From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Achilles]

Console is definitely the way to play these games

Bullcrap. PC or nothing.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Haven't really watched it, but damn

I guess now we know why he's been MIA. I also just found out he deleted all of his previous videos

Well that video was deleted too so who was that and what happened?

 

[Black Angel]

Well that video was deleted too so who was that and what happened?

Well, shit, I hope nothing bad happened to him. It's MisterCaption's video on Dark Souls, you know, the guy who made 3-hours to 4-hours long ass video critique on Bethesda's Fallouts, and iirc also Skyrim.

 

[Arnust]

Well that video was deleted too so who was that and what happened?

Well, shit, I hope nothing bad happened to him. It's MisterCaption's video on Dark Souls, you know, the guy who made 3-hours to 4-hours long ass video critique on Bethesda's Fallouts, and irc also Skyrim.

Probably the same shit as last time. Must've been listening a bit too much to responses and they got to him, despite the history of a mix of him being very sensible and those causing it being very abrasive. He'll probably do the same thing in like six months or something.

 

[aweigh]

Souls Games Are Great, Except For The Sexist Messages From Some Players

Ario Elami
Today 5:15pm
Filed to: DARK SOULS

3745

From Dark Souls 2: Message left next to a Milfanito.
Since the release of FromSoftware’s Demon’s Souls in 2009, it and its spiritual successors—the Dark Souls trilogy and Bloodborne—have acquired reputations that are both built on the games themselves and players’ responses to them. Demon’s Souls and its descendants are as dependent upon their mechanics, level design, and art direction for effect as they are upon narrative obfuscation, and audiences have happily engaged this by spending years picking at details to assemble interpretive webs. These are lushly mysterious worlds that people, including me, want to emotionally invest in. And yet, time and again, that mysteriousness has been degraded by player messages being used for sexist ends.

When Demon’s Souls came out, it had several interesting ideas about how to utilize online interactivity. One of these was its messaging system. Any player could choose from a small bank of words and phrases to construct sentences, represented visually as a strip of glowing runes on the ground. The game was largely played solo, but messages made by one player could be seen by others, who had the option to rate a given message and give its author a health boost.



Messages could be used to mislead inexperienced players by, for example, placing a vague “If you jump down from here...” beside a lethal drop. Their main intent was to make the game easier by way of publicized tips. If upcoming terrain were dangerous, then you might see “Beware of the floor ahead.” “Sniper’s perch” might alert less experienced players to a good location for long-range attacks. Or a well-placed “If you use the lever, you can proceed” could draw your attention to a mechanism.

From Dark Souls 2: Message left next to Chloanne.
Humans being humans, a bit of crudeness crept in, aided by some of Demon’s Souls linguistic ambiguities, such as the unassuming noun of “Head.” Give people a blank wall and spraypaint and someone will eventually draw genitalia. Crucial to this metaphor is the fact that such anatomical graffiti, at least in openly public spaces, is nearly always of a penis. In one sense, it is a juvenile joke; in another and more serious sense, it is a territorial, gendered assertion of power. Such has been the evolutionary trend of the grosser Soulsbornemessages, with an important distinction: their targets.

As Demon’s Souls’ messaging system became a trope, utilized by the Dark Soulstrilogy and Bloodborne, so too did its hub, which is always inhabited by a significant female character. For Demon’s Souls, it is the Nexus and Maiden in Black; for Dark Souls and Dark Souls 3, Firelink Shrine and Fire Keeper; for Dark Souls 2, Majula and Emerald Herald; and the Hunter’s Dream and Doll for Bloodborne. Each of these has come to bear the brunt of sexist messages, with other female characters sharing most of the rest.

Things weren’t too bad at the earliest stages. In Demon’s Souls, spots where the Maiden in Black might be standing or sitting were indeed complemented by messages, but the tone was more often romanticizing—“You’ll find true love ahead”—than outright sexualizing. From area to area, there appeared to be a general willingness to roleplay along with the game’s bleak atmosphere. Messages left near the Maiden Astraea, a saint who cared for the deformed and sickly—and who also served as a fairly harmless boss whom the player was nonetheless required to kill—tended to be things like “My heart’s breaking...” rather than anything crass. In fact, over the past near-decade, Demon’s Souls’ messages tended to be fine, maybe owing to unexplored differences in playerbases or the plainer designs for most of the women. The most sexually suggestive message devisable may have been “Sticky White Stuff,” a badly localized name for a magic-infusing item.

a list of censored words for character names in Dark Souls 2’s PC release, but the list was poorly compiled. For example: no one uses “bisexual” as an insult, the idea of censoring “lucifer” is bizarrely outdated, “beastiality” isn’t even spelled right, and the banning of “hole” conflicts with its inclusion in the messages’ word bank. Moreover, it only drew attention to slurs and expletives within otherwise decent words or names. For example, the common title of “knight” would show up as “k***ht” because it contains “nig”; or, if your title were “holy”, the censoring of “ho” would make it into “**ly.”

With Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3, players were finally able to downvote messages, and such messages would then be less likely to appear for other players. What motivated this option’s introduction, however, is unknown. If it was an indirect way of addressing sexist and asinine messages, it was naive, as these messages tend to be among the higher-rated ones around. Democracy, in this form, hasn’t had a positive effect.

From Bloodborne: Message beside the throne of Analise, Queen of the Vilebloods (her remains seen here after her murder by Alfred).
Anyone who has played these games will know that the majority of players’ messages don’t fit into the discussed paradigm. They mostly preempt hurdles, proclaim victories, encourage curiosity, and craft humorous, mimetic mini-narratives. Yet the sexist messages’ exceptional nature arguably heightens their presence. Once you can guess what a bunch of messages around a woman are bound to be, it colors your perception of that space. Coming back to a hub after some spelunking is not just a return to relative security, but can be a reminder of the cultural toxicity bubbling beneath the games’ surfaces. YouTube user Jameserton’s video, “HAPPY SOULS”, has accrued nearly 17 million views since 2016, and, as good-natured as it is, even it contextualizes the sight of the Emerald Herald encompassed by “Try thrusting” and “ambush behind.”

The general response has been to either tolerate or embrace these messages as a dependable cultural signifier, like a thing that just came with the territory. In one Reddit thread about celebrating player messages, a rare dissenter who clumsily says they’ve tired of the sleaze is called a “salty kid who needs to git gud” and is told to “lighten the fuck up.” In another thread elsewhere, a person who specifically voices their disgust for the sexist messages is replied to with, “You’ve always been able to play offline.” But just because you’ve averted your eyes doesn’t mean the thing has disappeared. Willful ignorance is not a solution.

Ultimately, it is unclear if FromSoftware is aware of the issue. Through a rep for the game publisher Bandai Namco, which published most of the Soulsbourne games, they declined to comment for this article. They did at least refrain from including the term “Sticky White Stuff” in the games since Demon’s Souls. The item’s equivalent didn’t reappear until Dark Souls 2 as “Aromatic Ooze,” and this term was absent from the word bank.

When Demon’s Souls’ servers shut down this year on February 28 and, later, the upcoming Sengoku-themed Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice was revealed to have no online component, both carried a sting for many people. It is disappointing for those who view FromSoftware’s modern output as inseparable from the multiplayer elements. For myself, though, I couldn’t help but feel a sense of relief.

Ario Elami is an artist, writer, composer, and architectural enthusiast who lives in Boston.

lul

 

[Average Manatee]

With Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3, players were finally able to downvote messages, and such messages would then be less likely to appear for other players. What motivated this option’s introduction, however, is unknown. If it was an indirect way of addressing sexist and asinine messages, it was naive, as these messages tend to be among the higher-rated ones around.

I'm like 90% certain that there is no such thing, both positive and negative ratings contribute to making messages seen.

Thank feminists for all of the "try tongue but hole" messages I find?

Spoiler

jk everyone knows feminists can't play games

 

[DemonKing]

Console is definitely the way to play these games

Bullcrap. PC or nothing.

I'm with you 100% with regards to FPS, strategy and isometric CRPGs but what are the benefits of the PC for this title over a console? The graphics aren't going to improve much (unless they added a lot more options to the PC remaster than they did to the Prepare to Die version) and mouse and keyboard is not really the optimal way to control your avatar in these kind of games for most people.

I find these kind of games work really well sitting on the couch with a controller in hand...

 

[Average Manatee]

Stable 60 FPS is a good enough reason. Seriously look at this shit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha6K5KtW3W8

Yes the remaster fixes it, but DS2 and 3 are still not as good as on a PC and you shouldn't need to wait 7 years + buy the game again along with a whole new system to play it properly.

Mouse and keyboard works fine in DS2/3. I'd say superior due to far better camera control but it's certainly up to taste. Haven't tested the Remaster but I assume they work fine there. DS1 w/ DSfix was still kind of fucky.

 

[aweigh]

what are the benefits of the PC for this title over a console

Mods:



Graphics (and graphical mods):

In the case of Dark Souls 1 the game with texture mods actually looks 100x better than the Remaster! (Most also say the un-modded version already looks better than the Remaster due to the changed lighting).


And needless to say: 60fps gameplay instead of the console 30fps.

 

[aweigh]

Also:

- The mouse keyboard thing is retarded: you can plug in the same controllers you use on console.

- The couch thing is retarded: you can plug your PC into your living room TV, and guess what? Then you sit your fat fucking ass down in your couch and play with the same wireless controller you use on your console.

I will never understand people who somehow don't understand that the hdmi cable that goes out of their PC is the exact same cable as in their console, that both things can plug into TV.

In fact most LCDs actually say they are PC compatible on the box!!! But retards gonna retard.

BTW, I used a tv dinner tray table on wheels as my mousing and keyboard surface for years as I gamed on my living room PC:

(Not exactly like this one but similar enough for you to get the idea)

Thing costs like 40-50 bucks at any place that sells fucking things like this, I got mine at costco. it slides around on wheels and you put your wireless mouse and keyboard on it!

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! ZOMG SUCH INCREDIBLE TECHNOLOGY

 

[DemonKing]

I don't have time to play the vanilla version of most games I play, let alone mod them as well (unless absolutely essential like DSfix for the original PC DS), but of course if you're into mods PC is absolutely the way to go.

Maybe I'm in the minority but sitting on the couch with a mouse and keyboard in front of me like the setup above is a bit awkward for my taste - whereas with a controller I can slump my fat ass down and lean back.

I went 46 years until I bought a console so I've been in the PC Master Race camp for a long time, but there are some games that IMO do work well on console.

 

[aweigh]

but you can use the same controller

i just don't understand people.

 

[Black Angel]

Alright, folks, MisterCaption re-uploaded the video, so here it is.

Probably the same shit as last time. Must've been listening a bit too much to responses and they got to him, despite the history of a mix of him being very sensible and those causing it being very abrasive. He'll probably do the same thing in like six months or something.

Apparently there were some issues with the previous upload. Some said it's because he wanted the comments to be more focused on the content of the video instead of congratulating him for returning, but more likely the cause is that there were some audio issues. I didn't really know what kind of audio issues, but I've watched the video. He seems kind of repeating himself many, many times throughout the video, repeating exact same words and exact same points, probably because it's been a long time since he made a video.

But it's interesting to find that he's discussing the games from a new perspective that I haven't encountered before, albeit it's funny to listen that he's saying the words 'interaction' in relation to the gameplay, when a while back some dumbfuck journo (John Walker, or something) were trying to get rid of the word 'gameplay' and, instead, wanted to replace it with word 'interaction', except MisterCaption here articulated his elaboration and reasoning much, much better.

 

[No Great Name]

Made good progress today. Made it through Sen's Fortress and managed not to fall for the majority of traps by generally being cautious and being aware of little hints around the area. I really like that kind of design. The first time I fought the Iron Giant boss, his axe swing pushed me off the arena to me death, and the second time I fought him, he ended up jumping off to his own death. A bit strange and I was left confused but a win is a win. I also found Ricard's Rapier in there that I went back and upgraded to the same level as my Scimitar, so the plan is to use the Scimitar on bosses and big enemies since it does more damage with each hit while I use the Rapier on enemies I can backstab and parry.

Got my ass kicked multiple times by the first enemy I came across in Anor Londo but I found the way to the bonfire. After a bit of exploring, I found myself inside of a large cathedral filled with the painting guardian guys and discovered that the Peculiar Doll I picked up a while ago was the key to the giant painting in the back. I accidently found myself inside the Painted World which was full of both interesting enemies (like the crow things and the phalanx knockoffs) as well as some really annoying ones (like the dudes the inflict you with toxin if they die while you're near and the bonewheel skeletons). I actually got stuck here for a while because I missed the lever in the underground chamber full of the bonewheel skeletons that opened up the door to the boss, but I eventually found it as well as Velka's Rapier. I'm not sure which rapier will be better, but I'll figure that out next time. I ended fighting Priscilla in the end because I was curious what the fight would be like. It was actually pretty interesting how I had to follow the footsteps in the snow in order to pinpoint her location, but was otherwise fairly easy to deal with.

I'll continue exploring Anor Londo some more tomorrow most likely.

 

[toro]

On the other hand, I just don't think all these frustrating boss fights are how gaming is meant to be enjoyed. There is a difference between reasonable challenge and masochism.

It's not masochism if you learn to master the combat. The game is pretty fair.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

The only part I found unfair was Bed of Chaos and New Londo (just New Londo; Four Kings is ok). Which are horseshit. The rest of the game is fine.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

On the other hand, I just don't think all these frustrating boss fights are how gaming is meant to be enjoyed. There is a difference between reasonable challenge and masochism.

It's not masochism if you learn to master the combat. The game is pretty fair.

It has to do with how you master combat. In Soulbourne, it seems to be done by dying, unless you use one of the easier builds (hide behind shield and learn the enemy). Otherwise, just die a bunch of times and learn their attack patterns, so you know how to counter them with parries/dodging.

Look, that's ok, but I am just saying, in my ideal combat system/game, it would be done differently. More through learning general concepts, and then being able to apply them to any particular situation. But I am also thinking of a more historical type combat, not something with bosses/fantasy stuff, so whatever.

No Great Name Velka's Rapier is more for magic types, since it scales with Int and Faith, if I recall correctly. Ricard's Rapier is for Dexterity builds. It has A level scaling at +14 and +15. Plus, in terms of looks, Ricard's Rapier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Velka's.

Also, what's wrong with you fighting Priscilla? She is so nice.



Meanwhile, I tried out Dark Souls 2, and can wholeheartedly agree, it's utter decline. The parrying system in it alone makes me rage. Parrying in DS1 was sometimes kinda annoying for someone without great reflexes, but overall, it definitely worked. In DS2, weapons have different windup speeds, before the parry window even starts, so somehow, you are supposed to anticipate when the enemy's strike will hit you and match it up in your head with when your weapon's parry window starts, and parry in the expectation of that. Pure retardation. Don't think I will be playing this.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Even I, who sucked hard at Dark Souls my first time through (trust me, harder than you Porky), found it manageable to stay out of bosses' reach and observe their movesets without dying against all but the most aggressive bosses. It's when I started looking for opportunities to attack that things got hairy. I consider that good design.

 

[toro]

Meanwhile, I tried out Dark Souls 2, and can wholeheartedly agree, it's utter decline. The parrying system in it alone makes me rage. Parrying in DS1 was sometimes kinda annoying for someone without great reflexes, but overall, it definitely worked. In DS2, weapons have different windup speeds, before the parry window even starts, so somehow, you are supposed to anticipate when the enemy's strike will hit you and match it up in your head with when your weapon's parry window starts, and parry in the expectation of that. Pure retardation. Don't think I will be playing this.

Now you are just talking shit. I've played all three games + DLCs without parrying except in PvP. DaS2 is the most mechanically sound game from the franchise.

Fuck off with your pure retardation shit. Don't let Majula hit your ass on your way out.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I say parrying is retarded. You say you don't parry. Then, you tell me I am talking nonsense. Ok...

 

[Arnust]

Lmao, yeah, DS2 parrying doesn't feel hat good because it's not completely fucking broken and takes more than basic reflexes. And same shit for the backstabs. But in the other hand, you can find the weapon/shield you want to parry with as they all classes have slightly different parrying frames, and a succesful parry is way stronger and more satisfactory. No more do you only have like two animations total for both parries and backstabs that aren't esentially the same (pop-pop-hit and transversal stab, dassit) but a lot more, and the Leo ring is accesible way earlier in this game, if you want to base your playstyle around that. Plus, you can actually see your "crit" multiplier now.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I say parrying is retarded. You say you don't parry. Then, you tell me I am talking nonsense. Ok...

I never parried in DS2, even though I did it a lot in 1. As you say, it doesn't feel right. If you can deal with that option being taken away from you, 2 is definitely worth playing, however.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I dunno, maybe if I play as a sorcerer... Parry is the only interesting melee option in DS games, because rolling against humanoids is kinda retarded, and hiding behind a shield is pointless.

 

[Arnust]

The sheer... weirdness of that statement aside, you'll be glad to hear that spellcasters are the best as they'll ever get in a Fromsoft game in 2, at least.

 

[Average Manatee]

Parry is an absolutely awful, degenerate mechanic that has no place in a game like Dark Souls.

Dark Souls 2 has the worst magic in the series.