Betrayals and dead ends

[JarlFrank]

So, imagine some guy approaches you and asks you to kill a certain person because that person is totally evil and a serial killer/thief/spy or something. The guy appears to be really quite friendly and trustworthy and he manages to convince you. So, you go and kill that person, collect your reward, but later on you find out that the person was completely innocent and the guy only wanted to eliminate him for personal reasons. And he seemed so totally trustworthy and honest! Of course, if you had investigated a bit and actually talked to your victim before mindlessly accepting the quest and killing him, you might've found out the truth.

Different scenario: you're looking for an ancient artefact. Some oracle woman claims to know where it is and sends you to do several quests for her or asks you to pay a large sum for the information. After recieving the coordinates and going there, it turns out she scammed you. The artefact isn't there, in fact there's not even a dungeon. You've just got cheated out of a lot of money/did work for information that turned out to be wrong. Of course, there are other ways to obtain the true coordinates of the artefact-containing dungeon, but this one was a dead end.

Most players would be discouraged by things like that. NPCs lying to you or using you for their own goals is a big no-no for many game designers (I remember Ken Rolston of Morrowind fame said that some time ago), but I believe it to be a good method for making the gameworld more realistic (AND DARK AND GRITTAY OH YEAH) and to keep the player on his toes when he doesn't know whom to trust.

Thoughts?

 

[GarfunkeL]

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=46997

I like it. Especially if the player can avoid it through being clever or comprehensive or inquisitive or curious or I'm running out of synonyms and similes but you get the point.

 

[chzr]

1st example: would be good if you have an option to actually find out the 'truth', but only through deeper investigation or even by accident.
So that he really looks like a good guy, without leaving a feeling it may be a trap (which would be obvious after 1st sentence in today's grimdark rpgs).

2nd: similar to this, someone should be able to deny/confirm if something like this exists, but it should be rumors and no exact information.
Let's say, you ask one guy and he tells you that she's totally right (probably some believer) and a second one will tell you it's bullshit, however, without any hint that one of these guys is actually right.


Simply, it should be possible to get screwed rather easily, but if you are really paying attention/using brain (by thinking, not just checking journal and so on), you should be able to find out.

 

[Erebus]

Good ideas. NPCs in CRPGs are much too often trustworthy (and when they're not, either the player can discover it without any active effort or the misdirection is part of the main plot). PCs are just begging to be manipulated and many NPCs should realize that. (Even leaving intentional misdirection aside, there's always the possibility that the NPC is wrong or blinded by his feelings.)

 

[oldmanpaco]

The key is making sure untrustworthy NPCs are sprinkled throughout the game. If only one, out of 100 npcs, is lying then it feels like the designers are cheating. If 10% of npc lie then it keeps you on your guard.

Also the dishonest npcs need to have a 'tell' that the PC can see.

 

[laclongquan]

2nd idea is particularly good twist of the game if you manage rewards of the gopher quest carefully. Like quest 1a, 1b, 1c give you some ring of infravision/UVG/see-in-the-dark ability, antidote, stone-to-flesh scrolls which dont have that many use in gameworld but the real location of that secret dungeon got good use out of it. like a dark cavern filled with poisonous snakes and magical basilisks.

You need to make the player get frustrated at 1st quest, but later on when they get access to secret dungeon they facepalm and tell themselves "Ah, but that old hag is not so fakey after all."

It's one good way to design early quest will low reward yet memorable to player. Of course if the later secret dungeon is oh so alike to other it's losing purpose, ne?

 

[JarlFrank]

It's one good way to design early quest will low reward yet memorable to player. Of course if the later secret dungeon is oh so alike to other it's losing purpose, ne?

Yeah, well, that's a problem of too many RPGs recycling the same fucking dungeon design over and over again (hello Oblivion). If you actually put some thought into design and make each location unique (if not visually, then at least with unique encounter design and backstory) and add almost no filler, it'll end up being a much more memorable experience.

And to everyone who says there needs to be a way to see who's lying to you or an alternative to find the truth if one quest leads to a dead end: yes, of course, I even mentioned that in my examples. If your dialogue skills or your intelligence is high enough, or if you ask a lot of questions, you'll find out.

 

[J1M]

Mysteries of Westgate has several characters that try to scam you. The key is to train the player with an early example of a lying NPC so they know such a thing is possible.

 

[Phelot]

It's a fine idea so long as it is implemented correctly... but that can be said about most things. But I think it's realistic to expect it in a game. There should be skill checks of course "sense motive" or intimidating an answer out of them.

Larel from TOEE was kind of fun in this respect.

As well, some random events could also occur in the would be duped PC's favor by having the PC and scammer run into an old enemy or something of the scammer.

 

[Bluebottle]

1st example is great. Nothing wrong at all with a good betrayal. It might feel a little flat if there was nothing the player could do with the information (confront the guy, or take revenge in some other way), but generally, a good example of how deceiving the player can open up more gameplay opportunites.

The second example, I'm a bit less sure of. Now it's not that there's anything wrong with being led up the garden path by an NPC, but that particular example just seems to end a little bit suddenly, with the player looking for a dungeon that may or may no exist. The lack of resolution would be the kicker here, not necessarily the being deceived. It might not be the most realistic approach, but I think such things should generally run to some sort of outcome, even if it isn't a good one for the player.

 

[visions]

Different scenario: you're looking for an ancient artefact. Some oracle woman claims to know where it is and sends you to do several quests for her or asks you to pay a large sum for the information. After recieving the coordinates and going there, it turns out she scammed you. The artefact isn't there, in fact there's not even a dungeon. You've just got cheated out of a lot of money/did work for information that turned out to be wrong. Of course, there are other ways to obtain the true coordinates of the artefact-containing dungeon, but this one was a dead end.

I like this one, although I think it wouldn't be used in a modern game that's not an indie title, for a fear of confusing and pissing off a large portion of players. It's actually funny in a way I think, npc's completely screwing the player over.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I like stuff like that. Also, one think that I have thought about is modular NPCs. Basically, a person with the same name, looks and locations could have 3-5 alternative personalities, one of which would activate on each play-through.

 

[ElectricOtter]

Geneforge 5 did this pretty well, sort of established the "trust no one" angle. You meet Denna in the inn in Mera. She wants you to jack some shit from the sage in Haria-Kel. In return, she will give you some information about your past. Did the quest and everything, she told me where the papers were. Papers were blank and she had already left town FUCKING BITCH you can get revenge later though

 

[JarlFrank]

We plan to have quite a few NPCs in our game whom you cannot trust and who'll try to fuck you over for their own gain, so the player should learn that he can't trust everyone pretty early on.

What do you think about party members betraying you? Like Yoshimo in BG2?

 

[soggie]

Party member betrayal is painful. Extremely so, especially when you spend enough time decking that follower out with equipment. Worse, what would happen if you had that follower mule quest items? Extra logic would need to be written to handle it.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

What do you think about party members betraying you? Like Yoshimo in BG2?

If we're forced to take them with us it's crap (exception is if we don't expect the betrayal). But if they aren't forced on us and we don't expect it - then I think it's very effective.

 

[JarlFrank]

In our case, the character wouldn't betray you as in "I've worked for the enemy all along! Now die!", but more like... well, mislead you for his own reasons, but in the end he'll still stay with you.
Hard to explain without spoilering the whole character. Also, there won't be any forced party members because that's just stupid. You can solo the game if you want, and some party members might only be recruitable before a certain event so you might completely miss them.

 

[soggie]

Or, how about a NPC who deteriorates after time, slowly descending into the darkness.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

What do you think about party members betraying you? Like Yoshimo in BG2?

Good if it's a different NPC in each playthough.

 

[laclongquan]

If they leave your party and taking quest items with them, if the game is programed so that you can track them down to bargain/trick/kill them for the items it can become a sub-quest hunting game.

 

[Dire Roach]

Scenario 1: Oblivion did it with the dark BROtherhood line of quests, though of course there's no chance to find out the truth before carrying out the murders. I would imagine any game released nowadays that has this type of situation allows you to hunt down and kill every "bad guy" who deceived you in order to truly complete the quest line.

Scenario 2: I'm not sure if a game has done this before, but assuming there's no chance to meet the deceiver ever again once you've reached the quest destination, the developers would probably put in some sort of consolation prize for completing it anyway. Either you get some XP since you "learned from your mistake" and/or you encounter something else of value, like the phat loot left from the last unlucky adventurer who was tricked into the same trap. If there was a chance to meet the deceiver again, then the developers would make it so that it would also mark the beginning of a new quest to hunt down and kill the NPC who deceived you.