Video: Is Bioware moving on from RPGs?

[Athelas]

I had to double-check to see if this wasn't a 10-year old necro from when Jade Empire was released.

 

[DraQ]

There's roleplaying in videogames.

Mm hmm, and one does not need to emulate tabletop to have it.

RPG is defined by the presence of systems that distinguish between different kinds of characters.

A lot of games without role playing have that e.g. Diablo.

And they are still more of a something one would associate with the term RPG than, say, Shogo or STALKER.

Besides, it doesn't seem particularly useful to completely divorce pretty much every aspect of game's mechanics and presentation from something that attempts to be a genre definition and instead hinge it almost exclusively on content, so for example Fallout and some FPS may both be cRPGs, while, say a (poor) modded campaign for the same Fallout and another very similar FPS won't.

How about this:
Most games allow some form of roleplaying (even if only in the form of LARPing), but only RPGs actually keep track of the *character* you're playing (instead of at most tracking consequences in the surrounding world).

It doesn't matter if the mechanics has anything in common with tabletop, but it needs to be there for game to qualify as cRPG.

 

[Prime Junta]

Oh ya think?

As far as I'm concerned, GOOD.

Both DA:I and the (later) Mass Effects would've been much more fun without the really shallow and really bad RPG elements (dumb mechanics, numbers-inflation based character progression, grindy combat, masses of fetch quests).

At least this way they'll have the possibility of shipping something that's more focused and has better gameplay (since they'll only have one type of gameplay to test), while still putting in all the choose-your-waifu minigames they want. The RPG elements in BioWare games have been deadweight for a long time.

As long as we'll see more mid-budget actual RPG's -- and it looks like those are coming along nicely -- I for one won't be complaining. I might even end up playing one of their AAA+++ monsters to the end one of these days.

 

[Fairfax]

Mass Effect games gradually stopped being called "RPGs" by BioWare or EA. Since ME2 the devs and PR people constantly reassured people that ME2 and ME3 wouldn't have "pointless stats', "behind-the-scenes randomness" and stuff like that. The RPG elements in the first were the result of developer bias and the remnants of their previous work. Once EA took over they decided these things had to go in order to appeal to a wider audience.
The back of the boxes show the stark contrast between the marketing and the direction for each game:

Note how none of these ever mention "RPG".

The first had this moody art with a bunch of aliens, lots of colour, and the text focused on "adventure", "exploration", tactical combat, immersion, etc.
The second has roughly the same idea as the first, but with a much heavier focus on combat, enemies, weapons, action, and so on. Nothing about choices, story or role-playing. It does say "explore a massive galaxy", which is laughable.
Then the third has EA's focus group and market research crap in full force. No alien characters (just couple of enemies in the first screenshot that you can barely see); no mention of exploration, adventure, immersion or role-playing, and a huge IGN quote to sell it. The line about combat is the very opposite:
ME1 - "Thrilling, tactical combat as you lead an elite squad of three"
ME3 - "go tactical or guns blazing", "BIGGER, MORE INTENSE AND EVEN SEXIER".


Anyway, I don't think EA is moving away from RPGs, but they're going to use Dragon Age for it. Mass Effect might get some of its RPG elements back, though, as their Star Wars open-world game will already cover the "intense epic galactic action" crowd.
Not that anyone should give a fuck, of course.

 

[Roguey]

And they are still more of a something one would associate with the term RPG than, say, Shogo or STALKER.

STALKER has role playing.

only RPGs actually keep track of the *character* you're playing (instead of at most tracking consequences in the surrounding world).

Well that covers all Bioware games so....

The RPG elements in the first were the result of developer bias and the remnants of their previous work. Once EA took over they decided these things had to go in order to appeal to a wider audience.

Back when he still had a livejournal, Patrick Weekes wrote that ME2's changes had nothing to do with EA (as in they had a pre-release conversation where he and someone else said "They're going to blame this on EA, aren't they?" "Yep."). They got rid of them because they lowered the quality of the gameplay.

 

[Fairfax]

And they are still more of a something one would associate with the term RPG than, say, Shogo or STALKER.

STALKER has role playing.

only RPGs actually keep track of the *character* you're playing (instead of at most tracking consequences in the surrounding world).

Well that covers all Bioware games so....

The RPG elements in the first were the result of developer bias and the remnants of their previous work. Once EA took over they decided these things had to go in order to appeal to a wider audience.

Back when he still had a livejournal, Patrick Weekes wrote that ME2's changes had nothing to do with EA (as in they had a pre-release conversation where he and someone else said "They're going to blame this on EA, aren't they?" "Yep."). They got rid of them because they lowered the quality of the gameplay.

I remember that, but I don't buy it. Would they ever throw EA under the bus? It's too much of a coincidence that everything they cut and changed fit the casual mass market direction to broaden its appeal. I can only remember one traditional RPG element that made the cut: upgrading skills.
Anyway, ME2 might be debatable, but ME3 had that crap written all over it.

 

[Roguey]

remember that, but I don't buy it. Would they ever throw EA under the bus? It's too much of a coincidence that everything they cut and changed fit the casual mass market direction to broaden its appeal. I can only remember one traditional RPG element that made the cut: upgrading skills.

He made the post before the details of ME2's changes were even known. Mass Effect was also always intended for the mass market, I don't know how anyone could possibly think otherwise.

 

[Fairfax]

remember that, but I don't buy it. Would they ever throw EA under the bus? It's too much of a coincidence that everything they cut and changed fit the casual mass market direction to broaden its appeal. I can only remember one traditional RPG element that made the cut: upgrading skills.

He made the post before the details of ME2's changes were even known. Mass Effect was also always intended for the mass market, I don't know how anyone could possibly think otherwise.

I mean the shooter mass market. ME1 was meant for a much different audience, and sold much less than its sequels. One of the doctors (I think it was Muzyka) once said (I don't remember the exact words): "back then we didn't think about the appeal or marketing, we just did things", then said that's why they made something unusual and with little mass market appeal like Jade Empire.

 

[Roguey]

I mean the shooter mass market. ME1 was meant for a much different audience, and sold much less than its sequels.

No it wasn't. Here's a classic VD prank from before it was released http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=141

Priestly had to make a post on the Bioware forums telling them no, that was not in fact real. Before that, this year in review http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=122

It just wouldn't be right to have one of these articles without bringing up BioWare, who are probably the biggest RPG developer out there and also probably partially to blame for the dismal state of the genre. It was their Baldur's Gate series that set the trend all the way back in 1998 for flashy RPGs with linear plots, cliche stories, terrible combat--and blockbuster sales.

But apparently BioWare has gotten tired of catering to the difficult PC market, what with demands for interesting plots, NPCs that aren't a pain in the ass and hey, maybe something without elves in it for a change? No, it's much easier to pander to console kiddies whose idea of RPG gameplay is collecting multicoloured ocarinas or watching twenty hours of FMV cutscenes. BioWare's forthcoming projects are mostly to be released on the Xbox 360 and include a whole trilogy of sci-fi "RPGs" called Mass Effect (colloquially known as "gravity" to those of us with a clue), which might be interesting if they weren't more FPS than RPG, according to press releases.

One of the doctors (I think it was Muzyka) once said (I don't remember the exact words): "back then we didn't think about the appeal or marketing, we just did things",

He was lying.

that's why they made something unusual and with little mass market appeal like Jade Empire.

Jade Empire may have bombed, but not because Asian-themed console hack and slashers have "little mass market appeal." (Ninja Gaiden, Onimusha and others say hi) It did so because it was a bad game.

 

[Theldaran]

Is it a surprise, considering the people who did their most memorable RPGs are mostly gone from the company? Also, this is not Final Fantasy VII's age, pure RPGs aren't cool right now, and EA needs to sell. Lots.

 

[Prime Junta]

Jade Empire may have bombed, but not because Asian-themed console hack and slashers have "little mass market appeal." (Ninja Gaiden, Onimusha and others say hi) It did so because it was a bad game.

If JE was a bad game, then so is everything BioWare has done since BG2. In fact IMO it strikes a better balance between RPG and action elements than anything they've done since.

 

[Roguey]

If JE was a bad game, then so is everything BioWare has done since BG2. In fact IMO it strikes a better balance between RPG and action elements than anything they've done since.

ME2 is a competent cover shooter, JE is not a competent action game. To rely on good old Sawyer quotes:

Jade Empire runs at 30 fps, isn't very responsive, uses vague collision, and has a pretty shallow input and attack priority system. Battle Raper II probably will be a better fighting game than Jade Empire was. JE's fighting system doesn't detract from its qualities as an RPG, but comparing it to what I would consider action games (God of War, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry) is slightly questionable and comparing it to fighting games (Soul Calibur II, Tekken 5, Dead or Alive) is very questionable.

 

[GrainWetski]

They did about 9 years ago.

 

[Infinitron]

Battle Raper II probably will be a better fighting game than Jade Empire was.

 

[Roguey]

How have I never noticed that?

 

[Infinitron]

How have I never noticed that?

SomethingAwful Battle Raper review: http://www.somethingawful.com/hentai-game-reviews/battle-raper-hyper/

Also mentioned in this classic article under the name "Combat Rapist": http://www.somethingawful.com/news/grass-always-greener/

 

[pippin]

Someone should ask JES what's his Main in Battle Raper 2.

 

[Frozen]

It doesn't matter their game will be shit RPG or not.
Its not even SJW or retarded emo teen writing.
The problem is nosedive in product quality after ME2.
Everything looks like put together with as least as possible effort and resources, copy pasted and recycled for shipping.

 

[Lilura]

The problem is nosedive in product quality after ME2 Baldur's Gate.

Fixed.

 

[Frozen]

ME2 was a quality product for what it was, a TPS.
You could see resources and some effort put into it.
For a 2009. game it looked really good, it was polished on launch without game breaking bugs, even the story was not 100% BioWare nerd formula.
The thing that it was not RPG is a different matter.