World of Whorecraft: Battle for Asseroth

[Avellion]

I will say that I do miss those days when normal dungeons were challenging. It made clearing them, just so much satisfying. Nowadays, clearing any dungeon comes with no satisfaction, despite being rewarded with a guaranteed blue item that may be an upgrade from what you currently have. I dont use heirlooms.

And yes, WoW is not as good as it used to be, in vanilla WoW, it at least felt like an adventure. The levelling experience was still somewhat engrossing, as opposed to the "I just want to get this over with" experience I now have with it. The world feels extremely small, due to all the fast travel and funneling of players through content, as well as the fact that you leave the zones before you get a feel for them. Levelling up feels meaningless and unrewarding. But despite that, for all the decline WoW had during Cataclysm, one thing is still certain, for all the decline it is not as decline ridden as its competition.

SWTOR: Very little group play, dungeons are CoD Linear, only 4 party members, due to the ways zones are constructed, imperials and republicans approaching eachother is extremely low to the point of being nil.
Guild Wars 2: No need to communicate ever, no roles in combat means that everyone does the same thing, berserker everywhere. The game also reminds me of The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion in many ways; fast travel, level scaling, level scaled loot, repetitive environments, combat involves mashing very few buttons (perhaps only 1), attacks feel extremely weak with extremely little feedback if any, combat is built trading blows around dpsing down the enemy before he dpses down you (at least WoW has several skills that go beyond the boring dps), false marketing, spammy combat and game being afraid to punish players.
WildStar: This game was just the most banal, uninspired crap I have ever played. It tried too hard to please you.
ESO: I didnt play this turd, but the RPGcodex thread on this game was very amusing.

WoW may not compare to its glory days or the mmorpg genre during its golden age, but at the same time, compared to the steaming smelly piles of decline ridden feces that is its competition, WoW is all right. In fact, I would argue that maybe aside from RIFT, is the only competent themepark mmo out there.

'

I personally liked DDO (though they have been streamlining and dumbing down like WoW over the last couple of years as well). Of all the games out there, it still has a fairly complex development system. Not as good as it was, but still far more involved than WoW. While DDO doesn't have the flare of boss fights that WoW has, the content can be very difficult and challenging for both solo and group play.

For a while, I was enjoying EQ2, but they really turned that game into garbage. Seriously, all of that content, all of that depth and they turned it into a yet another (rush to end game) focus with easy content and a participation trophy around every corner. My friend and I had gone back to that not too long ago (we used to enjoy the difficulty in content) only to find out that we could duo dungeons 8-9 levels above us without any effort. It was so ridiculous that we kept pushing the limits until we hit like 12-15 levels above us with the restricting factor being that the mechanics to hit such a higher level mob reduced out success to near zero, but aside from that, we could heal through anything the mobs had to offer.

I tried SWTOR as well and one of the things that really urked me was the fact that they game leveled so damn fast. You could tell they did a last minute change on leveling speed just before release because you couldn't keep the crafting system anywhere near your level. It destroyed the entire middle game and yet again attended to the idea that everyone should disregard all of the effort and work put into the content before endgame and simply rush to the end.

I stayed away from GW2, tried Wildstar, thought it was bland, ESO beta was a big no.

The Secret World wasn't bad (though the combat system was destroyed by the WoW mentality demanding a holy trinity) and so it was only good for the story progression.

Rift had a lot of promise on release. It was old school difficulty in the dungeons. My friends and I had a blast running that content. It was extremely hard and refreshing, but they also caved to the WoW mentality dumbing down all the content and making everything ridiculously easy. I think the final straw for us was when my friend and I duo'd an expert 2 dungeon. No point in playing when the game gets that stupidly easy.

MMOs for the most part are dead and I don't see that changing. The problem is that the majority of the player base wants Farmville, an entertainment simulator... not a game. A game means they could lose, they might have failure and they might have to put effort to succeed. That just isn't going to cut it for the crowd today, why... it just wouldn't be "fun"! /boggle

So they ruined RIFT too... godfuckingdammit.

And yes, I used to enjoy EQ2 as well, until they shat all over it, making the thing piss easy.

 

[Xenich]

And my last question would be: Would you say there is hope in any future releases?
Thank you for your time.

Hard question to answer as I am extremely cynical and so that biases my outlook.

It is possible, but the problem I think is much deeper than just gaming, its a societal thing. Gaming systems in general have been streamlined. Not just video games, but pen and paper too. Detailed and obsessive stat/mechanic focused systems are considered outdated and overly burdened by today's gaming generation. Simplistic is their desire and they have built an entire generational mindset around it. You have heard the comments like... "simple, but complex system", "easy to learn, difficult to master", etc... these are all sale words to try and justify shallow systems. Until depth, complexity, vastness and a desire for difficulty/effort become mainstream again, you will continue to get these shallow MMOs.

As I said, I am cynical, I don't think it will happen, but I would be happy to be proven wrong. Problem is, every time someone goes off on an attempt to make a difficult game, they do it for all the wrong reasons (ie they do it from a Furor perspective) and think hardcore in terms of an FPS adrenaline junkie, not concept and core difficulty of systems through complex interaction, design, and development.

 

[kingcomrade]

What ground mount should I use? Flying mounts apparently work. I have one from an ICC achievement from way back when that I'm proud of, but it's animations on the ground are kind of bad. I have talbuks because I grinded to get them. Argent warhorse, which I got from the tournament place, which I kind of like. The idea is to maximize my superiority to the other players. So, earlier, and rarer. i have the turtle from fishing but it's slow on the ground. I have the mammoths from Wrath.

 

[Metro]

You're a bit fat scrub so it doesn't matter.

 

[Caim]

What ground mount should I use? Flying mounts apparently work. I have one from an ICC achievement from way back when that I'm proud of, but it's animations on the ground are kind of bad. I have talbuks because I grinded to get them. Argent warhorse, which I got from the tournament place, which I kind of like. The idea is to maximize my superiority to the other players. So, earlier, and rarer. i have the turtle from fishing but it's slow on the ground. I have the mammoths from Wrath.

If the ICC one's the dragon, don't use it. They are huge as fuck and completely cover vendors up. Talbuks have prestige, but getting Exalted with the faction you get them from is part of an achievement you get a title from so they're a bit more common. Argent Warhorse has plenty of prestige, turtle is shit on the ground indeed and mammoths just mean you have a fuckton of cash.

I'd say go with the Argent Warhorse, unless I got your ICC comment wrong and you have Invincible: in that case use him.

 

[Xenich]

When playing a game that can be played indefinitely, it makes sense to skip the tutorial (that's all leveling really is) and get to the real deal (the one you will be engaged in for months) as soon as possible.

This got me to thinking a bit. I have seen this argument quite often, more commonly these days than in the past and I started considering its position. If leveling is a formality, a "tutorial", then why bother with it at all? Why have a leveling/point/progression system? If "end game" is all that matters, there really shouldn't be any at all. All leveling and linear progression systems should be discarded right? Then, you don't have to have levels of gear, just different powers of it. Your character development can then simply be choosing various specs and focuses. No large world to muddle through, no leveled content, no boring quests, just "end game".

Thing is, the more I think about this line of thinking and how to achieve its goals, I kept ending up with an action FPS game with no real progression based development and nothing but large group and competitive scenarios. It seems to me if that was my goal, I wouldn't bother playing MMO's, but games like ARMA, CoD, and Battlefield. /shrug

 

[Angthoron]

So like... Um. I like this expansion. Technical issues aside, this is the first one since WotLK I actually am enjoying properly, and not because "well it's good in company" and so on. I feel it being a very strange thing to say, but Blizzard did a genuinely good job with the story and the world.

Even the animations. Finally, the animations aren't the Machinima Beginner levels again. Lots of proper touched-up pre-renders. Good stuff. A genuine surprise, considering I thought I'd just try it out of habit and then unsubscribe and never return again.

Sure, it's still the same old theme park, but damn, they spent some effort on it this time.

Also, FUCKING garrisons. Fucking Farmville. Fuck you Blizzard, it's addictive. Fucking fuckers.

 

[Xenich]

So like... Um. I like this expansion. Technical issues aside, this is the first one since WotLK I actually am enjoying properly, and not because "well it's good in company" and so on. I feel it being a very strange thing to say, but Blizzard did a genuinely good job with the story and the world.

Even the animations. Finally, the animations aren't the Machinima Beginner levels again. Lots of proper touched-up pre-renders. Good stuff. A genuine surprise, considering I thought I'd just try it out of habit and then unsubscribe and never return again.

Sure, it's still the same old theme park, but damn, they spent some effort on it this time.

Also, FUCKING garrisons. Fucking Farmville. Fuck you Blizzard, it's addictive. Fucking fuckers.

The shallow character development system is killing me though. Seriously, I used to love messing with different builds and trying to min/max out new styles of play. This forced development path is fucking killing me.

 

[Revenant]

Actually, I think the current talent system (pick one out of three every 15 levels) allows more viable builds than the old talent-tree, in which everyone just had the same cookie cutter build. Now all the talents are somewhat balanced, most of them allow for a distinct yet still efficient gameplay.

 

[Angthoron]

The shallow character development system is killing me though. Seriously, I used to love messing with different builds and trying to min/max out new styles of play. This forced development path is fucking killing me.

Actually, I think the current talent system (pick one out of three every 15 levels) allows more viable builds than the old talent-tree, in which everyone just had the same cookie cutter build. Now all the talents are somewhat balanced, most of them allow for a distinct yet still efficient gameplay.

I'm kinda on the fence here. The best talent point builds were in Vanilla anyway, when you could build some really weird and unbalanced shit out of all the three trees. BC onwards, and even a bit earlier, they started goading people into "proper" roles and it pretty much killed the point of the trees for me just there. What if I didn't want to go all the way to Repentance? what if I wanted to build a Reckbomb spec? Oh, I see, I can't. Okay. So, what can I choose from? Oh, 3 points in Blessings and 2 points in passive damage this tier? AWESOME. What's that? I can't even double-dip into Prot anymore? Thanks Blizz!

The new talent, um, branches? Twigs? at least offer decent distinction, I'm genuinely stumped at what to go into at L100 on my ret paladin. Seal twisting sounds awesome, but is it too much micro? 20s refresh window, not sure about it. Maybe macro it to hell.

On the other hand, for levelling, the new system is SHIT. Yeah, you get skills at regular intervals, but you get more or less no sense of progression. Add the endless gear shower and the impressive XP stream and it's really a "Why is this having XPs again?" kinda thing.

Fortunately for me, I have just two characters I regularly play and upkeep at max, and have no hints of altoholism.


Oh yeah, and speaking of specs and talent trees... The fucking GARRISON system has more C&C than the entire character system. It's really pretty cool, all the awesome buildings I want to have, and all the limited space to put them into. And then there's some minor C&C with Outposts, too:

http://www.ultimatewowguide.com/blog/how-to-choose-garrison-outpost-for-leveling/7813/

 

[Xenich]

Actually, I think the current talent system (pick one out of three every 15 levels) allows more viable builds than the old talent-tree, in which everyone just had the same cookie cutter build. Now all the talents are somewhat balanced, most of them allow for a distinct yet still efficient gameplay.

How on earth? Now you are forced into a direction and handed the skills you can have. There is no choice anymore. I am EXACTLY the same as you because we are both forced into the EXACT same line of focus as everyone else. You as a DPS focused class are the same as every other of your class, same for tank, same for healing. I remember people calling out "cookie cutter" with WoW, but that to be honest was for the idiots who couldn't think past rolling their face over the keyboard. If all there was left was "cookie cutter" builds, then how in the hell did someone come up with the next new and powerful cookie cutter build? It was because they were busy paying attention to the skills and experimenting with different approaches while every other idiot out there was simply cut and pasting the fad of the day.

My friend played a feral druid when everyone thought they were crap, pointless, etc... (way back in the day) and he tweaked the talent choices, applied various gear to them and was able to do things that blew away people. That is, until the crowds of idiots "cookie cuttered" those types of builds. Though... it didn't matter as over time, he found new things, improved on new concepts while others simply copy and pasted.

These days, you are the same, no choices, no exploration of abilities, no adjusting with gear and focus, nope... that would be too much work. Why... the cure to having some excel over others is to make everyone the same, to make everyone forced to the same sub fucking standard of play. You know... because we can't have the witless idiots who can't figure out how to character build being outpaced by those who can.

WoW's character development system is that of a preschool system built for kiddies who want to feel good about the fact that the only skill required to succeed is button smashing.

No offense meant on this as this is a sore subject to me. Just as you see people upset about the continuous dumbing down, streamlining, etc... of cRPGs, well... the same is happening with MMORPGs. These systems are not better, they are "streamlined" and take all forms of thought and effort from the player in order to appeal to "ease" and "accessibility". Fuck that, and fuck them!

 

[Hoaxmetal]

In recognition of the difficulties so many of you ran into when trying to play over the first few days, we're adding five days’ worth of extra time to every subscription in the Americas, Oceania, and Europe that was active as of Friday, November 14.

 

[Metro]

So like... Um. I like this expansion. Technical issues aside, this is the first one since WotLK I actually am enjoying properly, and not because "well it's good in company" and so on. I feel it being a very strange thing to say, but Blizzard did a genuinely good job with the story and the world.

Even the animations. Finally, the animations aren't the Machinima Beginner levels again. Lots of proper touched-up pre-renders. Good stuff. A genuine surprise, considering I thought I'd just try it out of habit and then unsubscribe and never return again.

Sure, it's still the same old theme park, but damn, they spent some effort on it this time.

Also, FUCKING garrisons. Fucking Farmville. Fuck you Blizzard, it's addictive. Fucking fuckers.

Hey, breh, there are some awesome Facebook games you might enjoy.

 

[Angthoron]

So like... Um. I like this expansion. Technical issues aside, this is the first one since WotLK I actually am enjoying properly, and not because "well it's good in company" and so on. I feel it being a very strange thing to say, but Blizzard did a genuinely good job with the story and the world.

Even the animations. Finally, the animations aren't the Machinima Beginner levels again. Lots of proper touched-up pre-renders. Good stuff. A genuine surprise, considering I thought I'd just try it out of habit and then unsubscribe and never return again.

Sure, it's still the same old theme park, but damn, they spent some effort on it this time.

Also, FUCKING garrisons. Fucking Farmville. Fuck you Blizzard, it's addictive. Fucking fuckers.

Hey, breh, there are some awesome Facebook games you might enjoy.

Really? Got a list of favourites?

 

[Metro]

Mr. Muffin's Funtime Bakery
My Little Pony Friendship is Magic Tax Wiz
Betty Lou's Social Justice Lemonade Stand
Warlords of Draenor

 

[Angthoron]

Oh cool, I didn't know you liked social justice and ponies too. Let's hug and frolic in the meadows or w/e ponies do. Maybe we can also be facebook friends, you'll send me invitations to your funtime bakery and I will trade you muffins.

 

[Avellion]

How on earth? Now you are forced into a direction and handed the skills you can have. There is no choice anymore. I am EXACTLY the same as you because we are both forced into the EXACT same line of focus as everyone else.

Players have been forced into a certain direction since TBC. Sure, you did have the skills before. But at the same time there was for most of the part not a reason to use most of them (though, as a druid, I did use several balance and resto spells in my arsenal while tanking, capable of switching out of bear form to innervate one of the healers during a raid and switch back without taking a hit in caster form).

You as a DPS focused class are the same as every other of your class, same for tank, same for healing. I remember people calling out "cookie cutter" with WoW, but that to be honest was for the idiots who couldn't think past rolling their face over the keyboard. If all there was left was "cookie cutter" builds, then how in the hell did someone come up with the next new and powerful cookie cutter build? It was because they were busy paying attention to the skills and experimenting with different approaches while every other idiot out there was simply cut and pasting the fad of the day.

My friend played a feral druid when everyone thought they were crap, pointless, etc... (way back in the day) and he tweaked the talent choices, applied various gear to them and was able to do things that blew away people. That is, until the crowds of idiots "cookie cuttered" those types of builds. Though... it didn't matter as over time, he found new things, improved on new concepts while others simply copy and pasted.

Yes people are idiots. I never bothered with talent tree guides myself, but that one time I did check mine, mine was nearly identical to the cookie cutter build, albeit with a few slight differences to suit my style better.

These days, you are the same, no choices, no exploration of abilities, no adjusting with gear and focus, nope... that would be too much work. Why... the cure to having some excel over others is to make everyone the same, to make everyone forced to the same sub fucking standard of play. You know... because we can't have the witless idiots who can't figure out how to character build being outpaced by those who can.

WoW's character development system is that of a preschool system built for kiddies who want to feel good about the fact that the only skill required to succeed is button smashing.

Except not really, the nice thing about the new talents is that for most of the part, the three talent choices are roughly equally viable, with some faring better in some fights over others. Instead of chosing +30% damage for thorns vs being able to cast the main nuke spell 20% faster, the choices this time around are significantly more balanced around each other. While the old talent system was essentially minefield with the mines already being revealed to anyone with the slightest bit of common sense, the new system allows for much more choice and variety between builds.

Some talents in hte new system are utter shit however, like Chi Torpedo (which is only good if you are having a really good day and people line up exactly how you want them too or if you are Roleplaying M. Bison).

 

[Keshik]

Getting a zone-unique ability has been pretty fun, Gorgrond's was useless (didn't really like that zone, pain to navigate and also the first time we collided with Horde, gankfest). The mount in Nagrand is essential, can't get away from or properly engage gankers without it.

Heh, for the story part I wonder why we didn't blow up the Portal on our side, also if mages can open portals to our time I wonder what was keeping Khadgar et al from returning home after BtDP's conclusion.

 

[Wilian]

Heh, for the story part I wonder why we didn't blow up the Portal on our side, also if mages can open portals to our time I wonder what was keeping Khadgar et al from returning home after BtDP's conclusion.

We blew up portal from our side, in the Warcraft II. It didn't work because remnants of the rift remained open until it was again expanded open by Ner'zhul in Warcraft II expansion

 

[Keshik]

True, I guess there's something sspecial about our end of it (we blow up the portal on the other side this time and that seems to work).

 

[Wilian]

True, I guess there's something sspecial about our end of it (we blow up the portal on the other side this time and that seems to work).

This time around the portal was being kept open by the channeled spell by abusing power of the Shadow Council and we set them free in the Tanaan opening.

 

[Keshik]

Well, meant there's something unique about our side that we can't blow it up or shut it down for some reason so we have to go through. I am guessing we'll face down Kil'jaeden again this expansion or maybe Archimonde (or both) based on the Shadow Council becoming the major protagonists as we smack around the Iron Horde early on (and Green Jesus kills Garrosh).

 

[Wilian]

Well this time it probably had to be channeled to be kept open since it's from entirely another timeline, not just simple thing.

 

[Xenich]

Except not really, the nice thing about the new talents is that for most of the part, the three talent choices are roughly equally viable, with some faring better in some fights over others. Instead of chosing +30% damage for thorns vs being able to cast the main nuke spell 20% faster, the choices this time around are significantly more balanced around each other. While the old talent system was essentially minefield with the mines already being revealed to anyone with the slightest bit of common sense, the new system allows for much more choice and variety between builds.

Some talents in hte new system are utter shit however, like Chi Torpedo (which is only good if you are having a really good day and people line up exactly how you want them too or if you are Roleplaying M. Bison).

I don't see what you are talking about. Of the choices you have, you have 1) Pick your role and 2) make a choice between 3 talents every so many levels. Now it may be more "balanced", I am not arguing that, in fact I would agree that streamlining would result an easier time of balancing between the classes and it is probably the main reason they did it, not for any real attempt to create a better system. Past that, there is no real choice, no experimentation as you are essentially the same regardless of your choice. Now I guess it also depends what version of the trees you are comparing. I think it was around Cata that they revamped the trees and it really limited development choice and selection (ie killed multi-tree builds) as prior to that you could really create some interesting builds by going down the various trees and maximizing various focuses. If you compare to that, well... this is a severely dumbed down system and while it may be more "balanced", the idea that people were all playing the same thing back then isn't a lacking of the system, but rather idiocy of the player base. As I said though, they followed the fad until someone else found a new combination to which the idiot crowd followed that. The difference is that now, there really isn't any point as every choice is basically the same. There are not distinct play styles and builds, just meaningless choices resulting in the same basic function and ability as every other person of that role focus. There really is no comparison to old WoW trees.

Though, I see the reason for not having complex trees anymore. There is no need for character development of any note as the content is all pretty much the same. You run in, you group DPS/HPS and rush off to your next targets. Gone are the days of clever uses of a number of varying skills, of CC, of interesting combinations of abilities. There isn't a need, the content itself is bland, pointless, and easily suited for simplistic button smashing. /shrug

 

[Wilian]

Choice was always illusion and the earliel you go more it's down to lack of understanding the system and presented information. After a certain point ( MC, which with best notions is like LFR raid ) you always went for pre-determined builds because they simply mathematically were better.

Anecdotal "my friend who was durid did this and that and it impressed people" ever came only down to a fact that he played in shit company to begin with to make such impressions. I played Ret Paladin and a rogue. I was famed for being good enough ret paladin to challenge people in DPS but it wasn't because of amazing builds or skills, it was because everyone else fucking sucked and I knew how to play the game. Further down as playing rogue it became more apparent when I was leading meters not by some 3-5% but 10-25%

If you ever had a feral druid friend who amazed anyone with his build or DPS, it's a good sign of "fuck that dude played with scrubs".

Now it can be argued that early game supported more inventive and hybrid builds better and that's true. It really did because you could counter normal instance mobs and pulls in many different ways and it always was great. Hybrid classes and such always shined most in the pre-raid enviroment for the sheer toolkit they had.

But when you got into the raid end game, bullshitting ends there.