Gabe Newell on customer-based pricing

[sgc_meltdown]

hello and welcome to the codex forums

that post was facetious and not a rallying call for interdiction on well supported strategy products made without compromising depth for accessibility or competitive pricing as it were

please enjoy your stay

 

[gp1628]

hello and welcome to the codex forums

that post was facetious and not a rallying call for interdiction on well supported strategy products made without compromising depth for accessibility or competitive pricing as it were

please enjoy your stay

Well arguing pricing would be outside of my area. People go to college and get marketing degrees for that kindof thing.

Besides its been argued on the Dom3 forums extensively. The official response seems to break down to "small publisher with no price breaks on mass production" and "no real need to". So as long as they can get the price and it is worth it, then things seem ok.

I have seen the argument that Illwinter (the 2-man development team that created the game) possibly COULD switch now from a small give-anyone-a-chance publicize-and-distribute developer to one of the bigger advertise-and-shelfware companies which would make cheaper versions available. They do have a sufficiently large player base to get into one. But apparently they arent interested.

Btw the distrib company (Shrapnel) does have 10% discounts for students and military. Maybe that can help

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Choice of pricing is an unpredictable beast to be sure. I've seen more than a few accounts of games selling better because they bumped their prices from ten to fifteen dollars because of how the amount pricing changes how the customer perceives a game's quality.

 

[Jasede]

Wait, so this Gabe guy (why the fuck do people even care about this guy?) is a retard because he invented a great business model that brings in millions?

They mad they didn't think of it first.

 

[gp1628]

Choice of pricing is an unpredictable beast to be sure. I've seen more than a few accounts of games selling better because they bumped their prices from ten to fifteen dollars because of how the amount pricing changes how the customer perceives a game's quality.

Ive seen that also. In the world of online tshirts (something I DO know about).
In those forums the discussion got very heated. But it ended up boiling down to "its not logical" vs "but Ive done it and it works". *shrug*

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Ive seen that also. In the world of online tshirts (something I DO know about).

good god are threadless shirts twenty dollars now or something

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The real crime here is that dominions 3 still wants me to pay more than fifty bucks american for it

I know a professor made it and all but come on

Crime? Why a crime? You consider that a ripoff?

The CD comes with a Windows version and a Mac version and a Linux version. You are allowed to load all 3 if you want to as many computers as you want. It comes with a 300 page spiral bound manual. The patched version is up to 73 nations all fairly unique, with slots up to 99 for adding modded ones.

Ive had Dom3 for something like 6 years. I still play it almost daily. Even in Solo mode. There arent many games I can say that about.

It also STILL gets patched and updated, which are free. Also rare.

It plays on free servers of which there are many. And the copy you get allows you to be a server. Both rare these days.

There are many games that I have paid that much money for that lasted about a month on my machines. Especially war-strategy games. Usually someone posts some sort of always-wins-walkthru to the forums which ruins it for me. After years of attention from dedicated players all you see on the Dom3 forums is arguments on things like that. They are STILL arguing about what nation is weak, which is strong, what is a tactic vs an exploit. And there dont seem to be any actually agreed on "cheats" or auto-win strategies.

Im not saying that any of these things are unique to Dom3 so people dont need to point out other games that do one or two of these (altho I wouldnt mind knowing some more that I can host on my linux server and play from my windows desktop). Im just wondering what the criteria is for "crime". The price maybe be high but I cant consider it a crime. Its one of the only good values Ive ever gotten in a game.

Sounds nice. I'd gladly give about 70PLN for it.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Sounds nice. I'd gladly give about 70PLN for it.

-click click-

...

70.00 PLN = 25.6316 USD

oh przebiegły ziemniaka

 

[Kingston]

Business models. Gah.

There's a very simple business model the gaming industry used back in the day and it worked fine. They put their games (which came in neat boxes) on store shelves. Then people walked in and bought the ones they heard were good. If the game sold well it would get an expansion or a sequel.

All this business model talk is just bullshit - the industry is incapable of making new customers, or even keeping their old ones, so they have to find ways to milk what they have left. They need to sell the same game three times to the same person, be it via DLC, subscription fees (Onlive's rental service lolwut), overpriced collector's editions (that don't even match what a normal box would contain in the good old days), splitting a game into three parts and what have you.

Business models don't make millions. Great games do. They should focus on making great games, because great games sell, it's really that simple.

 

[gp1628]

Business models. Gah.

There's a very simple business model the gaming industry used back in the day and it worked fine. They put their games (which came in neat boxes) on store shelves. Then people walked in and bought the ones they heard were good. If the game sold well it would get an expansion or a sequel.

Heehee. Simple huh?
Thats the advertise/shelfware business model. Its not at all simple. For one thing its very expensive. A ton of layout money by the publisher ahead of the game being created. That is VERY different than the publicize/distribute model.

They both have their pros and cons. But basically the P&D version is better for independents doing their first game, the A&S version is better for... well... for us. Its better for the gamer, and the publisher, and maybe the game developer but not always. Most of the games being put out by a P&D wouldnt be touched by an A&S company (usually referred to as the Big Boys).

Like I said, someone like Illwinter that did Dominions 3 COULD probably switch to that type of company NOW that they have built up a reputation using the company they are with. But apparently they arent interested in the gamble-for-more-profit that is involved

 

[7hm]

Business models. Gah.

There's a very simple business model the gaming industry used back in the day and it worked fine. They put their games (which came in neat boxes) on store shelves. Then people walked in and bought the ones they heard were good. If the game sold well it would get an expansion or a sequel.

All this business model talk is just bullshit - the industry is incapable of making new customers, or even keeping their old ones, so they have to find ways to milk what they have left. They need to sell the same game three times to the same person, be it via DLC, subscription fees (Onlive's rental service lolwut), overpriced collector's editions (that don't even match what a normal box would contain in the good old days), splitting a game into three parts and what have you.

Business models don't make millions. Great games do. They should focus on making great games, because great games sell, it's really that simple.

I had some trouble finding the right emoticon to express both my disgust with your ignorance and my pity for your lack of business / real world savvy. I think this one does a little bit of both with more emphasis on the pity.

The model you use is just as important as the product you sell, if the goal is to make money (and hey, people who make their living off of game development probably want to actually be paid for it!).

 

[Lunac]

Business models. Gah.

There's a very simple business model the gaming industry used back in the day and it worked fine. They put their games (which came in neat boxes) on store shelves. Then people walked in and bought the ones they heard were good. If the game sold well it would get an expansion or a sequel.

All this business model talk is just bullshit - the industry is incapable of making new customers, or even keeping their old ones, so they have to find ways to milk what they have left. They need to sell the same game three times to the same person, be it via DLC, subscription fees (Onlive's rental service lolwut), overpriced collector's editions (that don't even match what a normal box would contain in the good old days), splitting a game into three parts and what have you.

Business models don't make millions. Great games do. They should focus on making great games, because great games sell, it's really that simple.

 

[Kingston]

Heehee. Simple huh?
Thats the advertise/shelfware business model. Its not at all simple. For one thing its very expensive. A ton of layout money by the publisher ahead of the game being created. That is VERY different than the publicize/distribute model...

Yes, yes, you're missing the point. If your game is good, it will sell. If it is bad/average, it won't. The gaming industry's fix is to come up with business models to get the average games to make more money, rather than making better games. Probably because they don't know how to make good games anymore.

Isn't it funny how every year we hear of the new business model that will save gaming? It's episodic content! No, DLC will be our saviour! No, I got it, advertisements inside the game! Cloud-based gaming to the rescue! Gabe Newell's WHATTHEFUCKAMIREADING - Sure! Let's give it a try!

Wake up dipshits, your games suck - that's why they won't sell!

 

[Achilles]

If your game is good, it will sell. If it is bad/average, it won't.

If only that were true.

 

[Jasede]

If your game is good, it'll be pirated to hell and back.
Well, if it's bad, the same will happen, at least from what I learned on the Codex. (Enjoy your Oblivion torrent. Geez, it's like you're standing in line to be spat on.)

 

[gp1628]

Yes, yes, you're missing the point. If your game is good, it will sell. If it is bad/average, it won't. The gaming industry's fix is to come up with business models to get the average games to make more money, rather than making better games. Probably because they don't know how to make good games anymore.

No I think you are missing the point. Wait, I take that back. You have the right points but you are using them to pitch the wrong model.

The big corporate model you pitch involves extensive money for advertising and packaging. That means a major contract. The contract specifies that those investments must be paid back BEFORE the developer gets any profit checks. ALSO the developer usually takes on at least some of the cost if the game doesnt sell. The corporation usually takes control of deadlines, and method of copy protection, and even pushes things like eye-candy and ear-candy. The Corporation also can put the game into sales bins if they feel it fails which goes ONLY to pay back the investment meaning the developer gets none of it. Often the developer is forced to meet their obligations by selling the game rights and sequel rights to the corp (which then proceeds to trash it IMHO)

The other models you mentioned are alternatives to the big business model. Often they are started BY developers as an alternative FOR developers. The model I mentioned (publicity and distribute) involves almost no investment money. Its often used by game developers who start a publishing business.

Many of the excellent games I have seen mentioned in these forums we totally love and would NEVER have seen them under the model you pitch because they tend to not appear to be a game that would sell so no corp would make an investment in it. Or the devs would end up waiting years for a profit and give up on the whole biz. Its the P&D (among others) biz model that allows a game to be put out there to live or die on its own merits. On word of mouth and reviews, not who does the best advertising or most misleading packaging. Yes they are more expensive to us. But more of it goes back instantly to the developer which is good for the franchise.

 

[Zomg]

pricing is absurd why I never... Ladies' Night at a club or what hwattt

They aren't selling a commodity, they are selling a thing that they can produce an infinite amount of instantly, your intuition about it is all retarded

(post is directed at the thread not at the dude above me)

 

[Kingston]

The big corporate model you pitch involves extensive money for advertising and packaging. That means a major contract. The contract specifies that those investments must be paid back BEFORE the developer gets any profit checks. ALSO the developer usually takes on at least some of the cost if the game doesnt sell. The corporation usually takes control of deadlines, and method of copy protection, and even pushes things like eye-candy and ear-candy. The Corporation also can put the game into sales bins if they feel it fails which goes ONLY to pay back the investment meaning the developer gets none of it. Often the developer is forced to meet their obligations by selling the game rights and sequel rights to the corp (which then proceeds to trash it IMHO)

Yes, I know this. I don't literally mean every game has to be in a box in a store shelf. I mean that every game should be sold as a full product, and that companies should make their money from those sales and not try to squeeze more money every way they can. Whether they are sold physically or on a digital platform, how the money is split within the company and so forth is irrelevant to this point.

The other models you mentioned are alternatives to the big business model. Often they are started BY developers as an alternative FOR developers.

Well, that's great and all, but what use are these models to the customer? Does anyone really prefer DLCs over expansion packs? Have you heard of people wanting advertisements in their games? Do you think Onlive is going to succeed with its subscription fee (in which you still have to buy the games as well)? None of these have reduced the price of games, and none of them have added anything valuable to the customer.

The only new model I've seen that is useful to the customer is the one in which you pay for a game while it's being made, like Dwarf Fortress or Minecraft. It allows the customer to help ensure games they like get made. It's also just a one-time fee, in which you purchase one product, and usually at a much cheaper price than what the game will cost once it is completed. It requires a lot of trust from the customer, though, and if the developer doesn't deliver his reputation will be ruined and he prolly won't get another chance.

 

[gp1628]

Well, that's great and all, but what use are these models to the customer? Does anyone really prefer DLCs over expansion packs? Have you heard of people wanting advertisements in their games? Do you think Onlive is going to succeed with its subscription fee (in which you still have to buy the games as well)? None of these have reduced the price of games, and none of them have added anything valuable to the customer.

I totally disagree. Those have brought benefit. Sure there are some sucky games out there but there are also some great ones which were able to be brought to us more cheaply. Consider that the cost of games have not gone UP with everything else that has gone up.

Personally, yes I wanted advertisements in my games. I thought it was a great idea. If its done right. Brand-name placement the way its done in the movies. What do I care if Im playing thru a suburbian setting if the soda can says coke? or the magazines on the table have real names instead of just blurs? If the poster on the wall, or billboard in the street, or brand names on the side of trucks or on top of a store is a real company that Ive heard of? Does this bother me? Not if it helps cover costs. Not a bit.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You have successfully added gp1628 to your ignore list.

Return to the post

Personally, yes I wanted advertisements in my games. I thought it was a great idea. If its done right. Brand-name placement the way its done in the movies. What do I care if Im playing thru a suburbian setting if the soda can says coke? or the magazines on the table have real names instead of just blurs? If the poster on the wall, or billboard in the street, or brand names on the side of trucks or on top of a store is a real company that Ive heard of? Does this bother me?

Except that it's just select few brands instead of including all that stuff for purposes of realism.

Sounds nice. I'd gladly give about 70PLN for it.

-click click-

...

70.00 PLN = 25.6316 USD

oh przebiegły ziemniaka

That's 10 minimal hourly wages. So, in work, it's more like 70 USD. I took the price of paper and printing that doesn't change around unlike the price of work (since it's already produced at the lowest cost possible) into account .

 

[Zomg]

Uggggh how can anyone not find product placement revolting, it still insta-kills any game or movie for me. Even worse than '80s movies where they had white cans labeled "BEER" in black font, I hate you kids that have assimilated that shit, you're all poisoned sweet jesus sweet children all twisted and vile