed this up.

Best way to meet a Blue Dragon is to go poking around the Aerie in the wilderness if you haven't killed Thorne yet, eventually blues will show up.

 

[Jo498]

It actually makes sense that "immune to poison" does not cover the green dragon's breath. poison as spell or from spiders etc. kills immediately whereas poison breath is area damage. It's called poison breath but it works very differently from poison sting/spell.

If it's the one I am thinking of, I always use the purple headdress for a "ninja" like fighter/mage/thief or similar character. The color is not ideal but I use some combination of black/purple/red for the rest of the guy, so it looks o.k.

 

[Jaesun]

Also, weren't you the one who hex-edited his character's gender byte so he could do the gay romance thing, 12 years before Temple of Elemental Evil came out?

No, not that I recall.

 

[kmonster]

And I have this really bad feeling when it is time to finally multi-class the mage and cleric, THAT is going to happen at a fucking terrible time and will be very painful (probably late game)... ugh.

I'm quite sure your feeling will prove right. Dualing will start near the end of the first game and even if you grind like hell you won't be able to finish it because cleric and mage are capped at level 6 there.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah, I may not be able to pull it off heh. ugh. Oh well guess I will find out. Also having only ONE cleric is already painful... (I always like having two).

 

[Ruhfuss]

And I have this really bad feeling when it is time to finally multi-class the mage and cleric, THAT is going to happen at a fucking terrible time and will be very painful (probably late game)... ugh.

I'm quite sure your feeling will prove right. Dualing will start near the end of the first game and even if you grind like hell you won't be able to finish it because cleric and mage are capped at level 6 there.

Yeah, I may not be able to pull it off heh. ugh. Oh well guess I will find out. Also having only ONE cleric is already painful... (I always like having two).

Why even bother starting out with a Cleric and Magic-User at all? Planning to dual FROM a spellcaster type in GSF seems like a terrible idea.

If your goal is just to beat TSF (so not continuing with Pools) and you don't mind turning your gameplay into a "Buck Rogers meets the Forgotten Realms" style, I seriously wouldn't bother with low-powered casters.

Some points to consider:

• Clerics only have access to Cure Light Wounds in GSF
  
• Paladins are better warriors, can also heal and make better dual-classing material starting at level 7
  • although beware, healing with Paladins is more tedious - FIX doesn't work
  • no access to Hold Person makes really beating the end boss harder
• GSF has many "big" opponents (as in size class: large), which Rangers are great against, even with ranged weapons
• warrior-types are much easier to equip in GSF
• and can use all kinds of bows for 2/1 attacks right from the start
  
• IMHO best / only really worthwhile multiclass: Elf Magic-User/Thief
  • has the same level caps in TSF as a human if INT is 18
  • can at least wear SOME armor while in GSF
    
  • is good with a short bow right away
• the game offers consumables for the few tight spots where a Magic-User might have been usefull

Seriously, I was surprised how well my playthrough of GSF went with an all-warrior-party. But if one can't stand the BR:CtD combat style or likes to have a more fitting party for role playing reasons, things are different.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah the Ranger is definitely a class addition that is very well suited for Gateway, because of all the beasts. Even the clue book recommends one. The Thief/Magic-User is actually quite interesting, EXCEPT for that fucking shitty low HP. Fuck that is awful. But the added mage firepower is very welcome....

I wonder if possibly a Ranger 3 (or 4) then Magic User might be an interesting multi-class for this as well?

 

[Jo498]

Dualing does not make a lot of sense in Gateway. It does make some sense at the beginning of Treasures because within this game a human fighter/mage or ranger/mage will become better than an elven multiclass fighter/mage, IIRC. (I played this game only once, so I don't quite remember if it is really better to dual or painful at the beginning but worth for a more powerful endgame party.)

Unless one wants to build up special parties, dualing makes only sense in Secret and Pools because in these games the multiclass characters will reach their caps and only advance as thieves (or not at all) so a party with one ore more duals will be considerably more powerful in the later stages of the game. (Nevertheless they are both playable without duals although in Pools the endgame will be very tough)

But more importantly, dualing should be done after certain important stages of the first class have been reached. E.g. the 2nd attack every other round for fighter classes (or for Pools maybe the 2nd attack each round) or a lot of HP accumulated to avoid low HP mages or thieves. Or if one wants a cleric/mage one should think which spells the cleric should have to act as main (or support) cleric of the party. I'd say at least cure poison. So below lvl 7 or 8 it does not make sense to switch the class. If one wants a support cleric with more cure light wounds and hold person in PoR or Gateway one can use a half-elf multiclass char.

 

[Ruhfuss]

I wonder if possibly a Ranger 3 (or 4) then Magic User might be an interesting multi-class for this as well?

I'm unsure if casting while wearing armor works if the Ranger changes class before he gets his class-innate magic-user spellcasting ability.

 

[kmonster]

Ranger dualed to mage early works ok but it will be totally overshadowed by a fighter/mage multiclass who gets mage spells from the beginning, still reaches the highest possible mage levels during the games, has better thac0 and gets an extra half attack per round at fighter level 7.

Rangers aren't great in Gateway, fighters and paladins get an extra half attack per round at level 7 and are capped at level 8 while rangers are capped at level 7 so they can't reach level 8 required to get an extra half attack. They fit only for the role as archer since bows always grant 2 attacks per round.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Just had a moment of wonderful nostalgia thinking about my first RPG - Pool of Radiance back in 1988, and those awesome resting restrictions. IIRC, that entire first area had just a tiny room that you had to hold up in because it was the only place you could rest and gain health/recharge spells. They sure don't make games like that today, at least not casually. I think when I played the NWN module for POR you could rest anywhere. Booooo! he cried from the back of the auditorium.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Well you can rest anywhere in PoR - just that if you're in slums and not in that room, you're constantly interrupted by wandering monsters until you've killed them all.

 

[Jaesun]

Just had a moment of wonderful nostalgia thinking about my first RPG - Pool of Radiance back in 1988, and those awesome resting restrictions. IIRC, that entire first area had just a tiny room that you had to hold up in because it was the only place you could rest and gain health/recharge spells. They sure don't make games like that today, at least not casually. I think when I played the NWN module for POR you could rest anywhere. Booooo! he cried from the back of the auditorium.

You should play some of the Realm Series FRUA modules. Very well done rest restrictions in most of those modules.

 

[Jo498]

Rangers aren't great in Gateway, fighters and paladins get an extra half attack per round at level 7 and are capped at level 8 while rangers are capped at level 7 so they can't reach level 8 required to get an extra half attack. They fit only for the role as archer since bows always grant 2 attacks per round.

Yes, this is another sucky bit about that game that has often been nominated as the worst of all Goldbox ones. But do rangers get any bow bonus in those games? I thought only elves had a (slight) bonus. I'd still get a ranger in this game both for fighting giants and to have one for Treasures.

In a properly designed game building up dual class characters should be very hard because the party has for some time to make do with a much weaker character who cannot really pull his weight. Overall I think of them as a design flaw of those games (because of the FR games race restrictions) that should only be exploited for special purposes or maybe for PoD...

 

[Ruhfuss]

Pool of Radiance back in 1988, and those awesome resting restrictions. IIRC, that entire first area had just a tiny room that you had to hold up in because it was the only place you could rest and gain health/recharge spells. They sure don't make games like that today, at least not casually.

While it's certainly not a game of today, Pools of Darkness offers many maps where the player has to find a safe place to rest, and may not even try to rest anywhere else(*). They explicitly removed the REST and FIX options from the camping menu in those areas. In other environments, the old mechanics of try-to-rest-but-may-be-interrupted are used.

I remember sweating my skin off when I was new to the game, and didn't know where to look for a safe spot to rest after having suffered enough attrition damage by say numbers of Drow or Rakshasa, and running low on both offensive and healing magic.

(*) E. g. the starting town. Either a nice way of letting the player familiarize with a new feature, or a counter measure to reduce the cost of all the city guards having to scout for and reprimand loiterers.

Ranger dualed to mage early works ok but it will be totally overshadowed by a fighter/mage multiclass who gets mage spells from the beginning, still reaches the highest possible mage levels during the games, has better thac0 and gets an extra half attack per round at fighter level 7.

Rangers aren't great in Gateway, fighters and paladins get an extra half attack per round at level 7 and are capped at level 8 while rangers are capped at level 7 so they can't reach level 8 required to get an extra half attack. They fit only for the role as archer since bows always grant 2 attacks per round.

I guess it's a balancing issue that in GSF, Rangers cap at level 7, while Fighters and Paladins may advance up to level 8. Paladin(8) needs almost twice as much XP as Ranger(7). Further explanation please see below.

From a powergamer perspective, a Ranger(9)/[whatever] dual-class beats any comparable multi-class option I can think of for TSF.

• better base THAC0 + potential for natural STR18(00)
• better HP
  • also nice to have for the transitional period until the second class level exceeds the first one
• faster progression for the second class / no XP wasted on maxed out class(es)
  
• can cast while wearing armor if second class is Magic-User

And yes, I tend to favor increased long-term potential in regard to a more challenging game (TSF) over a short-term advantage in a comparatively easy game (GSF).

Yes, this is another sucky bit about that game that has often been nominated as the worst of all Goldbox ones. But do rangers get any bow bonus in those games? I thought only elves had a (slight) bonus. I'd still get a ranger in this game both for fighting giants and to have one for Treasures.

Rangers don't get any bonuses (that I know of) when using bows, but their general bonus vs. creatures of size 2+ (e. g. Trolls) in GSF also applies to ranged weapon damage. Which really makes a difference. If Rangers were also allowed to reach level 8 in GSF to obtain 3/2 attacks in meele, they would somewhat overshadow the other warrior classes.

Elves get a +1 bonus to THAC0 when using swords (like having STR 18(00) for THAC0, but still only 18(75) for damage) or bows (plus maybe another +1 if DEX 19). So the +2 bonus to THAC0 that warriors get on reaching level 9 offsets any racial bonuses that an elven Fighter(7)/[whatever] might have until then.

All things considered, in regard to TSF, the only attractive multi-class options from a powergamer perspective are Elf Magic-User/Thief or Dwarf Fighter/Thief.

On the other hand, my last playthrough of TSF was with a party consisting only of demi-humans, with the exception of a Human Paladin(5)/Cleric. Certainly enjoyable. But total crap for journeying on in Pools of Darkness.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Just had a moment of wonderful nostalgia thinking about my first RPG - Pool of Radiance back in 1988, and those awesome resting restrictions. IIRC, that entire first area had just a tiny room that you had to hold up in because it was the only place you could rest and gain health/recharge spells. They sure don't make games like that today, at least not casually. I think when I played the NWN module for POR you could rest anywhere. Booooo! he cried from the back of the auditorium.

You should play some of the Realm Series FRUA modules. Very well done rest restrictions in most of those modules.

I have many of them on my hard drive, including most of Ray's modules. I really should start playing some, but... the thought of mapping really arses me (as the brits like to say). Maybe a good mapping utility could do the trick.

 

[Jaesun]

Just had a moment of wonderful nostalgia thinking about my first RPG - Pool of Radiance back in 1988, and those awesome resting restrictions. IIRC, that entire first area had just a tiny room that you had to hold up in because it was the only place you could rest and gain health/recharge spells. They sure don't make games like that today, at least not casually. I think when I played the NWN module for POR you could rest anywhere. Booooo! he cried from the back of the auditorium.

You should play some of the Realm Series FRUA modules. Very well done rest restrictions in most of those modules.

I have many of them on my hard drive, including most of Ray's modules. I really should start playing some, but... the thought of mapping really arses me (as the brits like to say). Maybe a good mapping utility could do the trick.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...best-tool-for-drawing-classic-rpg-maps.92853/