Kaucukovnik said:
Compare this to, say, lockpicking: click, skill check -> success/failure. Similar for all other skills.
(...)
Overall the complexity of non-combat gameplay is as if you'd decide a whole combat in one skill check comparing your character and the enemy. Doing that to combat would be an outrage, yet screwing other aspects in the same way is perfectly fine, we even don't know it any other way.
First problem. Lockpicking is not the entirety of stealth gameplay, and as such should not be treated as analogue of entire combat gameplay. If anything, individual instance of stabbing a lock with a lockpick is analogous to individual instance of stabbing a mob with your weapon - in most cases a single attack roll.
The entirety of stealth gameplay also involves sneaking around, avoiding/distracting guards, etc., in a well executed case forming a kind of stealth tactics analogous to combat tactics. Of course, a variety of stealth equipment and security measures to be defeated also helps, in a similar manner variety of gear and enemies helps make combat interesting.
Is there a game that lets you actually play a mage? Not a "fireball thrower" - a mage. Who studies mystical powers and learns to use them in his favor.
Morrowind?
To play a successful caster you'll have to spend a lot of time devising precisely tuned custom spells - spamming circinate fireballs, or spell spam in general will get you killed. Morrowind also offers a wide array of utility magic, usually far more useful than straight artillery spells.
Drawing symbols like in Arx Fatalis doesn't count as "simulated understanding of magic" in my book, but it is a step in the right direction.
No, it is merely an atmospheric take on gesture based interface. Might be a good thing, if used well enough.
Bethesdian minigames are as well, in a way. The difficulty is totally wrong (along with the awful philosopy "never let the player screw up"), but they are trying to let us actually lockpick, hack or negotiate. Adding some interesting skill influences on the course of the action could do wonders.
No, they are not and no, they don't.
First, bethesdian minigames let player skill override character skill making character skill redundant.
Second, the typical problem with minigames is that they suck. A minigame will generally take you out of the world and bear only passing semblance to the skill it stands for, especially if the skill can't be minigamized reasonably - see dialogue wheel. The best minigame can hope for is being relatively non-intrusive and the only purpose it can possibly serve is being an effective attention sink. Some games do succeed at those - locks&traps from Wiz8 were reasonably nonintrusive, System Shock series features decent puzzles and attention sinks, but bethsoft games are definitely not among those "some games". Being attention sink is downright impossible if minigame is handled in inventory time - even Morrowind's lockpicking was thousand times better in this regard as you a guard could sneak up on you when you were picking locks. As for non-intrusiveness, in my short and not-so-happy career of Oblivion player I chose to spam auto-attempt rather than enduring the minigame, even though I know a flawless method to solve it regardless of character skill, so yeah.
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Baron said:
I loved playing a Lizard Alchemist Assassin in ES:Oblivion, sneaking about gathering reagants, mixing them in my laboratory, and then sniping monsters from afar with my poisons and watching them collapse at my feet. The preparation was reminiscent of Ultima's magic system, and I enjoyed them both. I prefer Mages as the slower, more prepared Class, that yield great power and/or diversity of play for the patient and resourceful; as opposed to the Gauntlet mage.
With the exception of poisons, which were one of the very few actual improvements in Oblivion, the magic system was vastly inferior to that in Morrowind (which in turn was badly degraded compared to the one in DF in some areas, but significantly improved in others).
Yes, a reagant system is slow gameplay, but afterall, that's why wizards are so fucking old. Impatient Players can pick Barbarian.
Fucking this.
Regarding spell acquisition, I always liked building up a base. I would like if ALL spells could only be obtained from books (purchase, find, loot, coerce, defeat a rival wizard, author!). The PC would eventually build his own library of every spell he/she owned giving them the same satisfaction as a Warrior would seeing his swords and shields on display.
I like flexibility in general so I'm naturally reserved when it comes to categorical statements like "ALL spells". Still, it would be good if you had to research your magic, hunt for some grimoires, maybe even glyphs engraved in ancient temples. Also components, while perhaps not necessarily essential for all kinds of spells, could make magic much more interesting.
For Rogues, Witcher 2 hinted at a simple Stealth system of placeables on the floor to indicate tripping/kicking something, making noise (thus summoning guards).
Blah, just put random stray items around and make enemies noise sensitive. Would work in DeusEx.
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Kaucukovnik said:
In Fallout, when you encounter an enemy, a rather lengthy minigame takes place.
Objection! On the grounds of argument being strawman.
This is not
minigame, it's integrated with main mechanics and world representation, while typical minigame will use its own separate screen and usually be very highly abstract and not exactly to the point.
If you used some jpg as your example, then yes, combat is minigame in those, it usually plays out on separate screen not related to the actual world layout, uses WTF mechanics and so on.
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The_scorpion said:
In order to make a skill like lockpicking interesting enough it would have to have major importance in the overall game. Like an RPG where you play a burglar that has to find better ways to break into and rob houses.
That burglar may only rarely encounter an armed citizen, where his shooting skills would come into play. And since armed citizens usually can't shoot for fuck, he'd even more rarely be forced to use his medical skills.
In this situation, various detailed ways of "lockpicking" or otherwise gaining access to restricted areas would make sense. Minigames shouldn't be the answer.
the alternative is to make the RPG party-based and add lots of locked doors :/
So you'd have to have at least one decent lockpicker with the party. Yeah well.
Negative. THE alternative is to flesh out several areas of the gameplay, like combat, stealth, etc. and allow different character/party builds find their own viable paths involving challenges they are capable of tackling.
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MisterStone said:
The three implementations I have seen in games are as follows:
1) You "U"se your skill on a map tile etc; if the skill is high enough (and you make a roll) it does something. I think perhaps the first game this was used extensively in was Wasteland, but maybe I am wrong.
Likewise, I like the #1 the most, mainly on the grounds that it is grounded in mechanics, unlike #2, but it needs major update - map tiles suck due to not being sufficiently detailed representation of the world. Things like weird impact of skills of grenade tossing in Fallout were consequence of this simple fact - when the basic quantum of space in your game is hex about a meter across and the only more detailed representation is when you aim for body parts, you don't have any sensible way to introduce skill when throwing explosives - bouncing them off walls, or aiming for small opening in cover is prevented by the coarse nature of play field, so you can only make character fail spectacularly in the most retarded manner.
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Sceptic said:
Kaucukovnik said:
"Player skill" is obviously a forbidden term around here. And the only proper way to make a true RPG is to avoid anything that's even remotely incorporated in a commercially successful title.
Not really. But if all we're getting from the commercially successful titles are cover systems, quest compasses, poor writing and the rest, then I'm sure you can understand our position. As for player skill, not it's not forbidden. In fact we highly encourage it in our action games, platformers, FPS, etc. We don't mind it that much in our RPG,
unless it forces itself in at the expense of character skills having any effect whatsoever, at which point yeah we definitely don't want it to do that. Because, unlike you, some of us tend to define "RPG" as "character skill over player skill", not as "has combat".
This.
Personally, I've always found the crusade against player skill moronic. The only way to eliminate player skill would be eradicating all interactivity, which is not a point. Yes, those are
RPGs, but that also means they are RP
Gs.
However, this only works if player skill doesn't override character skill - minigames, as bethesda aptly demonstrated, are prone to violating this rule. Currently commercially successful titles tend to be excessively retard friendly, and this is where the needs of even most open minded codexian and mainstream developer ultimately diverge.
I don't mind even the larges concentrations of twitch based gameplay or anything like it. I do mind if being extremely good at this twitch gaming allows me to ignore my character build. Also, I do mind if twitching devoid of tactics or any thought still permits success.
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Kaucukovnik said:
- attempting to pick the same lock for the 10th time can break the dynamics of an escape sequence, etc.
No. It's not the tenth attempt to pick the lock that breaks the dynamics here, it's the simple fact that player is allowed to take his time. Bad quest design yields bad gameplay yields bad storytelling.
-Immersion: The more you feel like being there and doing what your character is doing, the better. Mere skill checks are a letdown here.
Not nearly as much as typical minigames. Picture dialogue in Oblivion:
%charname is talking with a shopkeeper. Seeing the lady's reserved, suspicious attitude, he decides to try some subtle persuasion
WHAM!
LET'S PLAY THE WHEEL OF PERSUASION(TM)!!!!1
*clickclickclick*
NOW BACK TO OUR REGULAR SCHEDULED PROGRAM!!!1
errr... umm... nevermind.
So very immersive.