Why I don't consider Obsidian to be special.

Disclaimer:
So, while we could use some more drama than "Jaesun is a faggy moderator", this thread is not intended to cause drama (feel free to flame anyway). It's more a case of newfags coming in and being all astonished that somebody could consider Obsidian Entertainment to be less than The Saviours of the RPG genre (TM). So instead of repeating arguments in the future I'll just link to this thread. If we had a working "search" I'd look up old argument threads and link them here... Perhaps at some stage I'll be even more bored than now and look for them via google. Or wormfood uses shannow.txt for something useful for once.
I'll list and rate games from Bethesda, Bioware and Obsidian, then I'll give an average score for every dev studio and make them comparable. Those three because they're still around and the most compared and discussed on the codex. The scores have a scale of 0 - 10 and take "enjoyment per buck" into account. Expansions are taken into account if I rate them as being a "whole" game in their own right. "The codex" is "the loudest opinion", not something everybody here shares, not neccessarily the opnion of the majority.

So, Bethsidianware's games (no particular order):
Baldur's Gate 6/10:
Enjoyable game till the end. Gameplay is sufficient if hampered by not being TB. Story has some holes and facepalms but is ok. Companions are interesting if a little lifeless. Some good encounters. Decent writing.

Baldur's Gate2 8/10:
Improved BG in almost all aspects. Perfect amount of companion banter and interaction. Some excellent encounters. Some really shitty dialogues (but I played the German version and thought it was because of bad translation). Sappy romances (luckily not a focus).
Throne of Baal 6/10:
Suffers from rail roading and high level D&D.

NWN OC 4/10:
Ugly graphics, single-character D&D, some really bad parts in the campaign but not as atrocious as the codex always makes it out to be. 3rd ed is more fun to fiddle with --> better character building. I don't count modules, since Bio didn't make them.
SoU 5/10:
Slightly better than OC.
HotU 8/10:
Despite all NWN's shortcoming fun dungeoncrawling and character-building.

Jade Empire (1/10):
Shitty console shit, didn't play.

KotOR 3/10:
Shitty gameplay, short, shitty "suck up to companions" mechanic, shitty story. consolish.

KotOR2 2/10:
see KotOR + shitty Kreia, Star Wars lore rape and only 2/3 finished, Bio's sloppy seconds. Better writing, though.

Arena:
Didn't play:
Daggerfall:
Didn't play
Morrowind 7/10:
Enjoyable hiking game with some truly fantastic ebvironments. Interesting but broken Alchemy/Enchantment/Character system. Stupid wildlife. noticable level scaling.

Oblivion (2/10):
Didn't play, but I read about shitty level-scaling, VOs and consolishness.

FO3 3/10:
No fallout game, but I enjoyed the first 8 hours or so. Still shitty character system, gameplay and exploration. Atrocious UI. Some facepalm dialogue (but not as uniformly bad as the codex always claims) and story. Ending particularly bad.

Dragon age 4/10:
First third was enjoyable. Some improvements in companion interactions, gameplay mechanics and graphics. All fucked up by stupid design-decisions in the same areas. Origins are good, boring and facepalm (depending on which one is chosen). Writing is ok. Story, dialogues and questlines are riddled by inconsistencies and logic fails, especially in the later parts. Some good/challenging encounters, overall gameplay gets boring fast due to trash-mobs.

ME 2/10:
atrocious gameplay. Could be enteraining if 4 hours long, played when drunk and Renegade options.

ME2 (2/10):
didn't play, but don't expect it to be better.

NWN2 OC 5/10:
good for one play-through. After that the bad engine and camera become too aggravating to further ignore. Bio's sloppy seconds. Riddled with bugs. Some quest-relevant ones due to the game simply not being finished/polished. The two things the codex likes most the Trial and Ammon are actually the shittiest parts of the game. The thing the codex bitches most about (apart from engine and camera) the orc caves aren't actually much different or worse than the rest.
MotB 5/10:
interesting story, decent writing. Same shitty buggy engine. badly implemented epic levels. Spiriteater-mechanic good idea badly implemented. Shitty end. I don't like Rashemen. Riddled with game-mechanic/-world inconsistencies.
SoZ 6/10:
Player generated party. Attempt at something truly new and good. Sadly again badly implemented. Engine limitations (buffs dissapearing with area changes, something even BG(2) did better) become even more obvious. Some noce encounters. Nice end-dungeon.

AP (1/10):
Didn't play, but looks like an especially buggy poor man's ME.

FO3:NV 5/10:
Beth's sloppy seconds. same shitty gameplay and charactersystem as FO3. Too many "go back and forth, fetch this and that" quest. Some retarded parts but overall good gameworld/quests/factions. Skills more usefull than in FO3. Better writing but every npc bore you with his lifestory. Better exploration and challenge than FO3.


DA2 (2/10):
Didn't play, sounded like a royal fuck-up.

DS3 0/10:
the laziest port I've ever seen. Atrocious controls and gameplay, boring character system, more franchise rape than FO3. Story: Begins with the player running into a burning building, slicing through assassins like a hot knife through butter after they killed 40 would-be herores. All the while finding notes your master left for you strewn accross random spots in a burning building...

TL;DR:

So, the results:
Bioware: 4,4/10 (4,1/10)
Bethesda: 5/10 (4/10)
Obsidian: 3,8/10 (3,4/10)

In overall comparison of the games I played Obsidian comes out lowest. When considering games I didn't play but consider to be able to judge anyway Obsidian comes out lowest. When considering only the last game released Obsidian comes out lowest.
Beth has the best average, Bio the best rated games and Obsidian the worst rated game.

None of you fanboys has to agree with anything here. But what I expect is that you stop pestering me by trying to convince me of Obsidian's holyness. My opinion is set and grounded in reasons. I will not simply ignore certain games or flaws simply to make Obsidian look better, even if I found them far more likable than Beth or Bio (before they released DS3 ).

M:

Shannow said:

My opinion is set and grounded in reasons.

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LOL. Opinions grounded in reasons you "forged" based on hearsay and second hand popular opinion. And all you can present is a bunch of meaningless numbers. You suck. This post in its entirety is worse than all the worst newfags put together. I used to have more respect for you as a fellow Codexer but after this...

So, back to a more "meaty" (hur-hur-hurrrr) subject: Fuck Jaesun, fucking faggot scum. Jaesun the gayson.

Who are you and why should we care about your opinion?

You played BG2 with german translation?
Why would you do that?

Didnt read but the OP is a faggoted ESF refugee (-10/10)

But Obsidian is special. They're special in that way. What else would you call a company with Chris "Dead Space made turn-based combat a power" Avellone, Feargus "Isometric camera is too PC, too last gen" Urquhart and Josh "I love minigames, DS3 owns, Deus Ex: Human Revolution has good cover mechanics" Sawyer?

6/10 Semi decent troll. Raged a little bit, but would not rage again.

Zed said:

You played BG2 with german translation?
Why would you do that?

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Because the German dubbing in BG2 is actually a lot better than the English.

Imoen sounds like a lttle annoying bitch, that bald hamster guy just totally off, and Irenicus like a grandma.

Do humanity a favor a play the German version.

If you're not fluent in German, it means you're a barbarian.

Shannow said:

Jade Empire (1/10):
didn't play.

Oblivion (2/10):
Didn't play,

ME2 (2/10):
didn't play

AP (1/10):
Didn't play

DA2 (2/10):
Didn't play

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Man, look how fast you are discrediting yourself. I didn't play most of these games either, but I keep the good sense to keep my mouth shut on games I have not played. By the way, yes, I also have not played them because I think they will be likely bad, but I am not going to go all, "This game is so awful and with terrible mechanics. 1/10, didn't play".

Many games sound good on paper, but are bad in practice. Many games sound bad on paper, but are good in practice. It's why one shouldn't base such sweeping opinions based on previews and other people's testimonies.

Posters like these, in such moments, are what is wrong with RPG Codex. This has always been the problem with RPG Codex, ever since I came here. Dark Individual/The Walking Dude was the worst, with this whole "I didn't play this game, hence it was terrible." Even intelligent posters like ghostdog pull this nonsense sometimes, so I don't know why.

agree with all except f03( i'd give like a 6 lol) and nv i'd give like a 7


but the rating games you didn't play, are you honestly retarded?

Obsidian is certainly a special company, but not exactly in a good way. They're the only crew with such a wealth of talent and such a role-playing pedigree that has delivered so many games with huge hurdles to general enjoyment. I couldn't recommend any one of their games (that I've played) without serious reservations, and that isn't exactly the mark of a great studio. I guess lists are the "in-thing" here, so I'll give my go.

KOTOR2---Decent writing, fun story, and it's nice to see a different perspective on the force other than it being seen as the best thing ever to happen to the universe. Unfortunately, it's filled with a ton of combat, all of which is pretty much trash filler. I can't recall a single interesting fight (though I can recall laughably bad ones) and that's not a good thing for a game with so much combat.

NWN2---Honestly, looking back, I didn't mind the engine that much. Sure, it was a pain at times, but if you've played games for awhile, you've learned to cope...not that it excuses poor design, of course. What set me off was everything else. Loads of trash combat, "fake" choices, and writing/characters not up to snuff with Black Isle/Obsidian pedigree. When I say there were loads of trash combat...I mean it in a different way than normal. Sure, there were some encounters, design wise, that were interesting. The problem is, they didn't turn out to play well. It felt like the entire game was far too easy, and this is really driven home when you can easily vanquish two dragons at once, a feat only marginally less derp than soloing two dragons with ease in the original Neverwinter Nights. As for fake choices, I'm mostly talking about the trial where all roads led to fighting some dumbass. Joy. And the characters, while none were as potentially annoying as someone like Minsc, they also had this bad trait of not being optional, unlike Minsc. I don't want a feisty tiefling/hippie tree hugger/brooding anti-hero in my group? Too bad. At least it was my fault if I picked up a ranger with a rodent for my party. Poor game altogether...which is why I eBayed posthaste, and recouped a decent amount of funds.

Alpha Brotocol---I loved the characters, and I could dig the cheesy spy stuff. I liked the character system for certain ways it was designed, even if the application left a lot to desire. The dialogue wheel was totally derptastic, but they certainly did at least try to make dialogues more "active" in a way (gelato man being the best example off the top of my head). Hell, I can even understand where they were coming from with a lot of the designs in combat, even the bosses. Unfortunately, Obsidian, in the Codex parlance, cannot into action games, and Alpha Protocol was a mess like no other. It was fun at times, but really had some serious flaws that are impossible to avoid/overlook and make enjoying the game harder than it should be.

Fallout: New Faggot---I've played this for maybe 7 hours. So far it feels like a much less retarded Fallout 3. Unfortunately, extreme retardation (note: extreme, not EXTREME) wasn't what sank Fallout 3, it was the awful, awful gameplay. New Vegas keeps the shitastic combat that made Fallout 3 stink like milk left in the sun for a week, but seems to throw somewhat less at you...and has so far refrained from the Elder Scrolls style of "exploring", which involves tons of dungeons filed with monsters. Not sure if I want to keep this one going, or just ship it back and yell at Gamefly for sending me this game while Devil Summoner has been at the top of my queue for two months and has been listed as High Availability for a bit now. Goddamn teases...

I guess I agree with Shannow in that, when you really look at it, Obsidian doesn't seem to stand out in any meaningful way to deserve their special status here; the treatment they receive over Bioware/Bethesda. They've never really made anything spectacular, and their games are, generally, not much better overall than Bio/Beth titles. It makes more sense to treat them the same way, and not expect too much, because you probably won't get much.

As much as I agree with OP rating that Alpha Shit a fucking zero (well, one. I actually played it a bit. It deserves zero.)....

MotB 5/10
SoZ 6/10

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Atrocious faggot detected.
Updated my worthless-opinions.txt

Shannow said:

Dragon age 4/10:
First third was enjoyable. Some improvements in companion interactions, gameplay mechanics and graphics. All fucked up by stupid design-decisions in the same areas. Origins are good, boring and facepalm (depending on which one is chosen). Writing is ok. Story, dialogues and questlines are riddled by inconsistencies and logic fails, especially in the later parts. Some good/challenging encounters, overall gameplay gets boring fast due to trash-mobs.

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Your opinions are worthwhile to me, my friend

Yeah so -

HotU 8/10:
Despite all NWN's shortcoming fun dungeoncrawling and character-building.

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Anyone care to elaborate on that? I never really touched this crap, but I've heard so many people say good things about it. What's up with that? Isn't it just more Bioware click-and-wait gameplay? Wtf guys?

Well, I guess that HotU is better, especially when compared to the original NWN. I did actually enjoy the story quite a bit, although it gets quite derpy at the end of the game. It also suffers from the non-controllable NPCs just as much as the original game did, so if you absolutely hated NWN, I don't think there's much reason to play the expansions. They're definitely better than NWN, but it still has quite a lot of that NWN feel.

Serious_Business said:

Your opinions are worthwhile to me, my friend

Yeah so -

HotU 8/10:
Despite all NWN's shortcoming fun dungeoncrawling and character-building.

Click to expand...

Anyone care to elaborate on that? I never really touched this crap, but I've heard so many people say good things about it. What's up with that? Isn't it just more Bioware click-and-wait gameplay? Wtf guys?

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There's a bunch of weird ideas executed in this game. It has been 6 years since I played it, so I might not remember a single thing clearly. However:

1. You can find out people's "True Names", and blackmail them for anything with them. Knowing their names gives you power over them - including demigods and planar superdemons. I wondered, "Can I actually gain some out-of-this-world cosmic powers with them?" Turned out I could.

2. You get stripped naked and you have to hunt for the magical object that stole your clothes/armour and left you with no dignity, save your weapon.

3. You find a frozen part of hell, where all the worst villains that have been thrown in there have been left to rot. They are all out to kill you.

4. HotU introduced the most bizzare prestige classes, including one that causes you to slowly morph into a dragon with wings.

5. Unlike other BioWare games, every point of Intelligence or Wisdom had an effect on dialogue.

But for these things, I'd say it was an ordinary or average game, but nothing great.

Volourn summoners.

Serious_Business said:

Your opinions are worthwhile to me, my friend

Yeah so -

HotU 8/10:
Despite all NWN's shortcoming fun dungeoncrawling and character-building.

Click to expand...

Anyone care to elaborate on that? I never really touched this crap, but I've heard so many people say good things about it. What's up with that? Isn't it just more Bioware click-and-wait gameplay? Wtf guys?

Click to expand...

It's easier to overlook NWNs generally boring combat when characters are epic level. When dragons and deamons are exploding all over your screen in a shower of thaumaturgic jism and the focus is more on how silly and over the top stuff can get, it becomes fairly enjoyable. It's like DA2 with slightly better mechanics and no gay elf sex.

Wyrmlord said:

Shannow said:

Jade Empire (1/10):
didn't play.

Oblivion (2/10):
Didn't play,

ME2 (2/10):
didn't play

AP (1/10):
Didn't play

DA2 (2/10):
Didn't play

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Man, look how fast you are discrediting yourself. I didn't play most of these games either, but I keep the good sense to keep my mouth shut on games I have not played. By the way, yes, I also have not played them because I think they will be likely bad, but I am not going to go all, "This game is so awful and with terrible mechanics. 1/10, didn't play".

Many games sound good on paper, but are bad in practice. Many games sound bad on paper, but are good in practice. It's why one shouldn't base such sweeping opinions based on previews and other people's testimonies.

Posters like these, in such moments, are what is wrong with RPG Codex. This has always been the problem with RPG Codex, ever since I came here. Dark Individual/The Walking Dude was the worst, with this whole "I didn't play this game, hence it was terrible." Even intelligent posters like ghostdog pull this nonsense sometimes, so I don't know why.

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This is about the heart of what I would have posted, so well said.

Someone get a troll with lots of stamina to hurl debris all over this thread.

2/10

Try harder.

Morrowind is the greatest hiking simulator of all time!

MotB amazing game only held back by being an expansion to a shitty game. When someone bitches about the spirit eater mechanics, it's usually a sure sign he is retarded.

Fallout: New Vegas is a surprisingly fun game. Not amazing, but decent.

The rest are either shit or I haven't played, which apparently also makes them shit.

They just need better coders and QA. Their game design is usually pretty sound, and they have normally quite excellent writing(at least for a video game). If they ever get a chance to make Icewind dale 3 I'll be happy.I don't think they should ever make a sequel to Torment, maybe a new game set in planescape would be nice, with a new set of characters.

Please make another Vampire game, but don't use requiem because it's gothic faggotry.

K.

If there is one thing that every Obsidian game has in common (besides bugs) its shitty combat encounters. Thats the reason why I hope that they will never again make a RPG thats heavily focused on combat, but that is wishful thinking.

Pablosdog said:

They just need better coders and QA.

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So they need to be a better developer and better at making games? That's basically what you're saying.

This is like looking at Uwe Boll movie and saying, "It just needs better cinematography and screenplay."

markec said:

If there is one thing that every Obsidian game has in common (besides bugs) its shitty combat encounters. Thats the reason why I hope that they will never again make a RPG thats heavily focused on combat, but that is wishful thinking.

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Dungeon Siege III was p. good about that