Role-Player's RPG Roundtable #5: Take that RPG out of my MMO

[DarkSign]

Should there be a heavy handed regulation for such times when gaming and metagaming become blurred? Or should it be a free for all fest?

Well our game is attacking this from several points. I think Human Shield said it correctly:

Make "real" infomation from inside the game mean something. Secret info would an in-game item that could give bonuses to attack....Also add alot of flux to the game so info on boards is always outdated

In our p-a game its going to be about hacking, spying, and bribing for info. Not just from players but from NPC groups. Vital commodities like technological information, natural resources, and troop/police movements will be random enough so as to be surprising...and plugged into our dynamic system enough that they can be had.

This also means that missions and quests should have multiple ways of completing them much like console games do. When you have a stealth option, a run-and-gun option, and a "wiseguy"/speech option for completing the same mission, players are more apt to roleplay than when you have a simple FedEx quest that is done the same way 9000 times.

What do you feel could be done to bring actual roleplaying into MMORPGs, or how to make it have a more pronounced role? Or are you of the opinion that in computer RPGs this is largely impossible and each game should have its own self-regulation methods?

Well one way is to give players a skill-driven system with roleplay ability. In our game for example, characters can start roleplaying their character by using say a pistol instead of a big gun. Thats a start, but it goes further. At different % levels, players will get to choose feats (yes i was a PnP geek) that help them roleplay. Say you're at 45% - choose between akimbo pistols or improved grip. If you're playing a wild cowboy type youd choose akimbo pistols - wild but damaging. If youre the cold, tactical character, youd choose improved grip. See how the skill choices themselves aid the roleplaying?

Another is to have a faction system that really means something. So your guild has 3 people that have pked one town to death? Not only will the NPCs not sell to you, they actually cringe when you come near. But such influence might not extend two towns away where they havent heard from you.

Still another is making the use of emotes actually useful! Emotes should be clues to the shading of meaning. If you're balling up your fist while you are asking for money from an NPC it should have a different meaning than if you are on your knees. Actually performing this manual dexderity feat might not be easy..but that should be worked on.

"who wouldn't want to roleplay in an RPG?" is an excellent question. I think most people dont do things that take extra energy. Its late. Youve had a hard day...why should you have to speak in "thee"'s and "thou"'s? (fortunately in PA we dont have to worry about that) But I think what you do is create opportunities for roleplaying when the user feels like it...and give them a carrot to guide them. For example. Let's say you you see your local arms merchant NPC at a bar...not at his store. If you buy him a beer he might give you a better deal next time you see him! See there...youve taken a roleplay action and given it a real use. (I wont go into my whole NPCs with goals and realistic schedules schpeel)

And what about the methods of interacting with NPCs? The game Fascade has shown that natural language parsing can be done and it can be done reasonably well. The more freedom you are given to roleplay your character, the more of chance you will do it. Vampire:bloodlines type emotional indicators arent bad either.

OK. Ive rambled on enough. Good thread here. But Ive fixed all these problems [/quote]

 

[DarkSign]

Wow. Guess I killed the thread.

I = teh win.

Noe1 can top my iderz.

 

[metadigital]

...
I think Human Shield said it correctly:

Make "real" infomation from inside the game mean something. Secret info would an in-game item that could give bonuses to attack....Also add alot of flux to the game so info on boards is always outdated

In our p-a game its going to be about hacking, spying, and bribing for info. Not just from players but from NPC groups. Vital commodities like technological information, natural resources, and troop/police movements will be random enough so as to be surprising...and plugged into our dynamic system enough that they can be had.
...

That is a good idea in theory; how do you prevent meta-gaming, though? What's to stop someone from selling, say, the location of a secret in-game intel point to another player, on eBay?

...
This also means that missions and quests should have multiple ways of completing them much like console games do. When you have a stealth option, a run-and-gun option, and a "wiseguy"/speech option for completing the same mission, players are more apt to roleplay than when you have a simple FedEx quest that is done the same way 9000 times.
...

I like this idea a lot. This seems to be worth investing in for a developer, because the more ways there are to achieve Goal A, the more freeform can be the roleplay. For example, one might not be a total frontal assault tank: a bit more Sam Fisher covert ops, with the ability to function as a tank in limited circumstances (running out of the building when it's about to blow up, gunning the remaining guards). Technically falling between the tank and the stealth option, much replayability, I think, lies in the granularity of the methods.

...

What do you feel could be done to bring actual roleplaying into MMORPGs, or how to make it have a more pronounced role? Or are you of the opinion that in computer RPGs this is largely impossible and each game should have its own self-regulation methods?

Well one way is to give players a skill-driven system with roleplay ability.[1] In our game for example, characters can start roleplaying their character by using say a pistol instead of a big gun. Thats a start, but it goes further. At different % levels, players will get to choose feats (yes i was a PnP geek) that help them roleplay. Say you're at 45% - choose between akimbo pistols or improved grip. If you're playing a wild cowboy type youd choose akimbo pistols - wild but damaging. If youre the cold, tactical character, youd choose improved grip. See how the skill choices themselves aid the roleplaying?

[2]Another is to have a faction system that really means something. So your guild has 3 people that have pked one town to death? Not only will the NPCs not sell to you, they actually cringe when you come near. But such influence might not extend two towns away where they havent heard from you.

[3]Still another is making the use of emotes actually useful! Emotes should be clues to the shading of meaning. If you're balling up your fist while you are asking for money from an NPC it should have a different meaning than if you are on your knees. Actually performing this manual dexderity feat might not be easy..but that should be worked on.
...

1. Good idea to enhance roleplaying. I don't see how it prevents meta-gaming.
2. I concur. Factions, alliances and reputation are all mandatory for roleplay.
   It is patently ridiculous to kill everything that moves, step over a demarcation line (read: town border), and then talk to everyone instead of fighting. Morrowind managed to do this well.
3. I agree, to a point. I am all for adding contextual cues to the interaction. I don't want to have to button mash like a Japanese console RPG in order to do it. There needs to be a concomitant advance in I/O technology.

...
"who wouldn't want to roleplay in an RPG?" is an excellent question. I think most people dont do things that take extra energy. Its late. Youve had a hard day...why should you have to speak in "thee"'s and "thou"'s? (fortunately in PA we dont have to worry about that) But I think what you do is create opportunities for roleplaying when the user feels like it...and give them a carrot to guide them. For example. Let's say you you see your local arms merchant NPC at a bar...not at his store. If you buy him a beer he might give you a better deal next time you see him! See there...you've taken a roleplay action and given it a real use. (I wont go into my whole NPCs with goals and realistic schedules schpeel)
...

I don't agree with the "It's late" defence. I would argue that if you don't want to play a game that involves the investment of significant effort, like an RPG, then play Halo instead.

Your arms merchant in the pub is a Good Ideaâ„¢.

...
And what about the methods of interacting with NPCs? The game Fascade has shown that natural language parsing can be done and it can be done reasonably well. The more freedom you are given to roleplay your character, the more of chance you will do it. Vampire:bloodlines type emotional indicators aren't bad either.

OK. Ive rambled on enough. Good thread here. But Ive fixed all these problems

I would like to understand your reference to Fascade (Façade?); is that something like this?

If you have achieved as much as you say, then you have indeed helped to promote roleplaying.

 

[DarkSign]

"That is a good idea in theory; how do you prevent meta-gaming, though? What's to stop someone from selling, say, the location of a secret in-game intel point to another player, on eBay? "

Nothing actually, but it doesnt hurt our gameplay...in fact it just makes a betrayal that much more hidden.

The thing is...youd have to have a QUICK turn around time on something like that because such info will always be changing. Might be more work than its worth to put up on a website.

"There needs to be a concomitant advance in I/O technology [to facilitate the use of non-text communication i.e. emotes]."

I totally agree. I think that the next HUGE leaps in this type of medium will either come from brave souls that require the purchase of certain hardware, or when the entire gaming industry as a whole shifts hardware forward.

Ive heard that a lot of work is being done with the EyeToy 2.0 to make it a great way to game. I hope so because I can imagine a ton of interaction that would use that bad boy.

"I don't agree with the "It's late" defence. I would argue that if you don't want to play a game that involves the investment of significant effort, like an RPG, then play Halo instead."

In a perfect world, people would play games for the right reason, but Im sorry they dont always. In otherwords, you cant make someone play a game the way its intended. Its a fact of life that people come home tired and dont want to always be "in character." Often times that's why people solo in MMOs...to do things their own way.

"I would like to understand your reference to Fascade"

Well Fascade is more about the ability to type in words that you would naturally say, and have the computer understand the shade of emotional meaning you meant.

Although, the link you posted is a lot like another part of our process...which is an automatic storyline engine that takes in-game data on the needs, wants, actions of NPCs and players and generates new quests based on this. Dont confuse this with a random mission generator that splits out 2 guards instead of 3 in an instanced zone. We're going for a real dynamic storyline that's computer created. Its a tall order, but the time is right.

"If you have achieved as much as you say, then you have indeed helped to promote roleplaying."

We're in the process, nowhere close to finished. Thanks though. We're listening to people like you and forums like the Codex to make sure we do it right.

What else would you like to see in such a system?

 

[DarkSign]

As much as I try to ask open-ended questions I seem to be a thread killer

 

[metadigital]

Just thinking ... you ask BIG questions ..!