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What was The Nameless One's original crime?

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Well the gods are the one who determines what is a sin and who they want to save. All of them together have determined that they will not forgive TNO no matter what he does. What do you call that if not the gods hating him? I mean the God of Murder who considers murder to be holy and promotes great murderers as champions is unwilling to accept any amount of murders that TNO commits as penance for what he's done. Whatever TNO did isn't simply a matter of Good vs. Evil, because if it was there are plenty of Evil gods who would be willing to allow TNO to become a petitioner of their realm after death and save him from the Hells. Whatever he did was something that involved him angering all of the gods together, forever, to the point where even Evil gods that would love to see rival deities murdered would still spit on TNO if he helped them.
If TNO was such a threat, the gods could just destroy him, i.e. send him into oblivion (you can actually do this yourself in the final confrontation with TTO), rather than send him to the Abyss where he could technically fight his way out from.

Anyway, you motivated me to look up a YouTube playthrough where someone talks to those info-dumpey NPC's in the Civic Festhall and they actually mention that petitioners who lived an evil life are twisted into footsoldiers for the Blood War after their death. So there you have it, TNO is a regular (extremely) evil petitioner who just cheated death and postponed his punishment. The only question mark is why TNO retains his memories, when petitioners are supposed to lose their mortal memories upon rebirth on their new plane, but since TNO only regains his memories when he's immortal, even that can be explained. Of course, all those deviations were done for dramatic license and because PS:T is all about how trying to escape guilt/punishment never pays off in the long run. An ending cutscene where TNO is reborn as a tiny larva (which is what is supposed to happen to petitioners to the Abyss IIRC) would probably leave most players confused.
 
Last edited:

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
Was it ever hinted which side in the Blood War he will have to fight for?
 

Hegel

Arcane
Joined
May 12, 2009
Messages
3,274
What was the level cap? 100 for each subclass? You could be the strongest entity in the multiverse.
 
Joined
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If TNO was such a threat, the gods could just destroy him, i.e. send him into oblivion (you can actually do this yourself in the final confrontation with TTO), rather than send him to the Abyss where he could technically fight his way out from.

It might not be a good thing to do so. Seeing as TNO and his rebirth can be interpreted as being connected to damaging the multiverse itself, that might be a very bad thing for the gods to do.

Anyway, you motivated me to look up a YouTube playthrough where someone talks to those info-dumpey NPC's in the Civic Festhall and they actually mention that petitioners who lived an evil life are twisted into footsoldiers for the Blood War after their death. So there you have it, TNO is a regular (extremely) evil petitioner who just cheated death and postponed his punishment. The only question mark is why TNO retains his memories, when petitioners are supposed to lose their mortal memories upon rebirth on their new plane, but since TNO only regains his memories when he's immortal, even that can be explained. Of course, all those deviations were done for dramatic license and because PS:T is all about how trying to escape guilt/punishment never pays off in the long run. An ending cutscene where TNO is reborn as a tiny larva (which is what is supposed to happen to petitioners to the Abyss IIRC) would probably leave most players confused.

Got a link?

IIRC Planescape rules = If you worship a god and the god accepts you when you die, you become a petitioner and live your afterlife in the god's realm. If you don't worship a god, or if you worship a god and the god isn't willing to accept you (e.g. if you worshiped a good god but did great evil and weren't forgiven, you might not be accepted) you'll go to the Blood War. But the latter isn't a petitioner. Someone who, say, serves Bane (God of War) doesn't go to the Blood War but to Bane's personal realm and serves him (which could be great or horrible depending on how well you do there). The concept of punishment for evil is not really a thing for most mere mortals, the only punishment is not being faithful to some god. TNO is unique in that he is punished for something that the gods universally considered evil and bad.

Also we know that TNO's unforgivable act occurred before he cheated death. Cheating death was an attempt to either get more time to do proper penance or find a means to avoid his final fate.
 

Infinitum

Scholar
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
700
Old history, really. Obviously he wasn't necessarily a cartographer as that was the Good Incantation's cover story. Probably not anyone notorious either given the distinct lack of deities/disgruntled lost souls coming after TNO. The general gist I got from it was that the planes shrugged and moved on, leaving a single crippled humanity to his torment. Good thing the player doesn't find out either, I mean what's next? His name? Sheesh.

What I do wonder however is how come TNO ceases to forget himself after death unlike the other incantations? It is something of a plotpoint with The Transcendent One iirc, but never properly explained ingame?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
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You're right, it doesn't mention gods, but that's probably just to keep them out of the picture since everything's in Sigil where the gods can't intervene. In any case it makes no sense that TNO's crime is subverting the petitioner system, because his original crime came well before he died. The original incarnation spent a whole lifetime trying to repent for his crime before he finally died.

It also doesn't make sense that he would just be some ordinary evil petitioner who cheated the system. By the end game he's one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse. Able to erase a demi-god from existence in his own realm (outside Sigil where that totally flies)? Able to create portals into Sigil (not even gods are supposed to be able to do this, only the Lady of Pain)? Able to gain 2,000,000 XP just by learning his own history through the Bronze Sphere? You could excuse this as the game taking some liberties with the rules of the setting, but he's powerful beyond estimation regardless.
 

Johannes

Arcane
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casting coach
Finally there is the last incarnation, who awoke in the Dustmen's Mortuary, the one whose memory is not veiled at death. Curiously, the person who found this incarnation's body and took it to the Mortuary was drawn to the remains. How drawn? Was it Fell? His enemy? Possibly even the mark of torment, drawing another tormented soul even in death?
Annah found his corpse that time, wasn't it?
 

Invictus

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
2,789
Location
Mexico
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Mmm very good thread, always great to learn something new about Torment
In a sense it us fitting that we never know for sure what that ultimate sin was, whatever it was not knowing makes it that much powerful since it can be virtually anything we can imagine
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
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Location
Ingrija
They just couldn't make up anything that sounded convincing enough. And it's not like becoming a grunt in Blood War is much of a punishment, petty sinners suffer way worse fates.

I reckon the shit many incarnations individually did (pretty much all of them they have bothered to mention) is far worse than whatever they were supposed to atone for. Unless the original incarnation was named Adolf. Oh wai...-
 

laclongquan

Arcane
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Searching for my kidnapped sister
1. I dont think there's a mention that gods hate him. Even gods cant find him due to his lacking a name, true, but not hate. Citation Needed!
2. It's my impression that his crime merit him a place to serve in the Blood War, but not certain what kinda crime. It is the fear of that fate that drive him toward chasing after immortality. Ie his original crime is not that big compare to the numerous crime performed upon each of his death: killing an unrelated person to resurrect himself.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
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Jul 7, 2015
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Granbretan
After finishin me last replay it seems fairly clear to me: Bloke who'd become Nameless One wanted to escape damnation to Hells, possibly arranged by Fhjull Forked Tongue, after he'd signed a contract wi Baatezu which he cunt escape bein a right nasty piece o work. He went to Ravel an charmed her into strippin away his mortality, wi side effect that each life lost consumes a strangers life an creates a shadow that obviously hates him, that seems to be original crime game refers to. In terms o vastness o multiverse its a small thing cos billions o lives are lost an created every moment, but in terms o all shadows an folk hes selfishly consumed to avoid his fate...well its everythin they had an they don't even get an afterlife, just eternity spent as an undead.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The game wanted to be grandiose and make the crime extra spicy in order to make very me-me-melodramatic text work. When in all actuality it could just had been a normal abyss petitioner finding out about his shitty fate in the shitshow that is D&D afterlife and being slightly more effective than usual at avoiding it. The shadows are really a kind of extraneous element to me. They make some plot points work (eg: the notion of a time limit) but they might as well not have been there taking the game as a whole.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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Scandinavia
1. I dont think there's a mention that gods hate him. Even gods cant find him due to his lacking a name, true, but not hate. Citation Needed!
2. It's my impression that his crime merit him a place to serve in the Blood War, but not certain what kinda crime. It is the fear of that fate that drive him toward chasing after immortality. Ie his original crime is not that big compare to the numerous crime performed upon each of his death: killing an unrelated person to resurrect himself.
I always imagined that even if the gods wanted to destroy him, they couldn't have. Whatever was done, he was outside the natural order of the universe, the death of others being something that needed to be done as the planes attempted to balance the fact that there was something that simply did not belong. Also, I always felt like he was actually involved in the origin of the Blood War, and that was part of his crime. Not that I have anything to base that on, that I can remember. Not sure how I came up with it, but it stuck.

Was it ever hinted which side in the Blood War he will have to fight for?
It's not even covered that he fights for any side. At the end, The Nameless One is fully reconstituted, and could easily rival major gods, with a life experience of countless lifetimes. While it's possible to interpret him walking out into the blood war as actually partaking in it, remember that The Nameless One sought immortality in order to reverse what had been done. In most cases, I cannot see him partaking in the blood war on either side. If he's doing anything, he's walking out there to stop it.

I now want to see a game that sees Annah, Fall-from-Grace and Morte going into the lower planes and the blood war, trying to find him again, as per Fall-from-Grace's promise (and Annah's love, which burns hotter than the fires of Elysium), only to find The Nameless One fighting a two-front war and winning.
Ironically, this is terrible, because it's tearing the planes themselves apart and getting the higher planes involved, becoming a tale of balance in all things and how one cannot be unaligned.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,829
Someone has gathered the various facts about TNO's history throughout the game and has combined them into this. It may shed some light, though of course the original crime is never actually stated. Also MCA probably didn't really get Fairfax's question, since it was about TNO's original crime before he became immortal and started having incarnations. Or he just didn't remember and dodged it :)

found in: http://bootstrike.com/Torment/Online/tti4.php

History of the Nameless One

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The following was found on a sheet of vellum shuffled in among a manuscript of Candrian's On Planar Travel bought in the Clerk's Ward. It is a history, believed written by one of his companions, of the man known by various names, but most commonly as the "Nameless One" in Sigil.

What of the original incarnation? There was an advisor, whose lying advice wrought betrayal. Hints of a contract signed. A crime was committed, one so awful the acts of all future incarnations are as nothing compared to it. The crime itself is unknown, save the implication that the planes are still slowly dying because of it.

He sought help of the night hag Ravel Puzzlewell, to grant him immortality, so he could escape his punishment and perhaps atone for his crime. And for love of him, Ravel granted his request, stripping his mortality from him. But a dreadful price was paid, since although the death of the body was no longer permanent, it did injure the mind, and memories were forgotten. Thus were born many incarnations, each starting with only fragments of memory of past existences.

There is also a sliver of another memory of Ravel, which seems to tie in with the myth of the three wishes. In the myth a man wishes for the awful knowledge of who he is. Perhaps this refers to a time when the original incarnation realized the full extent of his crime, and what the punishment must be?

There are only fragments from the many incarnations which followed. General of armies, a mage trained by a puissant sorcerer, a bloody-handed criminal chased by the mercykillers, a thief reduced to skulking beneath the streets of Sigil. Wandering many planes, acts of cruelty and kindness, chaos and law. One constant was the symbol of torment on his body, which drew other tormented souls to him. And many to their doom as well, no doubt.

At some point an incarnation which knew of the Fortress of Regrets, more accurately the Fortress of His Regrets, had a conversation with Trias the deva in which he described what he knew of the fortress.

One incarnation lead a revolt in what was then the prime ward, opening all the gates in the ward to the lower planes using an artifact known as the Shadow-Sorcelled Key. The Lady of Pain finally crushed the revolt. Could his scarring be explained by having fallen under the Lady's shadow? Could even an immortal survive that?

Several centuries ago Ravel attempted to open all the portals in Sigil. Whether it was to prove she could solve any puzzle, or as she later claimed to free the Lady from her cage, the Lady mazed her, removing a source of knowledge from access by later incarnations.

More than 200 years ago an incarnation was a member of the Sensates. Apparently this was a happy time for him, but he disappeared, with only rumors of his murder following in his wake.

At some point after this was the time of the 'practical' incarnation, who, but for one, came closest to defeating his enemy. A cold, ruthless incarnation. He kept detailed notes, and had tattooed instructions on his back to future incarnations. He tricked Pharod into a quest for an object he could not be bothered to find himself, and imprisoned the mercykiller Vhailor in a cell only he could release him from merely on the chance that Vhailor's abilities might one day be of use.

He commissioned a dream machine from Xeno Xander, to force the dreams which he could not have. He also commissioned from the Godsmen a portal to reach Ravel in her maze. In the end, he did not have time to make use of either item.

He attempted to thwart his unknown enemy with false bodies, by hiding on outer planes, even building a tomb which was both a trap for his enemy, and a repository of knowledge for future incarnations.

Nothing he could devise could throw off his enemy, so he decided to seek his enemy in his lair. To that end he gathered companions to himself.

He sought knowledge from the pillar of skulls in Avernus, and freed one skull from the pillar who he named Morte. Then he nearly killed the skull when it could not answer his questions. Unfortunately Morte still cannot wholly escape his past, and embroiders the truth. Thus he is not a very reliable source.

He tracked down a githzerai named Dak'kon in Limbo, because of the Karach blade he wields. He saved his life and gained his sworn service by cynically offering the words of Zerthimon. Words which meant nothing to this incarnation.

He enlisted a blind archer, Xachariah, one who could still see by other means, and whose arrows always found his enemies' hearts.

He professed a false love for Deionarra, so he could bind her and make use of her abilities.

Finally, a little more than fifty years ago, he and his companions traveled to the Fortress of Regrets, to scout his enemy, his Mortality. The first part of his plan went well. Deionarra was allowed to die, her love for him anchoring her to the fortress in death, and her powers gaining her insight into the fortress that no other could have provided.

Otherwise it was a disaster. He and his companions were separated. Dak'kon and Morte managed to escape, although wounded in faith and courage. Xachariah and the 'practical' incarnation died, although their bodies returned to Sigil. Possibly his enemy, after defeating him, transported him back to Sigil before killing him for fear that his dying in the fortress would be the end of himself as well?

What was likely the next incarnation was insane, quite likely because of his experiences in the Fortress of Regret. In his insanity he viewed his other incarnations as his enemies, as body-thieves. Although only extant for a few years, he was not unclever.

He destroyed his previous incarnation's laboriously constructed journals, a great loss, hardly balanced by the maunderings he inscribed in his previous incarnation's trapped tomb, and his own rambling journal. He also tried to burn the legacy left by this previous incarnation with Iannis the Advocate, but failed.

He left many traps for his other incarnations, the most devious of which was a sensory stone in the Festhall with two experiences, one overlaying another, the second a snare which only another incarnation could trigger.

He kept a journal, written in the tongue of Uyo, a tongue he guaranteed no one would be able to speak by murdering his teacher, Fin Andlye. This was not enough protection, so he required opening a puzzle box to access its contents, and trapped it besides.

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

In fact, this incarnation viewed anyone who seemed to recognize him as a threat, and threats were all too easily eliminated. Even being mazed by the Lady did not stop his rampage, since he managed to escape his prison. His murderous fury was finally quenched when he met unexpected resistance from one of his victims, and plummeted to his death. This was roughly fifty years ago.

Of the next few incarnations little is known, although one was a powerful mage, and tutored an apprentice named Ignus who loved fire.

Finally there is the last incarnation, who awoke in the Dustmen's Mortuary, the one whose memory is not veiled at death. Curiously, the person who found this incarnation's body and took it to the Mortuary was drawn to the remains. How drawn? Was it Fell? His enemy? Possibly even the mark of torment, drawing another tormented soul even in death?

This last incarnation set out on a quest to backtrack figures from his past, a path which eventually led to his enemy, his Mortality. This was mirrored by his enemy's desire that he follows the path, so that remaining clues to his enemy's location could be eliminated.

He fought Ravel, Trias and his Mortality. He also faced three of his former incarnations. Interesting examples of the Rule of Three.

He and his companions defeated his Mortality, and undid the separation which made him immortal so long ago. His long delayed punishment caught up with him, and he was sentenced to serve in the Blood Wars.

You should add this as a mod component to your mod. It would be a scroll item located on one of TNOs just before the end game fight, you would need to pickpocket / kill them to get it or, shit, leave it sitting somewhere in the corner of the map.
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
Old AF thread and all, but I just introduced a kid to PST (blew their mind), and was looking around TV Tropes. Turns out whoever wrote the page there doesn't know what it was that the original Nameless One did. I thought more folks have figured it out. It's on one of the sensory stones, and the cannons in the Fortress of Regrets hint at it strongly.
 

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