Review Oblivion reviewed by the Codex

[bryce777]

It depends on how the iron is forged. You can make i rock hard, but then it is brittle. Steel is best because it can bend and is srong, of course.

Iron, no matter how you temper it, is always soft and malleable.

High-carbon steel is hard (and hence brittle).

To get something that can bend well while retaining an edge you have to mix low-carbon steel (a lot like iron) with high carbon steel. They used to call it the damascus method.

no

 

[sheek]

If you want to see some high-quality well preserved weapons you should be looking at the Hapsburg, Bourbon, Savoy etc house collections.

That's kind of comparable to the Japanese collections - arms made mainly to look as good as possible and which were almost never used and later became symbols of the dynasty

The random nobleman did not have any motivation to preserve his great-grandfather's old sword just so a bunch of tourists could gawk at it in the 21st century.

 

[dongle]

sorry if I came across as hostile.

No worries, ‘tis the Codex after all. :D

For what it's worth, I'm a katana fanboy, myself.

I heard you could cut a freight train in half with one. :twisted:

If you want to see some high-quality well preserved weapons you should be looking at the Hapsburg, Bourbon, Savoy etc house collections.

I have heard of those. Germans were pretty good at making the stuff too. Hopefully I’ll get a chance to see them one day. I’ve been in that part of the world years ago, but I wasn’t so interested in swords at the time.

 

[Data4]

For what it's worth, I'm a katana fanboy, myself.

I heard you could cut a freight train in half with one. :twisted

You can cut Chuck Norris in half with one! :!: :!:

-D4

 

[Crichton]

It depends on how the iron is forged. You can make i rock hard, but then it is brittle. Steel is best because it can bend and is srong, of course.

Iron, no matter how you temper it, is always soft and malleable.

High-carbon steel is hard (and hence brittle).

To get something that can bend well while retaining an edge you have to mix low-carbon steel (a lot like iron) with high carbon steel. They used to call it the damascus method.

no

I don't know why you do this to yourself bryce; you aren't that much more ignorant than the average person, but you just don't seem to want to accept any limitation on what topics you attempt to pontificate on.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/sword-making4.htm

 

[Balor]

Well, best results were attained by welding a hard edge on relatively soft blade.

 

[bryce777]

It depends on how the iron is forged. You can make i rock hard, but then it is brittle. Steel is best because it can bend and is srong, of course.

Iron, no matter how you temper it, is always soft and malleable.

High-carbon steel is hard (and hence brittle).

To get something that can bend well while retaining an edge you have to mix low-carbon steel (a lot like iron) with high carbon steel. They used to call it the damascus method.

no

I don't know why you do this to yourself bryce; you aren't that much more ignorant than the average person, but you just don't seem to want to accept any limitation on what topics you attempt to pontificate on.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/sword-making4.htm

Actually, you have pig iron which is very easy to make. I haven't used the 'no' response in a while so I just put it in there for shits and grins. You are mostly right, though. Pig iron is ok for some things, but not the best for weapons.

 

[kingcomrade]

I find it an empty defense of shitty Euro swords.

Shitty swords? What shitty swords? You saw some unpolished relics and suddenly they are shitty swords? Europeans had both the technology, resources, and the knowhow to make high-quality weapons, so it doesn't make sense that they would only produce crappy swords.

Just because they looked dinged or dented when you went to the museum isn't nearly a logical basis for deciding European swords were "shitty." I've already said that I've seen very high-quality, well-maintained blades, so what is your explanation? Am I lying? Was it a trick of the eye?

Do I hail him as a master chief based on what he -could- have made, if only he didn't work at McDonalds?

What? Since when is Europe the equivilent of a McDonalds? You haven't put forth any sort of reason why European swords suck except that they looked ugly to you.

 

[bryce777]

Where's that video of the 'surgical steel' katana being bumped against a table and shattering and cutting that dude.

I actually thought that the blades shown looked good and those are actual battle-ready swords not showpieces (which is what katanas mostly are).

 

[dongle]

Shitty swords? What shitty swords? You saw some unpolished relics and suddenly they are shitty swords?

I guess you missed my disclaimer about exaggerating the difference to illustrate a point?

I guess you missed the page I linked to describing one of the very swords I'm speaking of as being in "pristine condition"?

What you're quoting is a different point I'm try to make tho, try and follow along. :D Many posts here try and defend Euro swords because they were used differently, and there was a different prevailing attitude towards sword ownership and smithing. Balor points out they were designed less for cutting and more for bashing through plate armor. (this ignores of course how short an era full plate was in use, and how incredibly rare it was, side issue tho) You yourself say Euro swords were all about brute functionality. The point was made many times that Euro swords weren't cared for and cast aside when the owner was done bashing with it. The point was made ad infinitum that all a samurai ever did with his katana was wave it around (gently) and go "phwaaaar" to scare away peasants.

I don't try and dispute any of that. All makes perfect sense. Different needs and attitudes. The Japanese shared my love of something well-made and esthetically pleasing just for the sake of it, above and beyond banal functionality. They carefully crafted their swords, and loving cared for them even when they were obsolete. Euros were happy with cheap rusty iron fire pokers, much less bother and killed just as effectively. I can see where that's a sound battle strategy.

That sums up 99% of what ya'll are posting in defense of Euro swords. All makes sence. But none of it makes the Euros master sword smiths. Thus the "I find it an empty defense of shitty Euro swords."

I've already said that I've seen very high-quality, well-maintained blades, so what is your explanation?

Well, honestly, I do find it hard to believe. Simply because my experience is the exact opposite. As I said above tho, I'm open minded about it and look forwards to the day when I see differently for myself. Thus my questions about when and where you saw these. Someone saying "oh, they were just as good" isn't enough to sway me however, sorry.

Since when is Europe the equivilent of a McDonalds?

Er, was an analogy. Try and work with me a bit there. :D

 

[kingcomrade]

I never said that Europeans were happy bashing away with iron pokers, as a matter of fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I am disputing is that you seem to think there is some sort of technical deficiency in European smithing. They didn't make shitty blades. European cutting blades were just as resilient and sharp as katanas and the primary purpose of them was NOT to cut through armor. You can't cut through any sort of heavy armor, no matter how awesome your sword is. Two-handed swords were used like short spears to puncture armor (if you look at pictures of zweihanders, you'll notice a mini-hilt right above the main one. This was intended to be gripped for thrusting)

The only thing you've said to back this idea that European swords were shitty is that you saw a couple at a museum and they looked dented and unpolished or something.

 

[dongle]

<sigh> Never mind, I'm not going to type it all again. . . .

 

[Crichton]

Actually, you have pig iron which is very easy to make. I haven't used the 'no' response in a while so I just put it in there for shits and grins. You are mostly right, though. Pig iron is ok for some things, but not the best for weapons.

"Pig Iron" or 'wrought iron" is not iron at all, it's steel. It actually has a very high carbon content putting into the catagory of "high carbon steel".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_iron

 

[Section8]

I hear sometimes they even put whole pigs in it. Also, if you chuck a bit of it in a pentagram, along with some daemon bone, pumice, volcanic ash, brimstone and obsidian, along with 5 red candles, you can FUCK SHIT UP.

 

[Claw]

I was giving you the benefit of doubt 'till now, Crichton, but you are a moron.

Wrought iron is actually extremely pure iron. Soft and malleable, just as you described iron earlier. Pig iron isn't the same thing at all, but a high-carbon alloy, which isn't called steel either.
Steel is actually used to describe very pure iron alloys. Here's a link to the site you linked to yourself; maybe you should have read it more thoroughly first:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/iron4.htm

 

[Crichton]

Wrought iron is actually extremely pure iron. Soft and malleable, just as you described iron earlier. Pig iron isn't the same thing at all, but a high-carbon alloy, which isn't called steel either.
Steel is actually used to describe very pure iron alloys.

You're quite right about wrought iron, I meant cast iron, but in spite of all the people using steel to describe flexable iron alloys and describing any coke-iron product as iron, any carbon-iron alloy is steel, period.

 

[kingcomrade]

I hear sometimes they even put whole pigs in it. Also, if you chuck a bit of it in a pentagram, along with some daemon bone, pumice, volcanic ash, brimstone and obsidian, along with 5 red candles, you can FUCK SHIT UP.

You forgot the potash.

 

[bryce777]

Wrought iron is actually extremely pure iron. Soft and malleable, just as you described iron earlier. Pig iron isn't the same thing at all, but a high-carbon alloy, which isn't called steel either.
Steel is actually used to describe very pure iron alloys.

You're quite right about wrought iron, I meant cast iron, but in spite of all the people using steel to describe flexable iron alloys and describing any coke-iron product as iron, any carbon-iron alloy is steel, period.

The big difference is that steel has very few impurities and takes an extremely hot fire to make, and did not become widely used until log after iron.

Wrought iron is what tools have been made of since, well, for a long time.

 

[dongle]

Just remembered a few months back I met a real-live blacksmith. He mostly does gates and signs for stores. Really intricate stuff - like bamboo, flowers, leaves and the like made out of iron. Pretty cool being a craftsman like that in this day and age. Anyways, check out his gallery:
http://www.ironrivercreations.com

Hafta ask about swords, next time I see him.