What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

[ilitarist]

About morally grey: we also have Powder Gangers. They're convicts who killed the guards. There are decent people among them but they're really evil by any measure you can think of. Their introduction quest is helping them kill an innocent merchant and subjugate a place that saved you from certain death for free. This is even harder to justify than joining Legion.

I don't think there's much grey in FNV. There are clearly evil ruthless amoral factions who have some redeeming qualities as well as good civilized guys who have some problems like conservatism or corruption. Still corrupted politician is not morally equal to rapist crucifier with sort of noble intentions.

 

[aweigh]

all of the factions in FNV are equally bad. the NCR has tons of quests where you see firsthand their corruption, only problem is there is more NCR content than Legion content and the sub-factions forget about it, they barely had time to texture powder ganger uniforms let alone make sure their one and only questline is glitch-free (in order to fully experience powder ganger questline you have to completely ignore goodsprings and go to the prison immediately).

the only interesting thing i would concede (to the idea that NCR good, legion Bad) is that the game intentionally sets up the NCR as representative of what we consider "normal", so that even when we see firsthand how corrupt and soulless they are (such as when that NCR captain casually murders innocent civilians inside that apartment, or how they steal land and resources and colonize) these things somehow seem to fly over most people because this is how the western world operates and majority of gamers still keep on thinking they're "good".

as I mentioned above, though, I do see why a lot would consider them good instead of corrupt because:

- the NCR is the only faction in the game with enough content to actually have things like subtlety and context and actual shades of grey.
- the Legion faction is missing 40% of its content, i.e. all the "grey".
- the sub-factions, the ones that are under the thumb of NCR/Legion or trying to live independently, barely have enough content to merit the same thought-exercises as the NCR and and Legion

It's a testament to the game's great writing that even with so many wheels missing so many spokes the axle functions so marvelously!

EDIT: bonus example of NCR cruelty how they starve out towns like Sloan with insistence on imposing their currency. They may not be in there raping/crucifying the Sloan residents but they're killing them all the same.

 

[ilitarist]

Still I don't see how NCR is nearly is bad as Legion.

NCR has bad people inside who do war crimes. NCR subjugates people. As you've said it's easy to compare them to traditional normal great powers like, well, USA. But Legion are somewhere around Nazi levels of awfulness (while not actually not being Nazis at all and I applaud the game for that), they commit atrocities as a sanction policy. This is indeed quite similar to comparing WW2 USA/Great Britain to Nazi Germany, and that was probably the least "morally grey" conflict in history.

Plus, I think that Legion may miss not just the content that shows it's better sides but also its shortcomings. It's quite obvious that Legion will break if Caesar doesn't reform it into something else before his health deteriorates. We don't know how really effective is its economy back home: all we know is that it's safe out there but who knows maybe it's even more corrupt than NCR.

 

[Zero Credibility]

such as when that NCR captain casually murders innocent civilians inside that apartment

I don't recall that, when does that happen?

 

[aweigh]

aerotech office park during a quest where the ncr captain asks you to collect evidence of wrongdoing on some people ("junkies") living inside one of the apartments; dude ends up turning into Judge Dredd.

it all depends on how "bad" you consider colonization and expansionism to be, returning for a sec. on whether or not NCR are as bad as Legion.

NCR were smarter, that's for sure, as was pointed out above (by many people) the Legion as presented in-game was not sustainable and would devolve into pure anarchy after Ceasar, whereas the NCR would definitely survive as an institution due to their more effective tactics.

total warfare and slave trade headed cult of personality and tribal alleigances

versus

capitalism and expansionism headed by a democratic military

there's no contest there, but in the end both are doing the same things with one doing it more brutally than the other.

- what are the sloan residents if not slaves of the NCR?
- what is nipton (before being razed) but a den of corruption given life by the NCR?
- are the slums surrounding the strip nothing but ghettos cultivated by the NCR colonization of lands and resources?

yes, i am basically saying that modern western powers are just as bad as nazis ever were; however this is not the overt thematic message of the game (thank goodness). Obsidian could have easily gone full fascim with the NCR, and also could have easily injected marxist ideology, but they (rightly) kept things simple while still managing to present cohesive analogues.

goddamn F: NV is a damn impressive piece of game writing.

 

[Starwars]

Isn't that just the drug dealer he executes? I mean, bad enough the way he does it but I don't think he kills any other people?

 

[Zero Credibility]

If that's the quest I think it is then I think you are really stretching it here. It was a civilian, he was not innocent and there was nothing casual about it. You get hired to investigate this guy that the officer thinks is trouble for cheating other refugees out of their money. You find out that he really is cheating, he goes to arrest him, the guy decides to resist and mouth off the person with the gun one too many times. It's still probably murder, but hardly "casually murders innocent civilians". It was meant to show that NCR is so stretched even their good works (caring about those refugees) fails.

 

[aweigh]

it is murder, and a war crime. needless to say you're also forgetting that the entire situation is the fault of the NCR to begin with, due to the raging political strife in the republic due to corruption:

"This here's where folks go when their luck runs out. Drifters up from the Republic, locals that can't turn a dime, drunken reprobates from all around." - Captain Parker

the problem is further compounded by:

"It's NCR owned farmland. It produces a lot of the crops that supply McCarran and the Dam. The farmers are all civilians, though. They work the farms, and in return they get a safe place to stay and clean food and water. Some of 'em aren't all that grateful, though." - private ortega, from sharecropper farms, next to Aerotech)

As with everything in the NCR on a surface level it sounds right until you realize that these "farmers" are displaced civilians obligated out of desperation and necessity, "...in return they get a safe place...".

Everything the NCR "fixes" was broken by their expansionist greed in the first place. They bring nothing of benefit to the Mojave except their institutions, which are of arguable value to the mojave residents.

Sure if the choice is being "displaced" and working a farm versus getting crucified, obviously I will side with the faction that does not crucify, but this still doesn't mean one is good and one bad. (both are bad).

 

[Zero Credibility]

It was a crime, possibly manslaughter. But to leap from that to NCR casually murders civilians is a hell of a stretch. And lets put this in perspective, you can see much worse things done just around the corner. War never changes and all that, and war is rarely kind to refugees. It's not like this was a good place to live before NCR came either (it was just ruins with warring tribes), or that they are the cause of all of its problems. The biggest problem in outer New Vegas are the Fiends, who are supported by the Khans and the Legion. And just imagine how those refugees would fare in Fiend territory.

Look, I'm not saying that NCR is pure. It's supposed to be current western democracy all over again, and I'm not a fan of how that worked out in real life either. What I am saying is that the Legion, as represented in the game, is not a viable, moral or sane alternative to this. On any reasonable moral scale the Legion is so, so far away on the eeeeeeeeevil side from the NCR it is not even funny. If NCR is bad, than the Legion are amoral monsters. If the Legion is just bad, than NCR are pure good guys. You cannot say they are just "both bad".

edit:
Oh, and I don't think those people in Aerotech are supposed to be farmers. Don't farmers have their own bunks at the farm?

 

[anvi]

I didn't like NV, still surprised at all the love for it on codex. Here's how it works in my mind.

NV is just an action shooting game, it may be a bit deeper than others, but as an overall experience it was barely any different from playing Fallout 3 or 4, or Borderlands for that matter. Yeah it might have more choices with dialogue and stuff, but none of that was significant enough for it to make me feel like I am playing an RPG. I am still roaming with a gun, getting ambushed by bandits etc. I still had a quest to go and kill some baddies in some camp surrounded by iron fences. To me it doesn't feel much different to Stalker, yet I had a lot more fun in the Stalker games.

The problem I have with NV is the same as all the Bethesda games. They are trying to be action games, yet the action isn't fun enough. I had way more fun getting ambushed in Stalker because the AI was better, the enemies were generally harder so I used to shit myself whenever I got attacked, every bullet mattered, etc.. It was more hardcore and more intense. None of that was true in NV, I had plenty of ammo, I had a huge arsenal of weapons, and yet never had fun with any of them because I never had a reason to use them. I use to always try to kill stuff with my most basic gun, a basic rifle. If I was struggling I would run backwards and dig out an assault rifle, or machine gun or something. If that failed, I would go to my minigun, lazer minigun, grenades, rocket launchers etc. The problem is... I never got to that point. So I completed the game with a million rockets, grenades, and all kinds of stuff that I never needed. For actual gunplay, nothing beats playing Duke Nukem 3d and hearing my friends screaming obscenities at me because they ran into my lazer trip bombs. The Bethesda games (and NV) are not fun enough to do that.

Yet it doesn't work as a tactical RPG either.

So for me there would be no point trying to work out all the things it did wrong because there were too many. I didn't even enjoy the story. I completed it, did very few side quests because the ones I did do were boring. Vegas itself felt small and crap. If I am gonna play a shooter I'd rather play Blood Money or Halflife 2 episodes or something that at least has some real gameplay. If I am going to play a tactical RPG I'd rather play Blackguards, Jagged Alliance, etc. This half and half shit doesn't work. I guess it could work if it was made by a genius team with a big budget and the willingness to make a great game, but none of the Bethesda (or NV) games are even close to that.

p.s. also the very fact that it is balanced for different play styles ruins it. How it should work, is that I go into a building with my rifle, shoot a few guys up on the balcony, then a bunch of guys come out the doors on the ground floor and shoot at me. So I duck behind a statue or something and whip out my minigun. I mow them all down. But then some big killer robots show up, so I whip out my rocket launcher, and blast them and half the building the pieces. But these games don't work like that because the high end weapons have to made weak enough that if someone focuses entirely on playing as a Gatling Lazer Gun Guy or a Rocket Launcher & Explosives guy, they wont breeze through the game. But that means for me, a normal person who focuses on rifles or whatever, the few oh shit moments are ruined because I can't use my rocket launcher to save the day, because it is weak and has bad aim and whatever else. It is the opposite to how good FPSs work because in those games you save your big weapons for big oh shit moments, and when that happens, they do enormous damage. Anyone old enough to remember the BFG9000 from doom? But you don't get to enjoy that in these types of games because they had to balance the BFG9k for people who want to only play with that.

Also, grenades and explosives are generally shit in games. The only time I enjoyed them as much as I should, was in the first Sniper Elite game. You had great scripted missions and one of them has you sneak into a camp in the middle of a city, and kill a bunch of enemy soldiers and snipers. But once you do that, a cutscene plays and says the enemy know you are there, and they are sending tanks and a huge number of troops to kill you. All those guys vs you... The plus side is you are in a good defensive location, they are advancing to you, and you have a huge pile of anti personnel mines, anti tank mines, trip wires, grenades, etc. So you get 5 minutes to prepare and set up all your lols traps for the nazis and then hide and watch the carnage. That's how explosives should be in a fun game.

Again, none of these games work like that, because they are trying to do too much and doing a shit job of everything.

 

[Trashos]

(in order to fully experience powder ganger questline you have to completely ignore goodsprings and go to the prison immediately).

You can side with Goodsprings and still do the Powder Ganger questline. Arrange the showdown, but don't do any of the killing yourself (I go cower behind a rock and let Goodsprings settlers win on their own). Thus, you only get "shunned" by the Powder Gangers, and you can still do their questline.

Your general point still stands, of course.

Even if you think that's enough to make them deserve what they got,

In Nipton I could have been Vulpes and I could have been the Mayor. That's what makes it so intriguing.

- They should have an elaborate "attack this specific location" quest, the same way that NCR attacks Nelson.

There is a Legion side to that quest as well where you attack Forlorn Hope.

I am not very experienced with it, but I think it was a rather straightforward quest, right? In contrast, the attack against Nelson is very elaborate with different powers supporting you depending on how you did on other quests. That's what I would have liked to see.

 

[aweigh]

i wouldn't want to argue that they are equally bad as it is a losing argument, especially with the game as-is. I concede that it is indisputable that, were one to actually live in F: NV, the NCR are most definitely a better option to attach one's livelihood to.

however if one looks at things objectively both ncr and legion are conquest-loving invaders, and there is no reason for a Mojave resident to welcome either.

it depends on what the crux of this is about though:

- is this about whether the game presents the legion in an intentionally overly simplified manner that's utilized to portray them as villanous?

then yes, yes the game absolutely does

- is this about whether the NCR is good and the Legion bad?

depends, and that's a testament to the game's writing. After all, remember that slavery and crucifixion is all stuff that was done by Rome 24/7 and Rome is rarely portrayed in modern media as badly as the Legion is portrayed in the game, which I find p. funny.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Eh, fair enough. Though I do have to say that at least Romans brought their Roman law, culture, trade and roads with them as they went a conquering. Legion brings nothing of a sort, it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The only thing positive ever said about them is that they have pacified the tribes and raiders back home. Something that NCR has also done in their back yard just as well, only with a lot less crucifixions and heads on spikes. So it always stuns me that some (not meaning you here) defend it as a good idea compared to the NCR.

 

[aweigh]

all this FNV talk makes me want to reinstall it again.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Same here, I have an urge to ventilate Vulpes head again. I wonder if I could make it work in wine.

 

[aweigh]

 

[Sigourn]

The reason there is a place for a moral discussion in New Vegas when it comes to NCR and Legion is because what you see of the Legion isn't what Caesar wants the Legion to be forever and ever. For all intents and purposes, the NCR is and will always be like it is. It's your average real life country, but on a smaller scale, whereas Caesar's Legion is just a placeholder for what is to come: a glorious empire where law, order and obedience will prevail.

Where New Vegas fails, in my opinion, is in not giving Caesar a proper successor. I don't know if the Courier is expected to become that person, should he join Caesar.

 

[ilitarist]

I didn't like NV, still surprised at all the love for it on codex. Here's how it works in my mind.

NV is just an action shooting game, it may be a bit deeper than others, but as an overall experience it was barely any different from playing Fallout 3 or 4, or Borderlands for that matter. Yeah it might have more choices with dialogue and stuff, but none of that was significant enough for it to make me feel like I am playing an RPG. I am still roaming with a gun, getting ambushed by bandits etc. I still had a quest to go and kill some baddies in some camp surrounded by iron fences. To me it doesn't feel much different to Stalker, yet I had a lot more fun in the Stalker games.

Agree. I've been frowned upon here talking about how Fallout NV is only marginally better than Fallout 3: it has much better world building, much better reactivity and decision making and slightly better writing. It has some improvements in gameplay itself (more skillchecks, interesting perks), some things are worse (looking down the sights is a questionable addition, level cap is so high you are destined to own everything in late game, there isn't really much in regards of difficulty curve and challenge. Yes, Fallout 3 was better about most of those things, late in the game you had actual shootouts with heavily armed Enclave in multi-leveled environment - and FNV has no memorable encounters apart from maybe some Fiends West of Vegas). Exploration in New Vegas is non-existent as there's little point to it: almost all the quests are given through traditional NPC in quest hubs cities, and even if there's some interesting loot out there you don't need it as there's no challenge.

Something like Borderlands may not do as much as FNV or F3 but what it does it does well. No wordbuilding, no decisions, but it has sort of progression system that doesn't make you overpowered in several hours, sort of economy that doesn't make money obsolete in several hours, varied action and so on and so on. Depending on the way you look at things it may be a better game.

 

[anvi]

Exactly. I think if their budget isn't big enough to make a big open world RPG that manages to do a good job of everything, then just don't do it. I'd rather play some super low budget RPG like Aarklash and get my tactical fix that way. Or a FPS or fighting game or something for my action carnage fix.

 

[Trashos]

You guys are playing the ultimate edition with the JSawyer mod, hardcore mode and hard+ difficulty, right?

 

[Drax]

And 578 more mods, yes.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Eh, fair enough. Though I do have to say that at least Romans brought their Roman law, culture, trade and roads with them as they went a conquering. Legion brings nothing of a sort, it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The only thing positive ever said about them is that they have pacified the tribes and raiders back home. Something that NCR has also done in their back yard just as well, only with a lot less crucifixions and heads on spikes. So it always stuns me that some (not meaning you here) defend it as a good idea compared to the NCR.

Game portrays Legion the same way you would see Romans if visiting Ceasars army camp deep in Gaul after the subjugation of Vercigoneterix rebelion; the laws, culture, trade and roads came there but long after that to the extend that Roman rule lasted in Northern Gaul longer than in Rome. Caesar has big plans for Mojave too planning to conquer New Vegas and turning it new Rome; capital for His Legion. As to no bringing nothing of sorts just talk to Cassidy, Raul and Merchant inside the Fort... they all tell that life for average non resisting and hence enslaved folks is better under Legion than NCR. Even final credits tell you that places which not resist Legion like Prim not under Mayers fare well after changing of occupying power. Of course to get best ending for those places you need to actually save Caesar and make sure Lanius not takes over as the former is Philosopher King and latter just a butcher.

 

[aweigh]

i don't like jsawyer mod because it reduces the level cap. Last time I played I only used mods that did this:

- weighted chems (it's ridiculous that stimpacks and other life-saving items are almost weightless, even in hard-core mod, and making chems weigh 1+ lbs helps balance the game since there is no way to implement a limit on the items you can consume during inventory menu pause)

- reduced backwards speed (this prevents the player from kiting enemies by walking backwards and shooting)

- reduced accuracy for aimed VATS shots to the head (this prevents high-LUCK build from breaking the game with 95% shots to the head at level 5 onwards)

Other than those changes I can't think of anything else the game really needs to make it better. Perhaps another mod that tweaks damage values to make enemies less bullet-spongey, but other than these changes I can't think of anything else F: NV needs.

Obviously graphical mods are on a seperate list of consideration as graphics have no impact on game play thus my take on that is "whatever floats yer boat".

 

[vota DC]

Eh, fair enough. Though I do have to say that at least Romans brought their Roman law, culture, trade and roads with them as they went a conquering. Legion brings nothing of a sort, it has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The only thing positive ever said about them is that they have pacified the tribes and raiders back home. Something that NCR has also done in their back yard just as well, only with a lot less crucifixions and heads on spikes. So it always stuns me that some (not meaning you here) defend it as a good idea compared to the NCR.

Game portrays Legion the same way you would see Romans if visiting Ceasars army camp deep in Gaul after the subjugation of Vercigoneterix rebelion; the laws, culture, trade and roads came there but long after that to the extend that Roman rule lasted in Northern Gaul longer than in Rome. Caesar has big plans for Mojave too planning to conquer New Vegas and turning it new Rome; capital for His Legion. As to no bringing nothing of sorts just talk to Cassidy, Raul and Merchant inside the Fort... they all tell that life for average non resisting and hence enslaved folks is better under Legion than NCR. Even final credits tell you that places which not resist Legion like Prim not under Mayers fare well after changing of occupying power. Of course to get best ending for those places you need to actually save Caesar and make sure Lanius not takes over as the former is Philosopher King and latter just a butcher.

Yet game confuses me. Merchants say that legion cities are great and nobody touch them inside legion land. They say that they have many cities but nothing comparable to New Vegas....yet they say they are nomadic. That is too strange, how they can be so efficient keeping order if they are nomadic, also that would't encourage exploiting economy rather than truly protect citizens.
Also a true nomadic Caesar would sing Bamboleo.

 

[aweigh]

legion knows how to get down


these new vegas dance videos are fucking great. my emotional attachment to the game is so strong that watching these fictional characters dancing happily with one another almost brings a tear to my eye.