Vault Dweller Soapbox: How to Survive the Indiepocalypse in 5 Easy Steps

[Lurker King]

WingedPixel, You are disregarding the following facts in your criticism:

(1) He was just a writer with a shitty engine 10 years ago, with no team and working in his spare time. This was his first game. Now he can code, have a basic understanding of game developing, a team and audience.

(2) The team was paid to work on Dead State during 3 or 4 years in that period.

(3) The 10-year thing is misleading, since he only give up his job later on.

(4) He will release another game this year using his first game assets to improve revenue.

If you put the 10 year into perspective, his plan sounds as reasonable as it can get.

 

[HobGoblin42]

I'm look at it from a pure business perspective, where the numbers don't look so good.

I never said that AoD wasn't successful, I just pointed out that when you run the numbers it's not as amazing as it seems. Also "very good income of indie devs" is a shitty metric, you need to compare to what the market rate you can earn and $50k for an experienced programme...

I guess that's your error in reasoning. The motives to develop indie games are not about business nor about having a well-paid job. Talented and experienced developers consciously quit well-paid jobs in big companies to follow their very own idea of creating a game. That often resulted in successful indie games such as Banner Saga, Legend of Grimrock, Braid or Limbo, but also in many failures and personal tragedies we've never heard of.

Therefore making a living of your own creative work is already a huge success in my book and Iron Tower achieved that goal with AoD.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm look at it from a pure business perspective...

Why? From the business perspective, making hardcore indie RPGs is a dumb idea no matter how you look at. At best you'd have a mediocre (by any other standards) success, at worst you'd sell fuck all. That's your range: fuck all - just enough to continue. So the assumption is that anyone who's making such games isn't doing it for money or considers himself a businessman.

...but I believe that ignoring that side and ignoring the opportunity costs of game dev is a disservice and shitty advice.

I humbly disagree. You have to pick one: passion or business perspective/opportunity costs/etc. If you want both you'd better be passionate about Diablo clones.

Yes it was a success, I just don't think you provded any useful, actionable advice beyond make a good game and build a community.

The reason I wrote this article is not because I was high on our admittedly mediocre success but because I had too many conversations with different developers who ran into problems after releasing their first game (either didn't sell enough to continue or sold enough but they're in debt because they spent more than they should have). In general, treating 'making RPGs' as a business is a mistake. In my opinion, of course.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Ukraine (where $30k USD/year is more than a competitive salary for programmers)

Either you're overestimating local salaries or I haven't followed the news lately. I'm sure in reality the actual salary is 25-50% of the number you've posted, but I need to look into it.

Yes it was a success, I just don't think you provded any useful, actionable advice beyond make a good game and build a community.

I think VD provided some common sense.
Personally, I agree with him, but instead of betting everything on one game (which is a good idea if you have one big idea instead of several incompatible ideas) I'd prefer to make a couple of smaller but more or less original games to test the waters and improve the skills, then focus on improving and expanding the mechanics by making bigger games with more experience, finished engine and probably with additional team members. Just like AoD and that dungeon crawler, but the other way around.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I thought about it a lot over the years, leaning toward 'we should have started small' and tested the waters, gained some skills, build up on it, etc. Looking at other RPGs, talking to other developers, I realize that a smaller game (which would have still taken years) would have gone unnoticed, sold 5-7k copies if that, and then we'd bitch about indiepocalypse and call it quits.

So better it all on one game is fine as long as you think it through and do your best as it's all in your hands.

 

[HobGoblin42]

Ukraine (where $30k USD/year is more than a competitive salary for programmers)

Either you're overestimating local salaries or I haven't followed the news lately. I'm sure in reality the actual salary is 25-50% of the number you've posted, but I need to look into it.

Nope, the salaries for senior game programmer in Kyiv are about $2500 USD/month. At least for those I personally know who negotiated dollar salaries back then.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

I thought about it a lot over the years, leaning toward 'we should have started small' and tested the waters, gained some skills, build up on it, etc. Looking at other RPGs, talking to other developers, I realize that a smaller game (which would have still taken years) would have gone unnoticed, sold 5-7k copies if that, and then we'd bitch about indiepocalypse and call it quits.

So better it all on one game is fine as long as you think it through and do your best as it's all in your hands.

I'm already making a smaller game (pretty short adventure/dungeon crawler hybrid with emphasis on resource management) to build the base for a bigger game (also an adventure/dungeon crawler), but to be honest 5-7k copies for a thirdworldian one-man army is better than nothing, especially since I can't afford to make something big (right now) and prefer to work alone. But thanks for the advice, I'll have to think about it in the nearest future.

Nope, the salaries for senior game programmer in Kyiv are about $2500 USD/month. At least for those I personally know who had a dollar bound salary in their contracts.

Ah, I see. Kyiv is a fairly expensive place, so it's understandable I never encountered such salaries here.
I remember the average salary in Black Wing Foundation (Dnepropetrovsk-based studio) is about $400/month, which is good money considering that the average local salary is about ~$120-160/month.

 

[Viata]

I'd prefer to make a couple of smaller but more or less original games to test the waters and improve the skills, then focus on improving and expanding the mechanics by making bigger games with more experience, finished engine and probably with additional team members. .

I'm going with this route. But things may change, anyway.

 

[Wayward Son]

I'd prefer to make a couple of smaller but more or less original games to test the waters and improve the skills, then focus on improving and expanding the mechanics by making bigger games with more experience, finished engine and probably with additional team members. .

I'm going with this route. But things may change, anyway.

Same here. I'm gonna start with a roguelike/roguelite and then make some gold box style games and go from there.

 

[WingedPixel]

I'm look at it from a pure business perspective...

Why? From the business perspective, making hardcore indie RPGs is a dumb idea no matter how you look at. At best you'd have a mediocre (by any other standards) success, at worst you'd sell fuck all. That's your range: fuck all - just enough to continue. So the assumption is that anyone who's making such games isn't doing it for money or considers himself a businessman.

I was discussing your article about the Indiepocalypse which is absolutely a business discussion given the whole Indiepocalypse issue is about making a sustainable indie business. The whole passion angle is kind of irrelevant at that level - you either have a sustainable business model or you don't. Your passion might let you accept a lower standard of living, but you still need to sustain that.

I humbly disagree. You have to pick one: passion or business perspective/opportunity costs/etc. If you want both you'd better be passionate about Diablo clones.

In general, treating 'making RPGs' as a business is a mistake. In my opinion, of course.

So you're not giving advice on surviving the Indiepocalypse then? You're suggesting that it has come to pass and indie RPGs aren't sustainable?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm look at it from a pure business perspective...

Why? From the business perspective, making hardcore indie RPGs is a dumb idea no matter how you look at. At best you'd have a mediocre (by any other standards) success, at worst you'd sell fuck all. That's your range: fuck all - just enough to continue. So the assumption is that anyone who's making such games isn't doing it for money or considers himself a businessman.

I was discussing your article about the Indiepocalypse which is absolutely a business discussion given the whole Indiepocalypse issue is about making a sustainable indie business. The whole passion angle is kind of irrelevant at that level - you either have a sustainable business model or you don't. Your passion might let you accept a lower standard of living, but you still need to sustain that.

Well... The way I see it, business is about making money. You may like or even love what you do but the primary goal is money. Passion in the context of this discussion is about doing what you love, the financial aspects serving a single purpose - being able to work "uninterrupted" (i.e. not taking side projects to survive or getting a full time job). From the business perspective you should adjust the product to increase sales. From the passion perspective you should tell people who don't like it to fuck off.

So you're not giving advice on surviving the Indiepocalypse then? You're suggesting that it has come to pass and indie RPGs aren't sustainable?

I'm giving advice on surviving the "indiepocalypse" while pursuing your passion.

 

[Infinitron]

Vault Dweller claims that he wrote this article in response to problems and situations encountered by several indie developers that he's familiar with, so it surely has some value, even if it's not correct for some "general case" of indie development.

 

[Ranselknulf]

You're looking at it the wrong way.

First, working part-time doesn't count as it's nothing but a hobby (i.e. shit you do in your free time for your own amusement). If I had to figure out what I've actually earned, I would count only the 2 full time years as that's the only time I could have been working elsewhere and the only valid 'lost wages' claim. Second, like I said, it's not about getting paid for your work, it's about moving forward and using the money we've earned to fund our next game, which is the only thing that matters.

I'm look at it from a pure business perspective, where the numbers don't look so good. From a passion/hobby/blood & sweat perspective a pure numbers analysis doesn't make as much sense, but I believe that ignoring that side and ignoring the opportunity costs of game dev is a disservice and shitty advice. Especially when most of the circumstances of your development aren't repeatable (unless you plan on spending 8+ years part-time again...)

Basically your numbers barely add up. Claiming that you have some formula for success given you have one border-line successful is pretty arrogant given your one-moderate-hit wonder status.

Wasn't "absolutely an indie success!" just a moment ago?

Yes it was a success, I just don't think you provded any useful, actionable advice beyond make a good game and build a community.

And for the record I hope you're not a one-hit wonder!

Fuck the business perspective. Making a god damn fun game is enough.

You are everything wrong with game development today.

 

[WingedPixel]

Vault Dweller claims that he wrote this article in response to problems and situations encountered by several indie developers that he's familiar with, so it surely has some value, even if it's not correct for some "general case" of indie development.

I read a lot of these indie dev advice/post-mortem articles so when someone who creates a very successful, pretty unique RPG writes one I was hoping for unique insights. I got none. If this is the first such article you've read, then sure it might seem interesting, I found it quite shallow.

I also think it's a bit dishonest because its not about the "indiepocalypse" or even about sustainable game dev. It's contradictory - claiming that marketing is too expensive, then claim they wrote thousands and thousands of forum posts building their community (hint: that's PR) and their first point is about making a unique design that stands out (that's also marketing). Marketing purposes might not be the rational behind those decisions and actions, but they are still very much marketing related.

I would have no issue if the article had been: choose a design you're passionate about, spend 10+ years developing it part time while building a community through open development, then hope it sells enough so you can go full-time.

Fuck the business perspective. Making a god damn fun game is enough.

You are everything wrong with game development today.

Clearly someone who whats developers to be successful enough to keep making games is a fucking monster!

 

[Infinitron]

Well like I said, unique or not, it seems those insights aren't that obvious to at least some developers.

 

[Lomer2]

It's contradictory - claiming that marketing is too expensive, then claim they wrote thousands and thousands of forum posts building their community (hint: that's PR) and their first point is about making a unique design that stands out (that's also marketing). Marketing purposes might not be the rational behind those decisions and actions, but they are still very much marketing related.

I see no contradiction here. VD explicitly said that paid marketing is expensive and without guaranteed return (unless you put a lot of money into it). But then he added that you still have other marketing options opened:

Without a marketing budget, your options are limited: you need the goodwill of the gaming media, which brings us back to Step 1 – design. Unless your game is worth talking about, the media will ignore it. They want to write what people want to read. If nobody wants to hear about your game, well, this brings us to Step 3 – Community: your most effective way of marketing your game and creating that interest that might result in the media gods looking at your creation favorably and blessing your efforts with a preview or a quick impressions article.

In other words, he explicitly recommended engaging with the community as an affordable marketing tool.

For me, his article is aimed at future developers of VD's ilk - people who want to make a living as game developers but at the same time working only only games they personally enjoy (which, for the most part, will prevent them from becoming filthy rich). It is certainly not a guideline how to grow to AAA developer and it never claimed to be.

 

[Lurker King]

I read a lot of these indie dev advice/post-mortem articles so when someone who creates a very successful, pretty unique RPG writes one I was hoping for unique insights. I got none.

Hint: the article is also PR.

I would have no issue if the article had been: choose a design you're passionate about, spend 10+ years developing it part time while building a community through open development, then hope it sells enough so you can go full-time.

That is exactly what the article is about.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I also think it's a bit dishonest because its not about the "indiepocalypse" or even about sustainable game dev.

The title is a joke ("5 easy steps" should make it fairly obvious). Indiepocalypse is 'market as usual' - thousands of people offering different variations of the same product, trying to get potential customers' attention.

Sustainable game dev? The only sustainable way is building it yourself which requires the steps outlined in the article: make the first game on pure enthusiasm, use the revenues to fund your next game. This is the only sustainable model because no-name indie developers can't get much on Kickstarter and signing up with a publisher is like going to a loan shark. So what other option is there?

Coincidentally, that's how you develop and grow ANY business without a bank loan - you work for a few years on pure enthusiasm, putting most revenues into the business.

 

[Viata]

Do what you love or do what someone else loves.

 

[Infinitron]

Mentioned in RPS Sunday Papers: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07/10/the-sunday-papers-410/

Age of Decadence has a reputation as a punishing RPG, and its developers are similarly no-nonsense in this post on how to survive the indiepocalypse. It’s a really a very straightforward breakdown of the basic things they feel you need to do in order to have a chance of success as a developer.

 

[laclongquan]

Black Chicken Studio, the maker of Academagia, is a good example for VD's guide, I think.
They make the 1st game, Academagia, as ambitious as it can be, then use it to build upon several other games.

Academagia = Kingdom of Dragon Pass + Harry Potter style + hundreds skills and quests.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Black Chicken Studio, the maker of Academagia, is a good example for VD's guide, I think.
They make the 1st game, Academagia, as ambitious as it can be, then use it to build upon several other games.

Academagia = Kingdom of Dragon Pass + Harry Potter style + hundreds skills and quests.

Alas, the success of Academagia wasn't enough for them to make an Ars Magica RPG. I'm still sad their KS failed.

 

[laclongquan]

Academagia is too niche after all.

 

[you know what time it is]

Academagia was greenlit on steam by the way, and 2nd Year is in dev still. So there's a glimmer of hope for Ars Magica game somewhere down the line.