I need an anti min-max RPG

[DavidBVal]

WFRP sounds interesting but I heavily dislike Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy). They are grimdark to the point of feeling juvenile, so I probably wouldn't have fun (I did play some Dark Heresy but the DM was cool and we just fought some greedy mechanicus guys, that were corrupt in the material sense of the word).

Seriously, when I say WFRP 1st edition I really mean anything pre-1989, and a few select things up to 1990. It is an unbelievably good mixture of dark fantasy, humor and horror that probably will never happen again. I'm talking about Shadows Over Boghenhafen, for instance, one of the best adventure modules ever, and it's a pity 99% of PNP enthusiasts will never know about it. 40K or whatever juvenile shit they did with the fantasy setting: agreed, wouldn't touch with a standard 10 foot pole.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Warhammer Fantasy is a lot less grimdark (or was, the lore got increasingly retarded). Not exactly high fantasy but the Empire feels like it has a much better chance than the Imperium (reasonably competent leadership, technologically evolving, less super doom impossible threats like the Tyranids, friendly states like Brettonia and Kislev).

Indeed I liked how some of the lore books hinted that Chaos for the Empire was shifting from axe wielding frontier barbarians to a French Revolution type scenario of internal destabilising against the increasingly complacent and decadent nobility.

Yeah, and the inner power plays were much more interesting. Even in the campaigns about saving the world you could be sure to find that one asshole, who wanted some position of power and wealth.

 

[Snorkack]

I'm talking about Shadows Over Boghenhafen, for instance, one of the best adventure modules ever,

So much this! WFRP ruleset rather sucks, but the Enemy Within campaign (with the inofficial ending at least) was the best commercial pnp module I ever played. It iwas written in a time when WHF setting didn't take itself too serious and was a bit more light-hearted.

 

[Alex]

I'm talking about Shadows Over Boghenhafen, for instance, one of the best adventure modules ever,

So much this! WFRP ruleset rather sucks, (snip...)

Well, I am not a big fan of how they handled a lot of things in that rule system. But it had some very good points, though. I especially liked how they handled making the PCs part of the setting by making them take actual jobs in order to define their starting PC and to advance their abilities. Being more or less compatible with the miniatures game also means you can use it to handle large scale combats and what not.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Dungeon. Crawl. Classics.

The

End.

Download the beta rules (pretty close approximation of how the end product turned out)
http://www.goodman-games.com/downloads/DCCRPGBeta060811.pdf

This.

DCC

Try it.

http://purplesorcerer.com/tools.php

 

[DavidBVal]

I'm talking about Shadows Over Boghenhafen, for instance, one of the best adventure modules ever,

So much this! WFRP ruleset rather sucks, (snip...)

Well, I am not a big fan of how they handled a lot of things in that rule system. But it had some very good points, though. I especially liked how they handled making the PCs part of the setting by making them take actual jobs in order to define their starting PC and to advance their abilities. Being more or less compatible with the miniatures game also means you can use it to handle large scale combats and what not.

WFRP 1st edition system is a nonsensical adaptation from WFB rules.

but it works. And better than many perfectly designed systems. Having a critical on a 6 of a D6 makes it bloody, and the fact Fate Points are there makes it all even more lethal, as players know you'll never hold back and spare them because of "muh story". And believe me, losing a fate point that will never come back can hurt almost as much as dying.

You only have to address a few things:

-make each advance in the scheme cost more. Having everything cost 100xp leads to EVERY warrior buying a second attack, then all in toughness, then all in WS. Instead make it progressively more expensive, and the 1st extra attack should cost 200XP

-either assume that PCs will never be accomplished mages, or give them alternate ways to learn spells without spending so much XP.

-simplify the XP awards.

 

[Ludo Lense]

Meh never actually been a fan of pure dungeon crawlers. I usually use them for set pieces but sparingly. I almost never do the orc band/monsters/wizard in the cave/castle/tower shtick. Curiously I am much more accepting of this in video games.

One of my favorite dungeons for a PnP was I've made was a castle,with which the party was already familiar, that started shifting at random in another plane. The party had to rush inside to stop it but there was plenty of opportunities for heroism and tactical combat (lots of running away, spiking doors shut, leading civilians away etc).

 

[nikolokolus]

Meh never actually been a fan of pure dungeon crawlers. I usually use them for set pieces but sparingly. I almost never do the orc band/monsters/wizard in the cave/castle/tower shtick. Curiously I am much more accepting of this in video games.

One of my favorite dungeons for a PnP was I've made was a castle,with which the party was already familiar, that started shifting at random in another plane. The party had to rush inside to stop it but there was plenty of opportunities for heroism and tactical combat (lots of running away, spiking doors shut, leading civilians away etc).

Are you referring to DCC RPG? Don't let the name fool you, it actually probably does gonzo/ Weird Tales themed fantasy better than it does pure dungeon crawling -- Part of that flavor comes through in its rules, but when you read a Goodman Games authored DCC module you really get the gist of how they envision play.

 

[deuxhero]

Mutants and Masterminds has it so every player character is expected to hit the caps for defense and offense (though in different ways. You hit the attack cap either as an accurate but weak, strong but inaccurate or any mix) and provides a system to hose OP PCs in a fun way with complications: If Superman is hogging all the glory, throw out magic users, lands with red suns or plain old kryptonite, but kidnapping Lois/Jimmy and other story setbacks work too, but in exchange for this Superman's player gets a hero point, which is basicly a free ticket to do something weird with his powers (use his super speed to rub a large iron rod super fast to create a magnet to trap the evil robots) but requires creativity instead of system mastery.

 

[FuriousGamer87]

Can anyone give me some examples of high lethality RPGs so min-maxers can't weasel their way out?

I know I can just say "Rocks fall, people die!" but I don't want to be antagonistic. This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.

I am leaning towards Call of Cthulhu since the creatures will kill you and succumbing to insanity is an inevitability if you keep fighting the mythos stuff.

Go with Savage Worlds mechanics.

It's easy to pick up and very lethal while min maxing opportunity is pretty hard due to the core mechanics.

There also have a Cthulhu splatbook dealing with the effects of Sanity and fatigue.

 

[Ludo Lense]

Can anyone give me some examples of high lethality RPGs so min-maxers can't weasel their way out?

I know I can just say "Rocks fall, people die!" but I don't want to be antagonistic. This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.

I am leaning towards Call of Cthulhu since the creatures will kill you and succumbing to insanity is an inevitability if you keep fighting the mythos stuff.

Go with Savage Worlds mechanics.

It's easy to pick up and very lethal while min maxing opportunity is pretty hard due to the core mechanics.

There also have a Cthulhu splatbook dealing with the effects of Sanity and fatigue.

I find Savage Worlds to be much too simplistic. It is really good for new players but you can quickly see that each scenario resembles each other mechanically.

That being said we are playing Deadlands classic (Savage Worlds's grandfather). Its just right with some house rules.

 

[nikolokolus]

I'll go ahead and throw out another system that I've had a lot of fun with. Magic World from Chaosium. It's basically the old Stormbringer/Elric! without the Moorcockian IP compiled and cleaned up and married to some of the mechanics from the BRP "Big Gold Book." Combat is fast and deadly. It's level-less and skill-based and very easy to run and it's pretty much the antithesis of Min-maxing. It does a great job with sword & sorcery style games.

 

[L'ennui]

Fate and Fate Accelerated are both very non min-max systems and can be as lethal as you like depending on whether or not you "toggle" some of the optional rules. They are also setting-agnostic so you could do whatever you want with them.

 

[Caim]

Risus. Leveling up in Risus involves rolling a number of dice at the end of a session equal to your cliché level. If they're all even, you level up. So the higher level you are the more difficult it becomes to level up.

 

[Alex]

I get the impression that the idea most people in this thread have of making an RPG avoid min-maxing is by making it boring...