1eyedking Vampire: The Masquerade - goth cringe or Christian apologetic?

[Matalarata]

If you take the original KotE books as Gospel Truth

Well... One doesn't need to take everything for truth. Point is, they have a much clearer idea of the (still very hazy) timeline and what exactly happened. It definitely is due to KoE being one of the latest iteration of the history itself but it links up perfectly with the Age of Sorrow and all other topics, like the Impergium, the other Supernatural Creatures have in their lore.

Ofc they see themselves as inheritors of the Wan Xian and they use a chinese term to indentify them. It really proves nothing tho, they just remember and have tangible proofs there was "something" back then and that the rules of the game itself were quite different.

 

[Lambach]

Well... One doesn't need to take everything for truth. Point is, they have a much clearer idea of the (still very hazy) timeline and what exactly happened. It definitely is due to KoE being one of the latest iteration of the history itself but it links up perfectly with the Age of Sorrow and all other topics, like the Impergium, the other Supernatural Creatures have in their lore.

Ofc they see themselves as inheritors of the Wan Xian and they use a chinese term to indentify them. It really proves nothing tho, they just remember and have tangible proofs there was "something" back then and that the rules of the game itself were quite different.

True, but if I recall correctly (though my memory is fuzzy, haven't touched that stuff in years), that sense of superiority is backed by actual game mechanics as well. Their Shintai and other supernatural abilities tend to be noticeably more powerful than their Kindred counterparts. Basically, the only advantage Kindred have is being able to Embrace at will rather than waiting for someone to randomly raise from the dead and the ability to create Ghouls.

tl;dr - I'm almost certain the KotE writers had full intentions to make the Kuei-Jin the superior version of Kindred, because katanas and samurai and ninjas are just soooooooooooo cool UwU desu ne, but lore-wise, as with every other WoD book, the details are given from the perspective of the supernaturals that the book is about and are never the definitive truth, like you said.

 

[Matalarata]

Their Shintai and other supernatural abilities tend to be noticeably more powerful than their Kindred counterparts. Basically, the only advantage Kindred have is being able to Embrace at will rather than waiting for someone to randomly raise from the dead and the ability to create Ghouls.

Yes. In so much that my pet theory is Caine and the antediluvian are, in reality, eastern kindred that found specific Shin to propagate their blood to others and create armies.

This isn't entirely true however, Low Generation Dominate is a bitch, Kuei-Jin have some protection against that but it's leaky and their own mind fuckery powers come with a lot of additional caveats. Then there are disciplines like Vicissitude, which amplifies exponentially the versatility of ghouls and what one can do with his own children, especially for lawless practicioners inside Sabbath. Obtenebration (Lasombra) is the definition of an edgy discipline that doesn't actually do much in game, compared to others, but I distinctly remember it possessing a number of effects that look almost specifically tailored to fuck up Yang-rich Kuei-Jin and so on.

I always intepreted it as, the KotE have a more powerful and structured society and manage their internal struggle with much less fuss, that's why westerners never had a chance to properly gain a foothold there. As for the opposite happening, any such endevour will probably be backed by some powerful entity, maybe not a Kuei-Jin but something else entirely, unbeknowst even to the operators. As such they have a fighting chance but the battle entirely remains to be fought. Kindreds are unparalleled when it comes to send waves of ghouls an neonates with low intensity of resources needed and those are effective at wearing down even resourceful opponents in WoD. Kindreds are powerful, after all.

 

[Lambach]

Yes. In so much that my pet theory is Caine and the antediluvian are, in reality, eastern kindred that found specific Shin to propagate their blood to others and create armies.

Dunno about that, but it's been more-or-less confirmed Saulot made the trek to the far east at some point in time. From the Wiki:

The name Saulot is unknown to the Wan Kuei, who generally view the barbarian "Kindred" with their homicidal farmer stories as so much unenlightened trash. However, the Wan Kuei do know of Zao-Lat, a student of Xue, a thief, a despicable creature who benefited from Xue's compassion, learned Ch'iuh Muh, sat at the feet of the master and stole his wisdom. Zao-Lat was not one of the Wan Kuei, and when he left, he left behind his messes.

Now inhabiting the East are the two families of Zao-Lat, the Wu-Zao. These two families are descended from two living beings twisted by Zao-Lat: Zao-Xue the scholar and Zao-Zei the thief were once captured by the Wan Kuei, but escaped and their progeny have since popped up throughout the Middle Kingdom. As for Zao-Lat, he has not been seen in millennia, and the world is better off for it.

The Kuei-jin never refer to Zao-Lat without some sort of epithet attached to the end of the name; the most common is "Zao-Lat the Traitor".

This isn't entirely true however, Low Generation Dominate is a bitch, Kuei-Jin have some protection against that but it's leaky and their own mind fuckery powers come with a lot of additional caveats. Then there are disciplines like Vicissitude, which amplifies exponentially the versatility of ghouls and what one can do with his own children, especially for lawless practicioners inside Sabbath.

The problem with Low Generation Kindred using high-level Disciplines to fuck the Kuei-Jin up is that most of them are inactive and in Torpor, and those that aren't would never risk any sort of direct confrontation. Other than maybe some particularly bloodthirsty high-ranking Sabbat.

Obtenebration (Lasombra) is the definition of an edgy discipline that doesn't actually do much in game

Gotta disagree with you on this one. You haven't played VtM until you've used Shroud of Night to terrify the shit out of a squad of hunters, then used Arms of the Abyss to strangle them all to death.

I always intepreted it as, the KotE have a more powerful and structured society and manage their internal struggle with much less fuss, that's why westerners never had a chance to properly gain a foothold there.

That is true, from what I remember, there's significantly less backstabbing, dirty politics and the like among the Kue-Jin, at least against each other.

 

[Matalarata]

The problem with Low Generation Kindred using high-level Disciplines to fuck the Kuei-Jin up is that most of them are inactive and in Torpor, and those that aren't would never risk any sort of direct confrontation. Other than maybe some particularly bloodthirsty high-ranking Sabbat.

Yes. Officially. Then again the best way to protect oneself from an army of angry descendants is exactly to make them believe one is out of the game. And in the first iterations of the discipline it's specified that even while in Torpor, truly high levels of the discipline do affect the world still. All conjectures and pet theories obv, this is the stuff you weave end-chronicle stories with, usually.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. You haven't played VtM until you've used Shroud of Night to terrify the shit out of a squad of hunters, then used Arms of the Abyss to strangle them all to death.

Nah, I did. I both played Lasombra and Storytelled one in a long chronicle, they are cool and the discipline itself is def useful. What I meant is it lacks oomph when compared to other, much more abusable shit, especially when used against other supernaturals. Still cool tho and has good sinergy with Potence. Also Lasombra have Dominate, there's really not much to discuss here. Good clan all around.


Nice to find someone able to discuss the overarching WoD setting proper, from time to time. I like VtM as any other bloke but fucketh me, it devoured all that was.

 

[Lambach]

Nice to find someone able to discuss the overarching WoD setting proper, from time to time. I like VtM as any other bloke but fucketh me, it devoured all that was.

Well it is the best setting, overall, both lore-wise (if you ignore all the dumb splatbooks and similar bloat, specially stuff from the late nineties and after) and mechanically. Werewolf is just D&D for furries set in WoD, Changeling is pretty gay, Demon is incredibly meh and you can tell it was mostly an afterthought for the writers etc. Mage is just nuts, I can't imagine Storytelling a Chronicle for that if I were doing it with creative and imaginative players, the abuse potential is off the charts. I once read a post from a guy who explained how the rules technically (unless specifically forbidden by the Storyteller) allow a Mage with just 3 dots in Space Arcana to essentially destroy the planet, by opening a stable portal from a nearby location to the core of the Sun. And the Mage would only take a couple levels of Bashing damage from Paradox for it. :D

 

[Matalarata]

Werewolf is just D&D for furries

Blasphemy! You clearly never danced the full extent of the black spiral and came back to tell the tale... Werewolf is probably my fav. But I see the unfortunate modern furry connotation and many did indeed write lousy modules and adventures for it, back in the day. Werewolf is at its best when you stay exactly on the line and play urban chronicles with the occasional foray into the wild (or Wyld, if you prefer).

Changeling is pretty gay

Eh, agree on that. I played it but you really need to edgy-fy and play select Fey to make it work imho, else it degrades fast into nonsense. It was a short chronicle and def not my best.

Demon is incredibly meh

We don't speak about that. There's no such thing.

Mage is just nuts, I can't imagine Storytelling a Chronicle for that if I were doing it with creative and imaginative players

Been there, done that. One of the systems I'll never ever intend to play a chronicle into. Fucketh me, talk about Storyteller regret and having to rule lawyer things mid-campaign because otherwise the game just breaks. Interesting idea but it's best to keep it for very short bouts, imho. Even with players completely into RP and uninterested in power play, it's simly too open and intrinsecally broken to sustain a chronicle.

Space sphere is nuts. Force sphere is OP as fuck, if you know physics and understand the idea is you can simply manipulate and generate "force" (lol). Life sphere is OP af, nuff' said. Time? 'k. That at least is restricted. A Verbena with Life 2 Force 1 can reliably initate a pandemic, just to give you an example. The only way for the Storyteller to stop that is to have another NPC step in and basically cockblock the player. Paradox is a joke and too easily manipulated by clever players, it hits hard, sure but you can derail a story with little to no chance of redemption before your char is out of order.

You need a storyteller with Steely balls for Awakening, one that legit is able to put thousands of details into a sandbox, 'coz no linear writing can surive an encounter with a mage, ever.

And the Mage would only take a couple levels of Bashing damage from Paradox for it. :D

Nu. He'd die horribly, b'cuz in what you describe there's literally billions of observers to an unnatural act, no matter how little time it takes for the Mage to perform it. Point is, if a player decides to do it and finds a way to formulate a spell that is whitin the power of his or her spheres, you can only apply some sort of heavy handed intervention as Storyteller and that sucks wet Donkey Balls. I shouls probably explain this better but it's all about only having hard counters and always in the same vein.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Back to vampires theme. If you could choose a city to have a vampire : The masquarede game (official or spiritual successor), which city would you chose?

Wien.

t. Tremere

Guess that would make you a Wiener, but then you're already on the mage class.

 

[EvilWolf]

Mercy. Are you actually arguing that there has been a global flood that almost wiped out the entirety of mankind? Prey, tell us where all that water came from. If all currently frozen water on the planet melted and ran out into the oceans, the sea level would rise some 70 meters (200 ft). That's it, there is no other water on Earth that could raise the oceans further. So a Biblical flood is utterly impossible. It doesn't matter how long or heavily it rains, all that water ultimately comes from the oceans.

Yes, a 70 meters' rise would devastate coastal regions, but it wouldn't kill anybody. When the oceans rose at the quickest rate at the end of the last Ice Age, they rose about 2.5 or 3.0 meters per century. Today the oceans are only 8 meters below the highest levels known for the last 200,000 years.

You're probably also skeptical about the asteroid that made the dinosaurs extinct.