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Death in RPGs

Monolith

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LCJr. said:
Iron man, autosave on death, whatever. A lot of people just can't handle losing:) Personally I've never seen the need for Ironman mode. Just show a little willpower and don't reload everytime something doesn't work out the way you want it to.
Some people don't have that much willpower to show. Plus, some games seem to rely on that.

BTW isn't there a roguelike that does the family thing?
Does anybody know the name? I'm not into roguelikes, but that would be enoug reason for me to give it a try...
 

Atrokkus

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Atrokkus: Hmm, Ok then, Solo Baldurs gate 1 with a Fighter.
That's the point: it must not necessarily mean that you will beat the game. I know it's kinda hard to take, but this what you do in ironman mode: you just enjoy the process, not the result.
 
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Elwro said:
As for crashing, ADOM - when it still was unstable - did a good job of saving your progress just before a crash. I have no idea how Biskup managed it, but he did.

Actually, this shouldn't be terribly difficult, provided the developer is very careful with their language's exception handling. Its just requires extra effort.

I'm working on my own CRPG at the moment, and I've done a lot of debating about how I want to handle death. Currently, the player creates a single character, and then picks up other NPCs in their travels. When the player created character is killed, its game over. However, what I really want to do is have new quests and gameplay opportunities for when one of the NPCs is killed (resurrection will be impossible).

Here are a couple of possibilities I've come up with:

- If the NPC had a spouse/significant other, they may offer to join. This new NPC shouldn't simply be a twin of the original. If the original was, say, a fighter-type, then the new NPC might be a thief-type.
- The killed NPC had a mortal enemy, and when they find out the NPC has been killed, may approach the party with a reward and/or new quests. Or, they may be pissed off, as they have been robbed of the opportunity to exact revenge.
- A (previously) inaccessible area opens up
- A will of some sort designates the player's party as a recipient of a portion of the NPC's wealth and equipment

I don't think every NPC should have this contigency, but something along the lines of 10-25% of recruitable NPCs would seem appropriate. Some randomness in which ones have this would probably be a good idea, so the player wouldn't necessarily know which ones to have killed off for the greatest benefits. But, hopefully, this will dissuade at least some people from reloading every time someone is killed, as there may be compensation for the death.

Another thing I want to implement in combat is some sort of simple dialog system. In every CRPG I can think of, once you've entered combat, the only things you can really do is fight, or run. I'd like to give the player the ability to demand surrender, to surrender themselves, try some sort of intimidation technique, bluff, etc.
 

Lord Chambers

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Monolith said:
The character's history is embodied by the game world and when making a new character, you start to play in the changed world. A nice gimmick would be playing the child of your last character. Having a main storyline is impossible though.
Hardly impossible. Some games feature an oppressive evil force that is coming to power. That is something that could be fought over generations. Also, vampires tend to have long lives, and their slayers tend to bequeath the business down the family line.

Alternatively, if you think YOU R TEH one!11 is a stupid RPG cliche, then it would follow that perhaps you shouldn't be playing one character. If the plot of a game has an evil wizard that needs destroying, perhaps a hero shouldn't singlehandedly stop him, but instead an entire town militia. When your character dies you restart with someone else in his militia, and he enters a world altered by the first character.

This still presents challenges to developing a meaningful narrative, but it's not impossible.
 

Monolith

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Lord Chambers said:
Monolith said:
The character's history is embodied by the game world and when making a new character, you start to play in the changed world. A nice gimmick would be playing the child of your last character. Having a main storyline is impossible though.
Hardly impossible. Some games feature an oppressive evil force that is coming to power. That is something that could be fought over generations. Also, vampires tend to have long lives, and their slayers tend to bequeath the business down the family line.

Alternatively, if you think YOU R TEH one!11 is a stupid RPG cliche, then it would follow that perhaps you shouldn't be playing one character. If the plot of a game has an evil wizard that needs destroying, perhaps a hero shouldn't singlehandedly stop him, but instead an entire town militia. When your character dies you restart with someone else in his militia, and he enters a world altered by the first character.

This still presents challenges to developing a meaningful narrative, but it's not impossible.
If you play on as a militia guy you aren't free to choose what character you play. You can see that as a consequence to the actions of your last character, but I think that would be slightly over the top ;). Anyway, you're right. A long lasting war can be faught over generations. Say, you have different landlords fighting over a realm. That would leave the player with enough choices as to which faction he'd like to side with - if any. I'd still call that more part of the setting than story though.
 

Kraszu

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Flux_Capacitor said:
I'm working on my own CRPG at the moment, and I've done a lot of debating about how I want to handle death. Currently, the player creates a single character, and then picks up other NPCs in their travels. When the player created character is killed, its game over. However, what I really want to do is have new quests and gameplay opportunities for when one of the NPCs is killed (resurrection will be impossible).

Haw about having basically infinite amount of npc to got by you would have to pay them. There could be places to hire mercenary + possibility to get some deal whit other people, nobody should join for no reason and have no benefit from it as general rule. You could have reputation system and you would have to pay more if many mercenaries died on your command before coopered to haw long you had them in party.
 

Sirbolt

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JarlFrank said:
Depends on the situation. Like, for example, Baldur's Gate 2, when you found out Yoshimo is a spy to Irenicus. You had to kill him later.
This made sense, actually, and was better than just having him killed off scriptedly. [like, your PC or an NPC from your party yelling "OMGZ TRAITOR!!!" and then killing him]

Better in what way? Either way he's dead and you have absolutely no control over wether he dies or not. Suppose i wanted to forgive him, or just severely torture him for a couple of days?

KingComrade said:
Huh? Next are you going to tell me that every time a character dies in a book it's lazy writing?

Yeah, because CRPG's and books are EXACTLY THE SAME MEDIUM! Can't believe i didn't notice that before. Removing the influence of any outcome for which the player normally has control is weak in any CRPG and only serves to pull you out of the game. I'm all for permadeath or some other equally harsh system, but at least make me feel as if theirs a chance they can make it. Otherwise, why the fuck am i playing?
 

aboyd

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OverrideB1 said:
I always play CRPGs in "Ironman" mode: for me, character death means I've screwed up and need to start again. I'm aware that I'm in a minority in that I actively enjoy replaying a game (with certain caveats) since I always start a totally different character. It does mean that I'm much less likely to rush my character into a combat situation, and exploration becomes much more fraught with peril.
Yes, this is how I play. For a long time, I didn't know it was called ironman mode. It's not intentional on my part -- I'll reload if I'm compelled to, it's just that usually I'm not. Usually my brain says, "and that's the story of how these would-be-heroes failed. The end." If the game is fun, I'll start new characters. Otherwise, I shelve it.

Monolith said:
kingcomrade said:
I haven't played NWN2 but RPG style reviving isn't a problem for me. It's part of the game mechanics. If someone dies in combat you have to deal with the loss of their power until the end of the battle then you have to spend resouces to revive them. If everyone dies, you load.
I hate the way it's done in NWN 2. After the combat the NPCs just got up and that was it. Prelude to Darkness did a better job. Unconscious NPC could be finished off by the enemy. I really rushed to help an unconscious NPC in fear he'd be killed. It added some urgency to the combat, giving it a nice touch.
Yes, that does sound good. I found the death system in Icewind Dale to be good. I like the idea that if you have someone left in your party, then that character can try to resurrect the others. But unlike NWN 2, it wasn't automated. If you wanted a character back, you'd have to work at it.

I went to great lengths to resurrect characters in IWD and BG. I'd pay out large sums of gold, or quest to level up, or engage in lengthy hit-and-run missions to slowly whittle down the enemy so I could get to a corpse. I'd invest in stone-to-flesh spells. But the permadeath "feature" in BG (disintegration) just made me angry. Also, in BG, if the main character died, the game was a forced reload, even if the other 5 characters were perfectly capable of resurrection. If death can be overcome with effort, I'll try it. But if death is so easy that it's meaningless (NWN2) or so impossible that reloads are the only recourse (BG2) then the game has a design flaw, IMHO.
 

Gambler

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What I would like to see in games:
1) Less combat encounters. No stupid grind combat at all. Killing 10000 enemies is both boring and unrealistic.
2) Plausible reasons for being in the combat, not a lame-ass excuse like "they are evil and attack everyone".
3) Plausible goals. Virtually no combat in real-life happens because person A wants to kill person B. That isn't combat anyway, that's a murder attempt.
4) Realistic reaction from enemies. I find it extremely frustrating when 99% of all NPCs are mindless drones who gladly sacrifice themselves to deal you some damage. If designer does not expect you to reload, he should not expect NPCs to die, if you get what I mean.
5) It should not be about two groups of people hitting each other with swords until their HPs run out. Enemies should attack, withdraw, etc. Possibly, they should have their own goals.

When all those goals will be met, I might think about not reloading upon character death.
 
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Davaris

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Reducing deadly situations:
There are different types of combat. Above, I was talking about lethal combat. But there is much more than that. Brawls over small disputes for instance, rarely were fights to the death. Or fighting for entertainment. If the player knows that a fight to the death is likely to result in the player character's demise and if he is presented with a still violent, but less deadly solution, he'll likely choose the latter. As a result he can get beaten up, but he'll survive. And that *can* have some nice consequences - whereas death can't (mostly when controlling a party and almost always when playing a single character).

This is a very good idea Monolith. At any time you could change your combat mode between brawling and to the death. Also to make things interesting, you could add a chance that a non lethal attack could turn deadly by accident and this could enrage your opponents.

Presentation of lethal and non-lethal situations:
A player has to be able to distinguish lethal and non-lethal situations to be able to choose. This can be accomplished through different narrators - NPCs, cinematics, game world and/or through character attributes and skills. While the former shouldn't need explanation, the latter does. Character attributes and skills like perception, streetwise, lore, intelligence and whatnot can be inidcators. Is the character able to sense treachery or a trap. Is he able to determine an opponents will to kill. Stuff like that. In general I'm talking of hints that can act as a warnings to the player.

This could be determined every combat turn. As an example your enemies may initially want to kill you and then lose the will to do it. This could also apply to the members of your party. A good natured party member may be unwilling to kill their opponents until they get very angry.

I can imagine a situation where street toughs beat you unconscious and take all of your possessions. Then you could go on a quest to get your items back.
 

Human Shield

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For a system I'm just going to pimp this one: http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/whatis/jccombat.htm Its the most realistic designed but its conducive to play because the survivablility of your character is really increased if you fight in line with the character's passions. People that know how to use the system find the combat is much faster and intense and that death can be even less common then D&D. Ambushes are usually the most deadly attacks, you don't just do 3X damage against an Orc's massive HP pool you split his skull and he dies.

I think the save and reload approach works. You have to try different ways and the threat of failure is real, when you win it can feel earned.

I think meta-game resources could help roleplaying. Arcanum had a something of the concept but it wasn't designed in the system very well. You have a pool earned from actions that can give you more successes in an action, if you or your buddy is about to get hit with a death blow you can spend some to reduce the damage enough to put him into critical condition (enough to pay off the damage margin from the attack). This makes the player think if the NPC is worth spending these points on or not.

If the game is non-linear enough that challenges can be failed or done later, I'd like to see meta-game resources. You get some fade points or whatever from doing things and you save the game before a fight, if you lose you can reload but loss some fate points (because obviously you weren't destined to beat him yet).
 

TheGreatGodPan

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I've already advocated X-Com's hireable soldiers before, so I guess I'll repeat that here. There's no reason it couldn't be implemented in an RPG.

In Call of Cthulhu it is common for players to create multiple characters and that after one dies their friends/family hears about it and decides to find out what's going on. That would be a good idea, but it would seem to require pre-planning which would make it difficult to combine with the X-Com option. Perhaps nobody cares about the replaceable people you hire, but your character or other pre-written NPCs could have this sort of background.

A new idea somebody suggested that I really like is a story unfolding over multiple generations. Back when I read books by Terry Brooks one thing I thought was neat was that it wasn't the same characters over and over again in every book in the Shannara series (although that was in the case in the lamer sequel series).
 

Voss

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Thats an interesting link, someone actually put some thought into the combat ideas, even if the setting looks blatantly cribbed from R.E. Howard's notebook.

As for death handling, well, I'm not sure. I do think the concern playing a meta game with save/load tricks is something a developer doesn't need to worry about. If thats how someone wants to play the end product, then whatever. Its not really worth the effort to try to stop it, any more than its worth trying to stop someone from alt-tabbing out to a walk-thru or reading a strategy guide. Save the effort for the system itself.

Before I get to the death in games, lets talk some of the problems that lead into death issues. Hit points and phat loot, since they've helped degrade the genre quite a bit. Now, some shit I can deal with. Modern fantasy magic, as OTT as it is, can be entertaining, interesting and even fun to play. Even magical healing, and yes, healing potions don't bother me as much as they probably should. But thats largely because of the fun to play factor. Do I swallow a gimmick? Sure, but 'real' healing, done properly, would probably involve sitting idle for 15-30 minutes while a month of game time passes. Not fun.

On the other hand, scads of hit points and a shitload of magic items sits poorly on my concept of fantasy. The magic items especially since 1) it clashes so much with myth and decent to good quality stories. No one is carrying around thousands in cash on their backs. 2) Most systems involve either the creator giving part of themselves (in some fashion), or ancient races leaving this crap lying around. Even in context of a fantasy world, why would this happen? The lack of logic (internal to the proposed system) is baffling. 3) Its often structured badly. Starting town provides basic crap, regardless of size or circumstance. Town before the final encounter sells uber shit like it came out of a frickin' factory. 4) Finally, it involves no real sense of accomplishment. The character didn't when the fight, the Awesome Set of Magical Uberness did.

Hit points (or whatever) are another abstraction gone to the absurd. The basic concept isn't entirely unreasonable, and somewhat useful as an abstraction, particularly if fleshed out in an intelligent way. D&D, once upon a time, described HP as a mix of durabiltiy and luck. Well and good, and at 1st and 2nd level, perfectly acceptable. You might have to get stabbed a couple times with a dagger, but a good solid whack with a big axe is going to put your ass down. At higher levels, though, the 'abstraction' gets stupid as you are clearly 'hit', and hit repeatedly, with a bloody great axe (or whatever). No amount of suspension of disbelief gets around this. It just gets dumb.

(And yeah, I'm getting to death. I'm just wordy tonight). The solution that occurs to me here, is putting a strict cap on HP. A base number, based on size classification, modified by constituition/stamina/ whatever stat and durability training, but capped at say, double the original amount. A hero of legend might survive a solid blow with a bloody great axe, but he isn't going to take two (or at least stay upright for two). The advantage to throwing a size classification into is it allows for big monsters like giants and dragons to sneer at swords and axes, the same way you'd sneer at a toothpick and a pen. Yeah, someone who knows what they're doing and are damn luck can take you down, but its going to be a serious effort. Fleshing out the HP system slightly would involve skipping over the unconscious at 0 concept. Put a medium range in there, 0 to -half CON, (or whatever). Staggered, bleeding out, and really messed up, but able to do some things at a penalty. Completely out past that, and finally dead at negative CON. Nicely dramatic, pseudo-realistic without getting horribly complicated, and (once we get to death), a reason to protect your characters. Especially against ruthless enemies. A thug in an ally probably won't take the time to make sure your downed companion is dead, but the demonic minions of evil likely will.

Now I'd want to do some other things along with it, like say armour reducing damage (or better, converting some to non-lethal damage. You aren't getting cut to ribbons as much, but you're still getting bashed around some. Plus you can do a faster recovery time for that sort of thing and not stretch the magical healing idea quite so far). Most of all, I'd change defense into a matter of skill, much like attack. Screw magic items of +n. Focus on the skill of the character, not the crap he's carrying around. Add in some extra stuff. For example, take out the Attacks of Opportunity if you're using D&D as the basis. Instead, give characters options when attacked- a set number of 'responses' per round parries, dodging, counterattack (basically giving up your defensive action to attack simultaneously, when you know the enemies defenses are down). So instead of combat being about who can do the most HP damage, its more a matter of a contest to see who's skill triumphs.

Finally, death. An unconsciousness system combined with an armor system like I mentioned opens up a lot of ossibilities. For one thing, we can make magical healing default to healing non-lethal damage. Your bruises and battering can be cleared up right quick. That huge gash on your arm, probably not. Now, as the party healer gets more skilled with his magic, he can start healing lethal damage (say, it converts on a 5 to 1 or 10 to 1 basis, so if he can heal 15 points of nonlethal damage with a single spell, under the first option, he could heal 3 points of lethal damage instead). Serious wounds, which put a character under 0, or even worse, past - 1/2CON (unconscious) could have serious side effects. Scars for diplomatic penalties, leg wounds for movement penalties, etc. With time or serious magical healing (which you'd have to work to mid to late game to learn, or shell out a boatload to a sympathetic healer) some of the penalties could be overcome, but they would not something you'd get over while out in the field, so to speak.

And finally, actual death. Under a system like this- I've got to say suck it up. You're character has his skills, and everything he can do to avoid failure, and you've got some leeway (albeit with consequences) and you almost won't be killed outright in a single blow. And if you're getting dropped a lot, you should have put more points in your characters defensive skills, or put soem thought into your tactics instead of charging in blindly.

Ressurection. Nope, sorry. You've got enough options as it is. Unless the setting really calls for it (and few do), rezzing is out on its ear. Maybe that once in a life-time divine intervention (and I do mean *once*, with lots of fun consequences with karmic debts to the gods). You can either live or die with the consequences of your actions, or you can be a pansy and reload.

I also like the idea of minions to do the bulk of the dying. 'Yes, we four alone must defeat the Dark Lord of Cliches'. 'Well actually, Sir Vercengetorix of Lava Lamp, I was going to hire that mercenary band to help us out. Because your way is stupidly suicidal.'
 

kingcomrade

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Yeah, because CRPG's and books are EXACTLY THE SAME MEDIUM!
Since when? I was referring to how they both have plots. Don't be retarded.
Removing the influence of any outcome for which the player normally has control is weak in any CRPG and only serves to pull you out of the game.
Not buying it; also, are you changing your story? Before, it was "lazy writing." You didn't answer my question, are you saying that no storyline ever should be allowed to kill a character?
 

RK47

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He won't concede that point KC, cause he knows he's pwned. :P

But I somewhat agree if he's frustrated with lack of choices when it comes to NPC plot related death, specially party member's forced death. Whether the main char is paralyzed(Oblivion, FF7), or was not on the scene of murder and somehow the game system of resurrection would not let the protagonist resurrect the NPC (NWN2).
 

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I just started playing Planescape Torment, and I've got to say that it's got quite an interesting way of dealing with death... even though I haven't died a lot yet. It seems to actually be part of the advancement system.

Didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so meh.


And some other ideas I've come across on the internets:

- Prey has an interesting response to this question. The character never really dies. When the character dies he's thrown in the afterworld and the player must fight to regain health (and mana) in a limited time. He's progressively sucked back to the physical world. Then he only has the health and mana he regained in the afterworld. Simple but efficient.

- One way to limit the usefulness of "explore new features without fear" is to make powerful, unique artifacts (if you are planning any in your game - think Phial of Galadrial in Angband) that can only be found once. If they are found while exploring and then the player restores from a save point after dying or committing suicide or going really badly and giving up then the artifact is gone forever and CANNOT be found again. If players want the artifact then they will need to play carefully to get back to the save point with the artifact which is far away from the critical place where the artifact was found in order to save the game again.
 

Ladonna

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Savepoints create a new problem: Oh look, I have to get to work because I am late!!! Have to save! oh no, I can't!. The last save point was 2 hours ago.

The life after death (Go to a different plane and find a way back) sounds cool in theory, however, it would eventually get repetitive after continual visits (Unless you made it huge, with different things that can happen, and places to end up).

I get where many people here are coming from, but I am still amazed that you guys don't get bored as all hell trudging through the parts of the game that you know, back to front. When playing Nethack, fair enough, its always different. But the thought of going through the same old encounters, again and again....You guys must know of some games that I have yet to see. Please tell me where to get them?
 

JarlFrank

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Ladonna got a point there, forced ironman mode would be extremely frustrating.
Not only because you lost your precious character, no - imagine a design flaw in such a game, like an almost impossible to beat enemy in a mainquest dungeon you NEED to kill. You die after the first try. You need to make another character. With him you die there too. I wouldn't play that game again until a mod is released that removes the ironman mode...

But I'd really love the idea of OPTIONAL ironman mode, as Diablo 2 had it. Either do it, or don't, you have to choose during character creation, if you go for ironman, well, you're stuck with it for this char.
 

Ladonna

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Nothing wrong with optional Iron man mode, at all.

The problem that has hit new games is that they are piss weak, with little challenge at all because they cater to the 6-65 years of age market. Idiotic.

Turning the scales on their head doesn't cut it either. Giving you the choice in these matters is preferable, with a nicely challenging game on 'Normal', 'Easy' for the retards and 'IRON UBER GROFAZ' for the masochists. Choice and consequence..... :wink:

If someone can come up with a working model of these new death choices, that would be sweet. Even a 10 minute 'showcase' would be good to get the feel and commentate.
 

Sirbolt

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kingcomrade said:
Since when? I was referring to how they both have plots. Don't be retarded.
Sure, they both have plots, but they can't be compared so your point is not made. Useless comparison my retarded American friend.

Not buying it; also, are you changing your story? Before, it was "lazy writing." You didn't answer my question, are you saying that no storyline ever should be allowed to kill a character?

In an ortodox RPG then no story should EVER be allowed to kill a player character without the player having control of the situation. Sure, make it insurmountably hard to keep that character alive if you must, but don't take away my control if i've had it up to that point. It reeks of deus ex machina and should be avoided at all costs. Feel free to disagree though.

Edited for spelling. ARGH!
 

JarlFrank

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Sirbolt said:
In an ortodox RPG then no story should EVER be allowed to kill a player character without the player having control of the situation. Sure, make it insurmantably hard to keep that character alive if you must, but don't take away my control if i've had it up to that point. It reeks of deus ex machina and should be avoided at all costs. Feel free to disagree though.

This IS a good point indeed, you should at least be offered a chance to prevent that death. It might be excruciatingly hard, but at least you're getting a try.
And it would make for some fun consequences if the character survives.

However, [most] game devs have other things to do than thinking about an alternate story path in case the character survives...
but it would be amazing if they did.
 
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ViolentOpposition said:
- Prey has an interesting response to this question. The character never really dies. When the character dies he's thrown in afterworld and the player must fight to regain health (and mana) in a limited time. He's progressively sucked back to the physical world. Then he only have the health and mana he regains in the afterworld. Simple but efficient.

Yes, including mandatory godmode to a game is clearly the solution we need. :roll:
 

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It's not god mode, it's a sort of resurrection.
 

JarlFrank

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It's a sort of alternative to constant reloading.

Actually, saving and reloading 500 times is also a kind of god mode, but you don't notice it. And it's less fun than a small "resurrection game" like in Prey.
 

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