Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Zorba the Hutt]

I bought KOTC but now feel bad that I didn't make it a 'million seller'

 

[Excidium II]

I bought KOTC but now feel bad that I didn't make it a 'million seller'

Maybe you should have bought 999,999 more copies. Then we'd be swimming in D&D games.

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah keep putting the public faces of game developers on a pedestal.

D:OS 2's shaping up to be a fine compromise between mass market appeal and the classic RPG experience. Going to sell a million units, maybe more (unless the fatigue is real, gosh I hope not).

Can only hope it's fun for more than the first session. DOS got uninstalled fast when the novelty of the crafting/magic combos was exhausted. The game content was p. mediocre.

 

[CryptRat]

How could it possibly sell that well when the developer won't put it on Steam? No game will ever sell a million copies if the only way to purchase it is off some Web 1.0 Geocities backwater site that belongs in the 90s. Old school CRPG gameplay is well and good, but your distribution platform should at least keep up with the times if you want to have any sort of credibility. Cleve had the right idea to take advantage of Steam's Greenlit while it still exists; KotC should do the same.

On a serious note, I like when there's such an option to give all the money to the developper. You're still right of course.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Seems that the vast majority of butthurt posters in these 16 pages didn't even have the patience to watch the video and understand what Tim was saying.

Even a description of a talk is too painful to read. I am still in a denial phase. Do you want to kill us?
It is like asking why you have not watched video tape in which your girlfriend is cheating on you.

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

On a serious note, I like when there's such an option to give all the money to the developper. You're still right of course.

Yeah, I think Valve takes like 30% commission. But isn't it better to sell like 10k copies on Steam and lose 30% of that, then to sell only 1000 copies on some Geocities site and keep 100%? The Steam option means a lot more money is going to the dev overall, so its definitely worth it.

10k sales might not seem like much, but for the sort of game KotC is with its shoestring budget it would be respectable; something like 100k sales for a game like that would be exceptionally well; 1 million sales for a game like that is just out of the question even in the best of circumstances. Excidium is absolutely correct that this is a niche genre, and no one who makes these games does it with the expectation of getting rich. But I do believe it is possible to make enough money developing games in this genre to earn a living off it, but you aren't going to become a millionaire from it.

 

[Lurker King]

Which is why I said: Codex claims over and over that Skyrim and Dragon Age: Origins are trash, yet those games are trash that they buy.

They buy these games on release, at full price. They cost three times more than proper games such as "Underrail", "Battle Brothers" or "Age of Decadence". What is worse, they even rate some of these popamoles higher, e.g., TW3 winning the first place here. And it is not just triple-A popamole either. The same phenomenon happens to these new popamole isometric games (PoE, Tyranny, etc.). A bunch of people here who love to bash Obsidian games in public bought Tyranny on release with a ridiculous price tag.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Dude it doesn't matter who buys what. It's a niche genre. Nobody with the ability/genuine interest to make proper CRPGs will do it based on potential sales figures.

Even if someone does it because of love, he still would like, at the very least, get his budget back and earn money for a few extra pizzas.

 

[Lurker King]

D:OS 2's shaping up to be a fine compromise between mass market appeal and the classic RPG experience.

There is no such thing.

 

[Excidium II]

TW3 winning the first place here.

FAKE NEWS

1st underrail
2nd aod
3rd twitch3r

 

[luj1]

RPG elements like levels/talents/skill advancement/whatever are nowadays being inserted in almost any genre, most notably shooters, action games and adventures.

Is that beneficial? And for whom? What are the reasons? That is the mil. $ question. It obviously works well for companies.

Such features are nerdy and prestigious, leading to lowly casuals feeling better about themselves, in a "oh look, im playing a RPG, I'm so cool and prestigious" type of way, when he is only playing a watered-down hybrid. Hybridizing anything with RPG elements seems to increase the gameplay value somewhat, and can even increase sales by calling it a "RPG" or adding some phrases like "open-world" etc.

In this thread Bioshock (shooter) and Dark souls (third-person action) were mentioned as biggest successes but we have to remember SystemShock (was it an RPG really?) and No one lives Forever 2 too.

It seems this combo works well for developers, as they think they can keep everyone happy - hard core RPG players by calling it a "RPG" and raising the gameplay value slightly for casuals. However, is such genre-blending a beneficial practice for the industry in the long run?

 

[Roguey]

FAKE NEWS

1st underrail
2nd aod
3rd twitch3r

 

[Excidium II]

FAKE NEWS

1st underrail
2nd aod
3rd twitch3r

aah right

 

[Excidium II]

RPG elements like levels/talents/skill advancement/whatever are nowadays being inserted in almost any genre, most notably shooters, action games and adventures.

What are the reasons? That is the $mil. question.

Such features are nerdy and prestigious, making a filthy no-brain casual feel better about himself, in a "oh look, im playing a RPG, I'm so cool and prestigious" when he is only playing a watered-down hybrid. Hybridizing anything with RPG elements seems beneficial for gameplay and can even increase sales.

what the fuck lmao.

It has more to do with the well documented effect of progression elements. Unlocking content, raising numbers, etc engage people.

Idk how to shove in your heads that practically nobody gives a fuck about CRPGs.

 

[Rivmusique]

Overreaction to the triangle thing here. You assign attributes a value and that effects the value you can assign other attributes. Mental and physical are separate. Okay.

 

[Excidium II]

luj1 is a butthurt idiot.

 

[luj1]

RPG elements like levels/talents/skill advancement/whatever are nowadays being inserted in almost any genre, most notably shooters, action games and adventures.

Is that beneficial? And for whom? What are the reasons? That is the mil. $ question. It obviously works well for companies.

Such features are nerdy and prestigious, leading to lowly casuals feeling better about themselves, in a "oh look, im playing a RPG, I'm so cool and prestigious" type of way, when he is only playing a watered-down hybrid. Hybridizing anything with RPG elements seems to increase the gameplay value somewhat, and can even increase sales by calling it a "RPG" or adding some phrases like "open-world" etc.

In this thread Bioshock (shooter) and Dark souls (third-person action) were mentioned as biggest successes but we have to remember SystemShock (was it an RPG really?) and No one lives Forever 2 too.

It seems this combo works well for developers, as they think they can keep everyone happy - hard core RPG players by calling it a "RPG" and raising the gameplay value slightly for casuals. However, is such genre-blending a beneficial practice for the industry in the long run?

what the fuck lmao.

It has more to do with the well documented effect of progression elements. Unlocking content, raising numbers, etc engage people.

A nice way to repeat what I said while adding absolutely nothing substantial to the discussion

 

[Lhynn]

Triangles are fine, who gives a flying fuck. A system isnt suddenly less complex if you just start hidding numbers.

 

[Excidium II]

RPG elements like levels/talents/skill advancement/whatever are nowadays being inserted in almost any genre, most notably shooters, action games and adventures.

Is that beneficial? And for whom? What are the reasons? That is the mil. $ question. It obviously works well for companies.

Such features are nerdy and prestigious, leading to lowly casuals feeling better about themselves, in a "oh look, im playing a RPG, I'm so cool and prestigious" type of way, when he is only playing a watered-down hybrid. Hybridizing anything with RPG elements seems to increase the gameplay value somewhat, and can even increase sales by calling it a "RPG" or adding some phrases like "open-world" etc.

In this thread Bioshock (shooter) and Dark souls (third-person action) were mentioned as biggest successes but we have to remember SystemShock (was it an RPG really?) and No one lives Forever 2 too.

It seems this combo works well for developers, as they think they can keep everyone happy - hard core RPG players by calling it a "RPG" and raising the gameplay value slightly for casuals. However, is such genre-blending a beneficial practice for the industry in the long run?

what the fuck lmao.

It has more to do with the well documented effect of progression elements. Unlocking content, raising numbers, etc engage people.

Idk how to shove in your heads that practically nobody gives a fuck about CRPGs.

A good way to repeat what I said while adding absolutely nothing substantial to the discussion you bird-brain

You are mentally ill. My point has nothing to do with your infantile idea about the prestige of rpg and more to do with the addictive effect of the design.

 

[Excidium II]

Triangles are fine, who gives a flying fuck. A system isnt suddenly less complex if you just start hidding numbers.

It is suddenly a lot more shit.

 

[luj1]

Triangles are fine, who gives a flying fuck. A system isnt suddenly less complex if you just start hidding numbers.

I'd love to share your optimism , but basically it comes down to an overall cultural and education decline as the cause, and the erosion of audience's expectations/standards, which are leading to shit movies/games/shows imho

Its not only games/RPGs that are dumbing down.

 

[CryptRat]

Triangles are not the main problem, the main problem is that he's claiming character creation in Fallout and Arcanum is horrible/too complex.

 

[Excidium II]

So complex I figured it out when I was 12 and barely knew english.

 

[Lhynn]

Triangles are fine, who gives a flying fuck. A system isnt suddenly less complex if you just start hidding numbers.

It is suddenly a lot more shit.

I dont think theres anything wrong with it. You can argue that you wont be number crunching anymore, but thats fine, any retard can take the best numerical choice 10/10 times.
The moment you hide your system for the player you free yourself from the shackles of balance. The moment you hide your system you create one more element to explore in your game.
It should be an extremely intuitive system to do that, ergo a simulationist one, which im fine with.

I'd love to share your optimism , but basically what it comes down to is an overall cultural and education decline , and the erosion of audience expectations/standard, which are leading to shit movies/games/shows imho

Its not only games/RPGs that are dumbing down.

Thats a different issue altogether that doesnt really have anything to do with presentation but with execution. When it comes down to it you just dont trust them to design and implement a good system.

 

[Excidium II]

The moment you hide your system for the player you free yourself from the shackles of balance. The moment you hide your system you create one more element to explore in your game.
It should be an extremely intuitive system to do that, ergo a simulationist one, which im fine with.

For about a week which is the time it takes for some autists to figure it out. It's all going to be numbers under the hood, all you achieve is forcing people to waste time googling to make informed choices.