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Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

thesheeep

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The outcome of a character's actions is determined by the character's skills/stats/attributes, and NOT by player skill.
Just for the sake of being argumentative, this is a rather tricky point. If we take player skill completely out of the equation, we'll get, as I've said, Progress Quest. Combat tactics is already a player skill, and arguably so is build optimization.
I think you need to re-read that.
"the outcome of a character's actions" - how those actions come to be isn't part of the definition. The player gives the orders, of course.
But no matter how skillful the player is, the outcome of each action is based purely on the character's stats.
That there is a kind of player skill in building the character is a given after the second point of the definition - I mean, someone has to build/advance the character, right? ;)

I'm not entirely sure if Progress Quest is actually a game. I mean... do you really "play" it? Does the player do anything?
Assuming that it is a game, though:
Progress Quest is kind of the core of what a game needs to have to qualify as an RPG - assuming that stuff like combat, etc. is actually resolved using character stats. Don't know, never played it more than a minute...
It is utterly boring, of course, but being good isn't required to fulfill a definition.
 
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V_K

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"the outcome of a character's actions" - how those actions come to be isn't part of the definition. The player gives the orders, of course.
It's a distinction that is very hard to make. Most challenges in RPGs are synergies of character skill and player skill - they wouldn't be challenges otherwise. Even if we separate combat into more granular actions, the outcome of a particular attack (in a most primitive sense - it's to-hit chance) is just as dependent on character skills as it is on your planning - whether you thought to pre-buff the char, or flank the enemy, or manipulate the battlefield in some way. Or think, for example, of trap disarming minigame in later Wizardries - here the character skills only frame the process without directly affecting it. Does this make Wiz6 is hybrid? I seriously doubt so.
 

thesheeep

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"the outcome of a character's actions" - how those actions come to be isn't part of the definition. The player gives the orders, of course.
It's a distinction that is very hard to make.
No it is not, it just looks like you willingly do not understand what many here are talking about.

Most challenges in RPGs are synergies of character skill and player skill - they wouldn't be challenges otherwise.
That is just absurd.
There are challenges for the player - such as playing through the game, winning a battle, etc.. And challenges for the character, which is every single action it does, from swinging a sword to anything else.
The challenges for the player in most parts consist of a series of challenges for the character in which the player determines the exact action taken - but the player's skill does NOT influence the outcome of these actions further than by having created a good character and determining stuff like positions.

Even if we separate combat into more granular actions, the outcome of a particular attack (in a most primitive sense - it's to-hit chance) is just as dependent on character skills as it is on your planning - whether you thought to pre-buff the char, or flank the enemy, or manipulate the battlefield in some way.
Again, character building/advancement is its own point of the definition already covering that part.
Flanking and positioning is in the player's hands, sure, but the outcome of each single action is still dependant on the character's stats, not in how well or fast the player clicks.
In the situation that the character is in at that moment, only its stats count, not the player. That the player had an influence in putting the character into that situation is a given - and not relevant for the definition.

Or think, for example, of trap disarming minigame in later Wizardries - here the character skills only frame the process without directly affecting it. Does this make Wiz6 is hybrid? I seriously doubt so.
These mini-games indeed are not pure RPG, they can be seen as puzzle or action sequences depending on the exact implementation.
Which is one of the reasons many people do not like mini-games in RPGs. It is absurd that suddenly player skill is important when character skill should be.

However, their share of the game time is so minimal - and they are still heavily influenced by character stats - that I would say it doesn't matter.
But yes, if you'd go for full precision, you could say something like 99%pure RPG 1%puzzle. I wouldn't mind. In fact, I'd like it if games were described like that. Would give a more precise picture of what to expect than justt saying "Puzzle RPG" or "Action RPG".
 
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Swampy_Merkin

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*yawn*

this is boring.

Do you, when booting up this program, feel like you're taking on some kind of role?

Yes.

And you're doing this on some kind of computer right?

Well...duh..obviously.

THEN YOU ARE PLAYING SOME KIND OF COMPUTER ROLE-PLAYING GAME!!
WINNNER!!!
 

Swampy_Merkin

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*yawn*

this is boring.

There is no LARPing allowed in "What is an RPG?" threads.

Hey...guess what. You don't have to LARP here. You can LARP whenever you feel like it. That's the beauty of LARPing.

You can literally turn it on or off whenever you feel like it.....hhmmmm....just like a computer role-playing game. I wonder if there could be any overlap?
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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"What is an RPG?" thread.

Sorry keep correcting you, I know you loathe being corrected and it's pointless trying with you, but this thread is about whether you personally think SRR: DMS is a cRPG or not. Sure, once you've made a case it can derail into points you've made which might make it seem like a "WiaRPG thread", but it's actually not. In your 12 posts to this thread so far you have still yet to make any claim to having even played SRR: DMS, let alone provide an opinion on the thread topic.
 

Blaine

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Sorry keep correcting you, I know you loathe being corrected and it's pointless trying with you, but this thread is about whether you personally think SRR: DMS is a cRPG or not.

There's no need to be sorry, because you aren't correcting anything and your histrionics don't bother me in the least. They also aren't fooling anybody. Your own original post in this thread rambles on at great length about what constitutes an RPG; these opinions then form the basis of your conclusion that SRR is therefore not a cRPG. You must genuinely be stupid if you don't see the connection.

Even setting aside the OP, a topic such as this one inevitably opens the "What is an RPG?" can of worms, as I've already mentioned. This is fact, and not opinion, as evidenced by the thread turning into a "What is an RPG?" discussion immediately after you posted it. "B-but they derailed muh thread!" :lol:

5ba221db06.png


Since you keep on whining about the game you insist is the one and only topic of discussion in this thread, yeah, I played it. I stopped playing it because it was a shallow, simple, and boring disappointment with mediocre writing, little to no discernible C&C, etc. Whether or not it qualifies as a proper cRPG is a moot point to me because it's shit in the first place and I'd rather just forget it even exists.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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5ba221db06.png


Since you keep on whining about the game you insist is the one and only topic of discussion in this thread, yeah, I played it. I stopped playing it because it was a shallow, simple, and boring disappointment with mediocre writing, little to no discernible C&C, etc. Whether or not it qualifies as a proper cRPG is a moot point to me because it's shit in the first place and I'd rather just forget it even exists.

So if it had been more of a cRPG, you'd probably have given it more time, yes?
 

Blaine

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If it had been a better game, sure, I would have given it more time.

"cRPG" and "shit" are not mutually exclusive. It's possible for a game to be a cRPG and also shit.

Whether or not SRR qualifies as a proper cRPG doesn't interest me in the least. Probably you think that I do consider it to be a cRPG and are fishing for that, but the simple truth is that I don't care enough to make the distinction.
 

Ziem

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dunno whether it's really an rpg or not
one thing for sure though, this tablet shovelware isn't a *c*rpg in my book
 

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