Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

Castanova · Oct 15, 2006

Granted, KOTOR/JE/ME were all console-kiddy games. But DA is a PC-only RPG made with a refreshingly relaxed due date and extreme caution against early hype. Combine that with what miniscule information you people have about the game and no one here has a leg to stand on. Save the venemous, end-is-nigh predictions until real information comes out, Nostradamus wannabes.

Jed · Oct 15, 2006

@Castanova: Considering that each and every BioWare game since BG2 has been a step farther and farther away from the RPG genre, you're really naive to believe that you're going to get anything better than NWN-lite.

Volourn · Oct 15, 2006

"Granted, KOTOR/JE/ME were all console-kiddy games."

You lie.

JE was rated Mature. ME 'weren't anything since that would mean past tense, and ME isn't even out yet. Dumbass.

"Considering that each and every BioWare game since BG2 has been a step farther and farther away from the RPG genre, you're really naive to believe that you're going to get anything better than NWN-lite."

Bullshit. Every game since BG2 has been getting more, and more role-playing added. What a retard you are.

Slylandro · Oct 15, 2006

I didn't know JE was rated mature. You mean by the ESRB? Why?

Uz0rnaem · Oct 15, 2006

It really was rated Mature, because of its depiction of violence and "gore".

Dgaider · Oct 15, 2006

The Rambling Sage said:
Maybe you could go through the AoD forums to get some ideas about how to keep a relationship in between a developer and could-be fans working.

You mean a game tailor-made for the audience that goes to that forum? Yeah, it must be a real intense proposition to maintain that relationship.

Some days, there are just not as many differences between this crowd and the ones on the Bethesda forums that you mock so regularly as you would like to believe.

it would be interesting to hear your answers to the points here exposed that you say are so blatantly wrong. If you had the time to post that then you have the time to post a somewhat more deep and insightful commentary. Since we are all wrong, clean the floor with the dying corpses of our short-sighted commentaries and be done with it.

And what would that do, exactly? You think I've never been here before, is that it? I'll explain in full things that haven't yet been talked about in detail at the Bioware forums themselves, and you all will listen attentively and then go, "Brilliant!"

No, hardly.

There is occasionally a good conversation to be had here at the Codex, for even as single-minded as many of you are you do occasionally express some solid opinions, but since I can't discuss Dragon Age in any more detail here than on our own forums I'm not about to engage -- more than making a passing comment, that is, which I can rarely refuse. You're obviously having more fun with your assumptions anyway -- and besides, it's Bioware! As some of you said yourselves, you're fully justified in putting everything in the worst possible light until proven otherwise. Why be reasonable?

---------------------

That said, I should say that I don't think Dragon Age is the perfect RPG for you (not that such a beast exists, anyhow, but that's a different conversation) nor do I suspect you will think every feature is teh awesome. I do, however, think it's the most traditional RPG we've done since the BG series by far and that some of you may even enjoy it. But that will bear out whenever the eventual PR starts, I guess. So be it.

Jed · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider said:
Some days, there are just not as many differences between this crowd and the ones on the Bethesda forums that you mock so regularly as you would like to believe.

I hope you didn't strain anything climbing your chubby ass onto that high-horse there, Dave.

Dgaider · Oct 15, 2006

Jed said:
I hope you didn't strain anything climbing your chubby ass onto that high-horse there, Dave.

Well I had to get closer to where you all were sitting so that you could hear me, after all.

But thanks for the concern. It didn't strain me any more than when you need to walk upstairs to tell your Mom to order a pizza.

Ryuken · Oct 15, 2006

Moral choices: sounds great.

NPC-gathering place: I might misunderstand this but with an "Ebon Hawk"-like gathering place for joinable npc's I get the impression that going around the world won't be such a thrill, especially revisiting places, at least it takes away some of the realism. Isn't it pretty obvious that npc's would return to the place where you first met them like in BG? I mean, I never found the "travelling-to-retrieve-certain-npc's"-aspect to be cumbersome, it made a lot more sense than just putting everyone who ever joined you in some boring space-ship/appartment. That some folks have to be with you (in the gathering place) for the story to unfold okay, but why should the optional npc's always have to stick in your crib? It just makes them feel more like a number you pick one from out of a row than real characters imo.

Story: relying on npc's which have to travel with you can be a risk too. As I understand it though, you're not obliged to take them with you on the adventures, they just remain in the gathering place nearly all the time.

Death-thing: whenever a party-member in BG/BG2 died in regular combat I nearly always reloaded or tried to bring them back later through rezzing, it's just a natural instinct, definitely because the npc's had a lot of charm. That doesn't mean though I am all for the "party-members can only die when the whole party dies"-concept. Having rezz-spells takes away a lot of the challenge yep, but party-members who just faint everytime do not? I mean, I never wanted to win a difficult fight when some partymember(s) died along the way, now that challenge seems gone too. Anyway, I hope there is something else that might serve as some sort of punishment for partymembers which momentarily go down, if that's what Gaider meant with "The consequence for failure does not have to be death. As I said, it can be injury or other impediments.". And when I saw the Minsc/DynaheirvsEdwin conflict f.e. I simply loved it that one of both sides would die, with or without my help. I hope such occurences will make it into DA too and that you can still "kill" joinable npc's in such a way then.

edit: it might be handy to have the source of these statements, although I am too lazy to find them all there.

Ladonna · Oct 15, 2006

Dave says we are like the Elderscrolls forum.... :cry:

I think I will go and make an Elvis character now....

Okay, Im fine now.

David,

Can you tell us if Dragon Age is staying a PC only title?

Will it have character classes like DnD? Or a skill point system ala Arcanum/Fallout/etc?

Will the NPC's be AI driven? Or Player driven?

When you Larp, are you an evil Wizard? Or a strong, silent, yet...mysterious Barbarian from the northern wastes whose father died in a snow storm?

Shoelip · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider said:
Jed said:

I hope you didn't strain anything climbing your chubby ass onto that high-horse there, Dave.

Click to expand...

Well I had to get closer to where you all were sitting so that you could hear me, after all.

But thanks for the concern. It didn't strain me any more than when you need to walk upstairs to tell your Mom to order a pizza.

Lol, burn!

It's amazing that you even come to this forum at all Gaider. From what I've pretty much every time you post a whole bunch of people respond by screaming insults, I certainly would have giver up by now in your situation.

Dgaider · Oct 15, 2006

And then someone comes along and makes reasonable comments. Well, fine. Be that way. :p

Ryuken said:
NPC-gathering place: I might misunderstand this but with an "Ebon Hawk"-like gathering place for joinable npc's I get the impression that going around the world won't be such a thrill, especially revisiting places, at least it takes away some of the realism. Isn't it pretty obvious that npc's would return to the place where you first met them like in BG? I mean, I never found the "travelling-to-retrieve-certain-npc's"-aspect to be cumbersome, it made a lot more sense than just putting everyone who ever joined you in some boring space-ship/appartment. That some folks have to be with you (in the gathering place) for the story to unfold okay, but why should the optional npc's always have to stick in your crib? It just makes them feel more like a number you pick one from out of a row than real characters imo.

I get your concerns regarding the gathering place. That said, we have a few ways that we're addressing the realism of it that I can't go into, in an attempt to get away from the "party in a pocket" feel. But overall, yes, this is a nod to utility and some people will never like it, no matter what form it takes.

Story: relying on npc's which have to travel with you can be a risk too. As I understand it though, you're not obliged to take them with you on the adventures, they just remain in the gathering place nearly all the time.

Right. When they aren't doing other things. That said, the majority of your party members are optional and thus dismissable and/or killable -- if you deign to take them with you to begin with.

Death-thing: whenever a party-member in BG/BG2 died in regular combat I nearly always reloaded or tried to bring them back later through rezzing, it's just a natural instinct, definitely because the npc's had a lot of charm. That doesn't mean though I am all for the "party-members can only die when the whole party dies"-concept. Having rezz-spells takes away a lot of the challenge yep, but party-members who just faint everytime do not? I mean, I never wanted to win a difficult fight when some partymember(s) died along the way, now that challenge seems gone too. Anyway, I hope there is something else that might serve as some sort of punishment for partymembers which momentarily go down, if that's what Gaider meant with "The consequence for failure does not have to be death. As I said, it can be injury or other impediments.".

There is no resurrection or coming back from the dead in the Dragon Age world, period. Personally I find it a bit strange that anyone would accept it as such face value -- sure, party members dying on a regular basis is fine if you can just whip them back to life with a spell (or a reload). But it trivializes death in the world in a major way.

At the same time, I'm not a big fan of the KotOR method of party members who go down in combat just jumping back up and quickly regaining hit points. You are correct when you pointed out my comment and hoped that it meant there would be some kind of consequence-- there is, and if it takes some spell or resource expenditure to bring someone back from "death" or "near death" I'm not sure that they're so very different options.

And when I saw the Minsc/DynaheirvsEdwin conflict f.e. I simply loved it that one of both sides would die, with or without my help. I hope such occurences will make it into DA too and that you can still "kill" joinable npc's in such a way then.

I don't think we've got any fights-to-the-death within the party as such, but for the optional party members they can get seriously pissed off if they don't like their fellow comrades or your actions and will threaten to leave -- though a persuasive player can lie to them and change their mind, at least sometimes.

Jed · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider said:
But thanks for the concern. It didn't strain me any more than when you need to walk upstairs to tell your Mom to order a pizza.

I don't even currently live in the same country as my mother, but whatever makes you feel better, Dave. And regarding pizza, save the cheese for DA.

Dgaider · Oct 15, 2006

Ladonna said:
Can you tell us if Dragon Age is staying a PC only title?

I don't really know, to be honest -- it's not my decision. If that changed, there are certainly solid economic reasons for it to do so. But we are developing it on the PC, at least.

Will it have character classes like DnD? Or a skill point system ala Arcanum/Fallout/etc?

Class-based system, though not very much like D&D outside of it having classes.

Will the NPC's be AI driven? Or Player driven?

Player-controlled, though there may very well be some optional AI. Like the BG series.

When you Larp, are you an evil Wizard? Or a strong, silent, yet...mysterious Barbarian from the northern wastes whose father died in a snow storm?

I don't really do the LARP where you run around in the forest shouting "lightning bolt! lightning bolt!" and fight with padded weapons and such. I do Vampire LARP with what I consider to be a pretty mature and fun crowd... though, yes, I know Vampire LARping is due its own brand of ridicule. Most of it really deserved. What can I say? I hang my head in shame near the bottom of the geek hierarchy (just above furries, I understand).

Shoelip · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider, I was wondering if you could say anything about skill based dialogue options. I generally liked KotOR but one thing that really annoyed me was the few fake persuade and force persuade options that you couldn't suceed no matter how high your skill modifier or force power. Two examples I can think of are the sith secretary on Manaan attacking you no matter what, and the Sith students on Korriban attacking you no matter what after you've killed Master... er what's his face.

I wanted to know if you can talk about why you guys did it that way and also if you're things like that in DA as well. Are there a good number of opportunitys to use speach skills or something similar in place of force?

HanoverF · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider said:
I don't really do the LARP where you run around in the forest shouting "lightning bolt! lightning bolt!" and fight with padded weapons and such. I do Vampire LARP with what I consider to be a pretty mature and fun crowd... though, yes, I know Vampire LARping is due its own brand of ridicule. Most of it really deserved. What can I say? I hang my head in shame near the bottom of the geek hierarchy (just above furries, I understand).

I can't believe you admited to that here. I have a newfound respect for you.

Which just as quickly dissapeared cause you play vampire LARP.

Dgaider · Oct 15, 2006

Shoelip said:
I wanted to know if you can talk about why you guys did it that way and also if you're things like that in DA as well. Are there a good number of opportunitys to use speach skills or something similar in place of force?

Well, as I recall the reasoning was that persuasion (even the Force-driven kind) isn't the way out of every situation -- sometimes people are going to have defenses against a power or there's just no way that your skills of persuasion will get you out of something no matter how hard you try. Most times, sure, but not always. Not to say that you couldn't try. Would it have been better just to not have those options at all?

There's always a big argument whether you should only list dialogue options that will succeed (or could succeed) or whether you should give the player the option to try stuff even that he doesn't have the skill for or that wouldn't work, to cover the bases of logical responses.

We don't have any kind of Force Persuade in Dragon Age, but we do have some speech-driven skill options. It does come up, occasionally allowing you to avoid combat or keep a party member on your good side or lie your pants off or whatever.

Lumpy · Oct 15, 2006

What's the point in allowing the player to occasionally avoid combat, when he still needs to develop his fighting skills for the forced combats anyway?

Ladonna · Oct 15, 2006

If it comes to the PC first, its all good. No need for worrying about dodgy UI and nice big letters.

Dave, how would you describe the travel system? Does it have a world map that you travel on? Or is all travel in the 3D playing screen?

Do you know if Ranged melee weapons will be included with a reach bonus? like a glaive, or halberd? or...or a spiked chain? :twisted:

Has Bioware made new races? or used existing fantasy fare?

Thanks for answering the questions. It makes a big difference from talking into the usual vacuum at most game sites.

Araanor · Oct 15, 2006

Wait... wait... all this is fine, as long as I can enslave nations with my necromancy. This is still in, right?

Texas Red · Oct 15, 2006

"I don't really know, to be honest -- it's not my decision. If that changed, there are certainly solid economic reasons for it to do so. But we are developing it on the PC, at least."

My respect for Bioware will return if DA stays, at least for the initial release, PC only.

However, I doubt this will be the case. No new information for years and when ME has many trailers, interviews and a release date and it was announced after DA. I can bet my soul that you are redoing it to fit the consoles.

Ladonna · Oct 15, 2006

I don't care if they make it for the Atari 2600 after they finish it for the PC. Make money by all means, as long as the PC version is actually a PC version, not a ripped to console version with the usual sludge UI, pathetic area sizes, etc.

Veracity · Oct 15, 2006

The KOTORs' temporary incapacitation was just an ill-considered implementation of low/no consequence death, being too obviously exploitable in silly ways (minesweeping, indestructo-Atton...). Cheesiness aside, it's really not substantially different from any system with trivial enough resurrection that death is no more than a minor inconvenience. Torment was also pretty much no-consequence, considering you had an immortal player character with an inherent resurrection skill, so I don't think it's much use as an example of a different approach, though it admittedly allowed you to kill off the entire party sooner or later, if you so desired. I'd love to see a game actively acknowledge characters being killed off, but I don't realistically expect it - sure, this is circular logic, but no-one's going to devote resources to dealing gracefully with the possibility of characters dying at arbitrary times, because they know 90%+ of players will just hit quickload if the situation isn't recoverable, and vice versa.

Regarding base camps, what's particularly desirable about the BG2 approach of having dismissed PCs vanish and respawn rooted to some pre-agreed spot in case you want them back? It'd be neat if they'd wander off and do their own thing, potentially getting themselves killed, ending up too busy to jump instantly to your summons, and the like (though doubtless highly annoying to some), but that ain't going to happen. If they're blatantly in limbo waiting for you to re-inject purpose into their otherwise static digital existence, I honestly can't understand why it matters where you put the spawn point, though some reasonable attempt to make it feel plausible obviously doesn't hurt.

Beyond unsubstantiated speculation that the long development period suggests cross-platform shenanigans (and as long as the interface is fine on PC, what does that matter?), is there really much worth worrying about either way in the (lack of) information available? The game's vaporware, for the time being, though without the usual derogatory 'after Duke Nukem Forever' implication - I don't doubt it'll be out eventually, but it seems hugely premature to be worrying about whether it might be worth buying.

Sarvis · Oct 15, 2006

Jed said:
@Castanova: Considering that each and every BioWare game since BG2 has been a step farther and farther away from the RPG genre,

Said by someone who is clueless as to what the RPG genre is.

Sarvis · Oct 15, 2006

Dgaider said:
Class-based system, though not very much like D&D outside of it having classes.

But there will be Rangers, right?

Game News Dragon Age semi-annual update

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