KOTOR2's ending was fine... (some spoilers, be wary)

[Spazmo]

Lots of terrific things were intended for KOTOR2. For whatever reason, very few of them made it into the game. Kreia may have been an attempt at a deep, shades-of-grey-morality character, but ultimately, she was just a typical megalomaniacal villain who also happened to get on my fucking nerves all the time.

 

[PennyAnte]

Some people go through without armor. Some refuse to use spells. Of course, a lot of this is for bragging rights, but sometimes it's really for people who want a challenge. ... Who cares what a few programmers think is "balanced" or not? Make your own rules.

YOU GOT IT!!! At the next family gathering I'm going to play horseshoes with a blindfold and both legs tied together!!! Really fast!!! With kids around!! It will be a challenge for EVERYONE!!! THEY better have some fucking armor and spells!!

The "talented tenth" is smart enough to limit themselves anyway, which is a normal practice for mature gamers.

Hear that Voly!!?? You're one of those shitty 90 percenters!!!

LMAO and r00fles!

 

[Higher Game]

Shut up. I clearly meant he's in the top 10%. He just isn't used to being limited, it does take some getting used to. How hard is it to limit yourselves? Don't you think it's awesome going through Fallout with a desert eagle? Or killing a sniper in Counterstrike with a humble pistol?

Are you a person who uses Gameshark or "god mode" so you never lose? Give me a break. Intentionally making yourself weak, yet still coming out on top, is what makes so many games great, especially Fallout. I bet you enjoy the skilled/gifted talents a lot...

 

[PennyAnte]

OOOOOMG ...

If you like that, fine. I like to play the game more "holistically" and "organically." Somewhere in between powergaming and nerfing myself. If I end up as a 10-ton gorilla doing that, or only get a challenge from cheesed-difficulty boss fights, there's a problem.

As Voly said, in that case, the game failed, not me.

 

[Higher Game]

That's fine. No game can be balanced for everyone. All games can be expected to "fail" in this regard.

 

[PennyAnte]

Well, on a more serious note, SWKotoR2tSL had a difficulty slider for people who like it a little tougher, no? How come the challenge only went from "ga ga goo goo" to "thumbsucker?" Surely we can find fault with that.

 

[Claw]

Not if you had limited your ability to find fault sufficiently. That's what mature gamers do.

 

[Volourn]

"It would be stupid to make the game where only 10% of people can beat it."

People will adapt. Unlike you, I even give the stupids the benefit of the doubt.

Andm Spazmo pretty much nailed the number 1 reason why KOTOR2's dialogue is overrated just because because it's Avelloneeee...

And, no, Kreai is evil no matter how you twist it. She very much is self serving and she doesn't care who she has to manipulate, control, threaten, or murder to getw hat she wants. That, mon ami, is the defintion of "evil".


"You'e one of those shitty 90 percenters!!!"

Wouldn't be the first time I was trashed. LOL

 

[themadhatter114]

Kreia...

I have to agree with Kreia's being evil. But she's not really evil in the Star Wars sense. She fits D&D neutral evil perfectly, though. She's not maniacal and out to kill everyone and rule the universe. She's no Vader, or Palpatine, or anything like that. She's more like Satan in Dogma, trying to prove God wrong in order to nullify all existence to end his own torment. And who's more evil than Satan?

 

[Spazmo]

She's still doing a very bad thing for reasons of pure self-interest. Regardless of lawful, chaotic, Vader or whatever, that's just evil.

 

[themadhatter114]

I'm not saying she's not evil. I'm just saying that while Higher Game is a little zealous in arguing that she's complex because she's neutral, he has a bit of a point. I definitely think she's evil, but she's more interesting than typical Star Wars evil. Not that I think Star Wars evil is boring, per se, just that I think that it shouldn't be overdone, and that any attempt to throw other types of characters into the universe is cool as far as I'm concerned.

More specifically, my quote "not really evil in the Star Wars sense" wasn't saying that she wouldn't be considered evil by Star Wars' standards, just that she was atypical of antagonists in Star Wars epics.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, on a more serious note, SWKotoR2tSL had a difficulty slider for people who like it a little tougher, no? How come the challenge only went from "ga ga goo goo" to "thumbsucker?" Surely we can find fault with that.

You want it harder, play the dark side where you have to fight the damned jedi masters at the end of most of the planets. I went to Dantooine first, and my guardian couldn't even HIT the damned Jedi Master when I had to fight him, even though I mostly breezed through the game up to that point. When I started using mines like crazy to blow the bastard up, he started Force Healing himself.

 

[Kthan75]

WTF?

I liked KOTOR 2. I enjoyed it more than the first game. However, giving its ending a 9/10 score is totally exagerated. I did find the game and the story more interesting, more 'philosophycal' (hope I spelled it right...) and some of the characters more interesting. But I was also very dissapointed, a lot more dissapointed than I was about Kotor 1. I was promised complex characters, with a rich background story. What did I get? I got 3 chars that I already knew in the first game. Except for Kreia and the Mira/Hanhar story, I found the others boring. Vissas had a lot of potential, but that didn't happen. Anyway, as for the ending... what can I say? So much more could have been done, so many threads left unfinished.
If the game had another year of development, I would have been something...

 

[Neverwhere]

I find it rather odd that people who are all fluffy about the PS:T ending care to bash KOTOR2's grand finale that much. The similarities between the two endings are striking, and they would be even greater if the cut scenes involving your comerades sacrificing themselves for you had been part of it. (That is, if they were really supposed to be integrated as they allegedly were.)

Characters who are bonded to you in one way or another sacrifice themselves for you. The hero learns a secret: the true war is still out there, waiting to be fought. The hero leaves the stage to join in the true war, because that is what heroes do. Short video. Credits.

That is not to say that PS:T's ending was not better than KOTOR2's. Certainly, while the open ending does not necessitate a conclusion of all the stories involving the other party members, it would be nice at least for the stories on Malachor not to be suspended in mid-air. Nevertheless, the ending is alright as it is, and it leaves some room for more than just a cameo appearance of one or more of the characters in an eventual third part (though I wonder how the true war with the true sith would fit into the Star Wars universe, sounds more Planescape to me).

 

[Claw]

Are people supposed to give Kotor2 credit for a hypothetic ending that isn't the factual ending, because it was "supposed to be"?

The main criticism appeared to be that it was quite simply a mess.

 

[Neverwhere]

Are people supposed to give Kotor2 credit for a hypothetic ending that isn't the factual ending, because it was "supposed to be"?

True enough, but even before reading up on the "hidden" KOTOR2 files I thought that the ending had PS:T written all over it.

That is not to say that the characters in KOTOR2 live up to PS:T's standard - there can hardly be an adequate replacement for Dak'kon.

 

[DorrieB]

Higher Game: I actually liked KOTOR2, a lot. I agree with you that the story was a lot more cerebral than in KOTOR, and it raises some ideas that are at the very least interesting, whether you agree with them or not.

I think you've missed the point with Kreia. She's not a proper Sith any more. The Sith still believe in evil and selfishness and "might makes right", not unlike Ayn Rand; Kreia went through some soul-searching after she was cast down as Sith Lord, and now she's got this weird philosophy of not-good but not-evil and not-neutral either, which makes her an annoying old bat, but at least she's an interesting character with a personality. I liked that bit.

The problem with the ending is that a story needs to build up to a climax: Emotions come to a head, plot threads are tied up, questions are answered, and the audience gets a resolution to everything that went before. Then an epilogue to let you settle back, and then the end. KOTOR1 had a very simple ending, but it did all this. Planescape: Torment had a brilliant climax and a beautiful, bittersweet epilogue.

KOTOR2 ends like a shaggy-dog story, and unlike those, it isn't even funny. In the final confrontation, Kreia answers all your questions as if she's bored with the whole proceedings:

"What now?"
"You expected some great big revelations? Nah. We just fight and that's it."
"What about Revan?"
"Gah, she's out there, somewhere. Who cares?"
"What about my friends?"
"Ah, they'll live on until they die of one thing or another, as people do. You know, the usual."
"What about the galaxy?"
"Oh, it will get on with things, like always. Doesn't matter."
"Yeah, well, all right, but what was it all about then, this whole adventure?"
"Tcha, nothing in particular."

If this were sex, you've just had some nice foreplay, followed by an "excuse me, I have to go take a piss", and then going to sleep without a cuddle or a cigarette or anything.

It's no good saying that it's a "cliffhanger ending" as in Empire Strikes Back. Yes, the empire is winning, and Han is frozen, and everything's gone bags, but it ends with at least one big revelation: "Luke, I am your father" "Noooooo! It's not trueeee!" "Yes it is. Here, I'll cut off your hand. Let's rule the galaxy together." "Aaaaargh! I'm falling to my deaaaath!" "Luke! We've got you! Now let's go rescue Han!" The End.

See, that would be a climax, there.