Applegate's Breasts
Scholar
entertainer said:
Dat's what I don't get yos. That same kid glows about Civ IV. It's not like the jump to HOI2 from Civ IV is that big, is it? :declineofsociety:
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Good Historical Strategy, and the Paradox games
- Thread starter Mr Happy
- Start date
Dat's what I don't get yos. That same kid glows about Civ IV. It's not like the jump to HOI2 from Civ IV is that big, is it? :declineofsociety:
dagorkan
Arbiter
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No but it's an unnecessary annoyance caused by Paradox's obsession with wanting a real-time game. In a strategy game, especially one as high level and 'epic' as WW2 I should not be worrying about the game speed and should not risk losing a crucial battle because I clicked the button to slow the speed a second too late.AlanC9 said:
The major nations have gigantic manpower reserves, but if you play as a smaller nation you'll definitely notice.
Burning Bridges
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I didn't like Hoi2 (or any other paradox game) very much either, and I gave up on it because the amount of micromanagement would kill me. It was after I had defeated Poland according to the historic plan, that it dawned how much work it would require to move my army to the theaters in Norway/Denmark and then France. It is incomprehensible why a game abstracts combat so much at the same time should make movement so complicated. Besides I don't think the rt mechanics add anything to the game, and that it would be much better if turn based.
Erzherzog
Magister
Ctrl + Right Click and selecting Redeployment is not a big hassle at all.
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Thanks for making me look uninformed .. well it's > 2 years ago .. might try again with Hoi3. What matters is that I gave up.
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I have to disagree that HoI and othe paradox games would be better if they weren't real time. RT allows for a much higher granularity of time. A lot can happen in a couple of days in HoI, say during a major offensive, while months will pass quickly when there's little or no fighting going on.
I can't see how a game with daily turns from 1936 to 1945 with would be remotely playable. even weekly turns would be pushing it. To make the game work with long turns you'd have to abstract movement and combat so much that you'd have a very different game. It might still be good but it wouldn't be HoI.
I can't see how a game with daily turns from 1936 to 1945 with would be remotely playable. even weekly turns would be pushing it. To make the game work with long turns you'd have to abstract movement and combat so much that you'd have a very different game. It might still be good but it wouldn't be HoI.
dagorkan
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HoI actually is turn based (new casualties are calculated every hour on the lowest possible speed), but each turn is one hour long, and so during 99.5% of turns you have nothing to do. You will basically take about 5 decisions during the first 25,000 turns if you select the "Road to War" scenario. It's shitty design because you don't know when a 'major' event could come up, so either you go at a snail's pace and it's boring as hell most of the time, or you risk being penalized because you missed an event. Some events you can set so they will automatically pause the game but that is even more annoying because many things that are usually routine can become vital depending on the context.
Traditional turn-based strategy (with a fixed 100 or so IGYG turns) might not fit the setting but it doesn't change the fact that the real-time is extremely annoying. If I was the developer I would have gone for variable length turns, where the turn length is based on what is going on - if something new occurs where a player's input is possible the turn is shortened.
Traditional turn-based strategy (with a fixed 100 or so IGYG turns) might not fit the setting but it doesn't change the fact that the real-time is extremely annoying. If I was the developer I would have gone for variable length turns, where the turn length is based on what is going on - if something new occurs where a player's input is possible the turn is shortened.
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If you play with one hand on the space bar, you can pause within milliseconds of something important happening. It's not ideal, IMHO better than having thousands of turns.
I've been thinking about variable length turns too, and I think it would work well for a game like Europa Universalis, where you're at peace most of the time, but have occasional short wars. But in HoI you often spend half the game at war, and making a game system that's clever enough to know when to shorten the turns and when not to would be extremely challenging, much harder than making a real time game.
I've been thinking about variable length turns too, and I think it would work well for a game like Europa Universalis, where you're at peace most of the time, but have occasional short wars. But in HoI you often spend half the game at war, and making a game system that's clever enough to know when to shorten the turns and when not to would be extremely challenging, much harder than making a real time game.
dagorkan
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The Broken AI:
This is the campaign which made me disgusted with Paradox. As Canada I single-handedly saved Australia from the Japanese (who had steam-rolled Asia), liberated Indonesia, annexed Siam, liberated all of Indochina and saved the British in Burma. During all this time the USA, Britain, Russia didn't do a thing except defend, despite having 100x more troops than me.
After I defeated Japan in Australia, they never made any attempt to take back territories south of the Phillippines, despite them being completely undefended. It's as if a successful liberation of Australia was judged impossible by the scripted AI so it never took account of it's loss and just kept attacking westward at the British.
Once I'd taken back Australia all I had to do was defeat garrisons in SE Asia, they never reinforced or counter-attacked. Once I'd got Indonesia and Singapore under control that cut the supply routes to the Japanese offensive in Burma, but they never reacted. Siam fell to about five of my divisions, using the trick of using transports, land on an unoccupied province, instantly stealing it's supply depot, then re-embark before the enemy can arrive, just kept running around doing that until they broke from lack of supplies. So I had five puppet states but none of the stupid allies took advantage of it. Despite leading straight into fascist China, they kept throwing away troops trying to land in New Guinea and Burma and getting their transports sunk. Their scripted AI doesn't allow for that kind of flexibility.
This is the campaign which made me disgusted with Paradox. As Canada I single-handedly saved Australia from the Japanese (who had steam-rolled Asia), liberated Indonesia, annexed Siam, liberated all of Indochina and saved the British in Burma. During all this time the USA, Britain, Russia didn't do a thing except defend, despite having 100x more troops than me.
After I defeated Japan in Australia, they never made any attempt to take back territories south of the Phillippines, despite them being completely undefended. It's as if a successful liberation of Australia was judged impossible by the scripted AI so it never took account of it's loss and just kept attacking westward at the British.
Once I'd taken back Australia all I had to do was defeat garrisons in SE Asia, they never reinforced or counter-attacked. Once I'd got Indonesia and Singapore under control that cut the supply routes to the Japanese offensive in Burma, but they never reacted. Siam fell to about five of my divisions, using the trick of using transports, land on an unoccupied province, instantly stealing it's supply depot, then re-embark before the enemy can arrive, just kept running around doing that until they broke from lack of supplies. So I had five puppet states but none of the stupid allies took advantage of it. Despite leading straight into fascist China, they kept throwing away troops trying to land in New Guinea and Burma and getting their transports sunk. Their scripted AI doesn't allow for that kind of flexibility.
GarfunkeL
Racism Expert
Oh stop grumbling Dagorkan. Did you get Armageddon? AI is much improved there.
Yes, it's turn-based in that the turns are 1-hour long but you can make the turns as slow or fast as you can. I cannot for the life of my understand how you can miss events because of that. You do know that you can make all the pop-ups to pause the game for you? Or just can order them to only show in the log instead. And the major events, scripted ones, automatically pause the game anyway. So that's a totally empty complain.
AI? Vanilla wasn't too brilliant but even then it had it's moments. DD improved it a bit and Armageddon improved it loads, thanks to Lothos (modder who ended up being employed by Paradox). Problem with the AI is that it requires scripts it's not dynamical. So if the player plays against that script, AI is usually in trouble. Lothos introduced dozens of new AI scripts for all the major players which improved the AI. Sure the AI isn't brilliant but it has to do loads more than in Steel Panthers or TOAW. And I don't think anyone's been claiming that Hoi2 is flawless, bestest of the bestest strategygame evah.
You can take control of your allies militaries so you can manually order them to proceed with an invasion or somesuch. If I play as the USA, that's what I usually do with the UK when it's time for D-Day. Sure it's a bit of hassle but you can always give up the milcontrol afterwards and the AI will continue with it, now that it has troops on the continent. And if you really want to finetune the experience, you can edit the AI-files yourself with notepad. They are documented and pure text. Atleast Paradox deserves kudos for the fact that all of their games are very, very moddable. There's even a Fallout-mod for Hoi2.
And to GlobalExplorer, using strat-redeployment even allows you to keep your leaders and corp/army-organization and names intact. And don't blame the game for giving up if you didn't read the manual. It's written clearly there.
If the game is too easy, turn difficulty to Very Hard, AI to Furious and play the '44-scenario as Germany.
Yes, it's turn-based in that the turns are 1-hour long but you can make the turns as slow or fast as you can. I cannot for the life of my understand how you can miss events because of that. You do know that you can make all the pop-ups to pause the game for you? Or just can order them to only show in the log instead. And the major events, scripted ones, automatically pause the game anyway. So that's a totally empty complain.
AI? Vanilla wasn't too brilliant but even then it had it's moments. DD improved it a bit and Armageddon improved it loads, thanks to Lothos (modder who ended up being employed by Paradox). Problem with the AI is that it requires scripts it's not dynamical. So if the player plays against that script, AI is usually in trouble. Lothos introduced dozens of new AI scripts for all the major players which improved the AI. Sure the AI isn't brilliant but it has to do loads more than in Steel Panthers or TOAW. And I don't think anyone's been claiming that Hoi2 is flawless, bestest of the bestest strategygame evah.
You can take control of your allies militaries so you can manually order them to proceed with an invasion or somesuch. If I play as the USA, that's what I usually do with the UK when it's time for D-Day. Sure it's a bit of hassle but you can always give up the milcontrol afterwards and the AI will continue with it, now that it has troops on the continent. And if you really want to finetune the experience, you can edit the AI-files yourself with notepad. They are documented and pure text. Atleast Paradox deserves kudos for the fact that all of their games are very, very moddable. There's even a Fallout-mod for Hoi2.
And to GlobalExplorer, using strat-redeployment even allows you to keep your leaders and corp/army-organization and names intact. And don't blame the game for giving up if you didn't read the manual. It's written clearly there.
If the game is too easy, turn difficulty to Very Hard, AI to Furious and play the '44-scenario as Germany.
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GarfunkeL said:
Sure, I would have read it had the game been more fun.
Burning Bridges
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Maybe time to get back to topic, here some links to another interesting game:
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=301492
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/351 ... 7s.Edition
the game is War in the Pacific, a major update version (Admirals Edition) should be out soon.
This game has 1d turns (huh?) and unfortunately resolution is fixed to 1024*768. That doesnt convince me yet but because of the gc option it's one of the interesting titles.
http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=301492
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/351 ... 7s.Edition
the game is War in the Pacific, a major update version (Admirals Edition) should be out soon.
This game has 1d turns (huh?) and unfortunately resolution is fixed to 1024*768. That doesnt convince me yet but because of the gc option it's one of the interesting titles.
Carlos' Bitch1
Arcane
I think we need a new thread called "HardKore Strategy - No Girly men allowed".
That game will eat the OP for breakfast and destroy his very soul. Cruel, cruel man GE. I remember the original game and played it to death as the Japanese. Couldn't play as the Allies because the Jap AI wasn't up to the challenge. Pity.
That game will eat the OP for breakfast and destroy his very soul. Cruel, cruel man GE. I remember the original game and played it to death as the Japanese. Couldn't play as the Allies because the Jap AI wasn't up to the challenge. Pity.
Burning Bridges
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I think I will get it myself tho. Just waiting for the AE to come out. If you played it to death does that mean the game was fun?
Elwro
Arcane
I tried to play the original War in the Pacific. I lost quite a big amount of time trying to fix the text which was too tiny to read, and then the tutorial took very long because I had to be reading the manual. Could be an interesting game if I had a week or two completely off.
Carlos' Bitch1
Arcane
GE: As stated, you will a lot of time. Forget it when I said you need a lot of time for Rot3K11, this is a whole different "lot of time". The game is incredibly complicated and can take hours just going through one "turn".
If you love details and have that time, and love the operational area it is in, then I say keep your eyes on this new version. Otherwise, best leave your money in the wallet.
I had plenty of fun with it, but my desire to play as the allies couldn't happen because the Japanese AI is braindead. The Allied AI isn't brilliant either, but with the power of the US the AI makes up for things.
If you love details and have that time, and love the operational area it is in, then I say keep your eyes on this new version. Otherwise, best leave your money in the wallet.
I had plenty of fun with it, but my desire to play as the allies couldn't happen because the Japanese AI is braindead. The Allied AI isn't brilliant either, but with the power of the US the AI makes up for things.
Burning Bridges
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Ok, maybe we should have a new thread titled "games for unemployment". My initial suggestions: Forge of Freedom, War in the Pacific, Ageods American Civil War.
Carlos' Bitch1
Arcane
GE, I am surprised you didn't suggest this to the OP
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/365 ... nde.Guerre
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/365 ... nde.Guerre
Burning Bridges
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As a spoilt customer of previous ageod titles I must say this is an incredibly ugly game and the gamebreaking bugs don't help either. Even if the bugs get ironed out I think I'll wait for VGN, which will be made by the core team again ( WWI was an external deal )
That's a matter of subjective taste, of course. But if you want to purchase your first Ageod game I definitely suggest to stick to either WiA or ACW.
That's a matter of subjective taste, of course. But if you want to purchase your first Ageod game I definitely suggest to stick to either WiA or ACW.
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