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Untapped potentional, NWN2 tidbits

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,850
Location
Lulea, Sweden
First let me warn that it will be some light spoilers in this, while I will try to keep out direct references to the game at least the parts about the keep may be spoilerish.

If there is some things I noted several times in NWN2 then it had been those moments I saw something that really could have been great, innovative or even a game in itself. But alas it either was not or not fully as great as it could have been.

Training/Apprentice

There was this moment where you told or could tell a character that you would be his/her trainer, train that person to be a hero/choosen one/adventurer/asshole. I was directly thinking "cool", too moments later realising that person was in fact a fighter the same level as me. any hope for any conversations as to affect that characters development was also crushed.

Now here is something where they really could have made something, not just with this person in the example, but as a gamefeature in a RPG. Having someone as a trainee or apprentice, learn them what you can (by "training" and conversations) or affect them to learn what you think is best. If we talk about a youngish person or as for that person really looking up to you then you should be able to affect their personality. while I rather have that as an compassionate/joker/rude than the classic "good/evil" (read: don't want money/want money up front). There is so many ways this could tie into the gameplay and maybe for once we would really get a emotional connection to that character and fear any possible demise.

Keep, Lord of the lands

Don't get me wrong here, I liked the things they done with the keep (in the game I am about to come to the conclusion of that) and they gone further than most things we see as for that. Of course there is a BUT! There are to few real choices. when it comes to people working for you I think it would have been best with the "should I choose him or her for that position"? I would want that throughout, in NWN2 there is basically only two choices like that. Lets go on, there should be choices what to bring and fill in on all parts of the castle, choices that holds important consequences. In NWN2 I am sure things with the castle will look pretty much the same every time you play, sure you can be slightly evilish with taxes and how to treat the population, but your castle and your men will be upgraded in the same way unless you are tight with your money.

Herein comes the problem with a Adventure party financing building a castle, their more or less endless supply of gold (only limited by the lack of content and no random events) take away so important decisions to "in what order do I want to build stuff?".

To go beyond NWN2 I would say it could be made a whole game built around this aspect, have events after how you play an how you lord your keep/land. Have revolts if you are mean, have invasions if you are to rich or weak. Have choices that leans your keep/land towards being better in some ways and not as good in others. have even a court, make and change laws, be a hypocrit, hire men with good and bad traits, juggle the treasury. Yup, I could write a long design document around a game built entirerly around being a lord. why not even play a dynasty? NWN2 tapped into the pool of all the fun and cool things you could do, but was restrained by resources/story.

Crafting

Yesterday I played around a lot with crafting. Now while I was frustrated about not planning my characters well enough for this, I instead came thinking about the lack of experimenting allowed. As it is in NWN2 now there are a couple of recipes that gives certain abilities, quite many. You usually put together a piece of jewelry/gem, one or two pieces of essence and an armor/weapon/material, last use a spell.

What I would want is something more flexible, let me give an example with a magic sword:

Put a normal sword to be enchanted.
you then put a gem/jewelry there.
if ruby = fire damage, if emerald = acid damage, if rogue stone = Damage undead
After that you put a essence there, the power of the essence(s) affect how powerful the damage effect will be.

The more powerful you try to make it, the more skill do you need to succed. I would find this much more elegant than the implemented system.

all for now.
 

JrK

Prophet
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,764
Location
Speaking to the Sea
I would like for any game to stick to the PnP rules. Look at ToEE, every rule-aspect of that game r0xx0rzed the b0xx0r. Crafting was awesome, combat was awesome, spells were needed and tactical.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,914
Only happens in turn based combat JrK. And apparently Turn based is so yesterday!
 

LCJr.

Erudite
Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
2,469
kris said:
First let me warn that it will be some light spoilers in this, while I will try to keep out direct references to the game at least the parts about the keep may be spoilerish.

If there is some things I noted several times in NWN2 then it had been those moments I saw something that really could have been great, innovative or even a game in itself. But alas it either was not or not fully as great as it could have been.

Training/Apprentice

There was this moment where you told or could tell a character that you would be his/her trainer, train that person to be a hero/choosen one/adventurer/asshole. I was directly thinking "cool", too moments later realising that person was in fact a fighter the same level as me. any hope for any conversations as to affect that characters development was also crushed.

Now here is something where they really could have made something, not just with this person in the example, but as a gamefeature in a RPG. Having someone as a trainee or apprentice, learn them what you can (by "training" and conversations) or affect them to learn what you think is best. If we talk about a youngish person or as for that person really looking up to you then you should be able to affect their personality. while I rather have that as an compassionate/joker/rude than the classic "good/evil" (read: don't want money/want money up front). There is so many ways this could tie into the gameplay and maybe for once we would really get a emotional connection to that character and fear any possible demise.

Keep, Lord of the lands

Don't get me wrong here, I liked the things they done with the keep (in the game I am about to come to the conclusion of that) and they gone further than most things we see as for that. Of course there is a BUT! There are to few real choices. when it comes to people working for you I think it would have been best with the "should I choose him or her for that position"? I would want that throughout, in NWN2 there is basically only two choices like that. Lets go on, there should be choices what to bring and fill in on all parts of the castle, choices that holds important consequences. In NWN2 I am sure things with the castle will look pretty much the same every time you play, sure you can be slightly evilish with taxes and how to treat the population, but your castle and your men will be upgraded in the same way unless you are tight with your money.

Herein comes the problem with a Adventure party financing building a castle, their more or less endless supply of gold (only limited by the lack of content and no random events) take away so important decisions to "in what order do I want to build stuff?".

To go beyond NWN2 I would say it could be made a whole game built around this aspect, have events after how you play an how you lord your keep/land. Have revolts if you are mean, have invasions if you are to rich or weak. Have choices that leans your keep/land towards being better in some ways and not as good in others. have even a court, make and change laws, be a hypocrit, hire men with good and bad traits, juggle the treasury. Yup, I could write a long design document around a game built entirerly around being a lord. why not even play a dynasty? NWN2 tapped into the pool of all the fun and cool things you could do, but was restrained by resources/story.

Crafting

Yesterday I played around a lot with crafting. Now while I was frustrated about not planning my characters well enough for this, I instead came thinking about the lack of experimenting allowed. As it is in NWN2 now there are a couple of recipes that gives certain abilities, quite many. You usually put together a piece of jewelry/gem, one or two pieces of essence and an armor/weapon/material, last use a spell.

What I would want is something more flexible, let me give an example with a magic sword:

Put a normal sword to be enchanted.
you then put a gem/jewelry there.
if ruby = fire damage, if emerald = acid damage, if rogue stone = Damage undead
After that you put a essence there, the power of the essence(s) affect how powerful the damage effect will be.

The more powerful you try to make it, the more skill do you need to succed. I would find this much more elegant than the implemented system.

all for now.

R00fles!
 

LCJr.

Erudite
Joined
Jan 16, 2003
Messages
2,469
Sorry couldn't resist. I just wanted to see what it felt like to be a dumbfuck for a minute.

It's boringly easy since it doesn't require any thought and only a tiny bit of typing. Oh well got that out of my system. Carry on.
 

Solaris

Scholar
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
173
Location
UK
NWN2 frustrates me more because of the potential it has missed as well. I hate buying games that you see could have been real gems if the thing had been developed more and not rushed out the door.

I think the NWN devs have already admitted omitted quite a bit of stuff, like more involved companions etc. Dunno if they'll ever flesh the game out with patches, I doubt it...there is so many damn bugs that alone will keep them busy for while to come.

Most likely it will be left to modders to try and save its ass.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
5,934
Location
Being a big gay tubesteak hahahahahahahahag
Solaris said:
NWN2 frustrates me more because of the potential it has missed as well. I hate buying games that you see could have been real gems if the thing had been developed more and not rushed out the door.

I think the NWN devs have already admitted omitted quite a bit of stuff, like more involved companions etc. Dunno if they'll ever flesh the game out with patches, I doubt it...there is so many damn bugs that alone will keep them busy for while to come.

Most likely it will be left to modders to try and save its ass.

Since modders do quests/areas/dialogue/NPCs etc from the ground up, that shouldn't be hard.
 

Solaris

Scholar
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
173
Location
UK
Admiral jimbob said:
Since modders do quests/areas/dialogue/NPCs etc from the ground up, that shouldn't be hard.

Well yeah, it worked nice with NWN1, and is something to look forward to for sure. I just wish the core game wasn't so gimped to start with though. It makes me feel I have to wait another year or so before I can play this thing properly. Plus, from what I've read on their forums, the new Toolset is not as user friendly or as stable as the old one...hopefully they'll rectify that situation too.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2006
Messages
5,934
Location
Being a big gay tubesteak hahahahahahahahag
Solaris said:
Admiral jimbob said:
Since modders do quests/areas/dialogue/NPCs etc from the ground up, that shouldn't be hard.

Well yeah, it worked nice with NWN1, and is something to look forward to for sure. I just wish the core game wasn't so gimped to start with though. It makes me feel I have to wait another year or so before I can play this thing properly. Plus, from what I've read on their forums, the new Toolset is not as user friendly or as stable as the old one...hopefully they'll rectify that situation too.

Not user-friendly? How so? If that means they've removed the retarded "quest building wizards" and the like, I don't mind, since I never used them anyway.
 

Solaris

Scholar
Joined
Aug 4, 2006
Messages
173
Location
UK
Admiral jimbob said:
Not user-friendly? How so? If that means they've removed the retarded "quest building wizards" and the like, I don't mind, since I never used them anyway.

Nothing that stands out on its own, just the convoluted and unintuitive way it goes about stuff. I just remember the old toolset had a better flow to it. Obsidian seem to be fixing things in it though, so hopefully its not really going to be an issue for too long. Seasoned modders will probably get to grips with it soon enough I guess.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
" Look at ToEE, every rule-aspect of that game r0xx0rzed the b0xx0r."

LOL You must have blindly ignored the 100s of rules changes Troika amde in TOEE from pnp.

R00fles!
 

JrK

Prophet
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,764
Location
Speaking to the Sea
What kind of mutant are you? You must have 100 fingered hands so bad are you at counting.

@Ladonna: TURN BASED OWNS HEATHENS! *smites
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
The keep stuff and the crafting are limited by the mod nature of the game. They feel like surfacey scripting-only solutions. The crafting should really have a dedicated UI, some kind of shared inventory and a recipe journal. The keep works fairly well until you figure out how time gets mapped, and in a more integrated game the mapping would have been more interesting.

The trial makes up for a lot, though. I want to know who was responsible for it at Obsidian.
 

sabishii

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
1,325
Location
Gatornation
Zomg said:
The keep stuff and the crafting are limited by the mod nature of the game. They feel like surfacey scripting-only solutions. The crafting should really have a dedicated UI, some kind of shared inventory and a recipe journal. The keep works fairly well until you figure out how time gets mapped, and in a more integrated game the mapping would have been more interesting.
Yeah, I always think about how much better it could've been done, but then I remember that it's an engine that needs to be easily modded by others and I guess they couldn't have done much better considering that limit.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
The lack of time in the game isn't only a problem for the Keep; it's really frustrating overall. (Tho, yeah, the Keep ends up feeling really artificial once you figure out the time trigger.) I hope chronology isn't totally excised from the base engine.

Crafting had a downside in ToEE - it's extremely time-consuming. That downside was superficial in ToEE because time basically made no difference, but it at least followed the rules in this sense. If NWN2 had chosen to do so, tho, it could've tied your crafter to the crafting process for a period of time, preventing you from using them in adventures - and it could have actually tied the King of Shadows' progress to, you know, time rather than your own pace at finishing plot events, which would've added a strategic element to crafting. (Do you have time to do it? How much time? What items can you craft in the available time, and is it worth it? Etc.)

Then again, who expects any logical treatment of time in a game that allows you to rest to full health in only 5 seconds? :lol:
 

Elhoim

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Oct 27, 2006
Messages
2,879
Location
San Isidro, Argentina
What I greatly dislike about this game is the uberloot and uberxp, and the insta-heal that rest is.
 

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