Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

PARPG - a nuclear winter RPG moving towards a 2nd techdemo

hiver

Guest
Any games that feature this kind of combat in an entertaining way? I've no set opinion on the topic so this is another case for the mysterious to be found gameplay department.
No. But it can be done.
Though if it is implemented it must be take into account from the beginning. I belong to the school of thought that it isnt entertaining to be forced to kill every single opponent in a game.

Non-lethal combat can provide additional layer of gameplay thats very deep in the C&C department if designed properly.

- it has to be an option available to the player, not forced on him always

- there should be no "non-lethal" damage for ordinary deadly weapons

- Instead player could choose to learn "non-lethal" hand to hand combat vs "lethal" and be able to use some weapons such as clubs, tasers and the like when fighting.

- even in "lethal" combat enemies should be prone to surrendering sometimes which player could accept and then have some dialogue based option on what to do with those opponents or just proceed to kill them if he so chooses.

- and this is a nice place to pimp my thread over at IT once more
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=294.0


Oh and increasing the role of main attributes to make them work together when affecting skills and abilities would be nice to avoid reliance on only specific ones too much.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... opic=285.0

No plans for lone wolf gameplay. The most appealing option is a single PC but with additional support by various NPCs which you can recruit in the course of the game. Fallout and Arcanum are good examples how this could work.
I agree. So far this has been the best way of handling it.
It only needs some improvements in area of issuing simple commands to such NPCs in a fight.

One thing Fallout really made me want to see in this area is a possibility of setting up those NPCs with "jobs" so the player has further use of them.
It would prevent the feel of them behaving like mindless slaves and just following the player indefinitely.

For example setting Vic up in some store after a while so you can trade your stuff there and have him repair and modify your equipment for more or less lower prices.

Or setting up Cassidy as a leader of some raider gang you beat into submission and then have him work for your ends. maybe staging attacks on caravans belonging to one of the sides or attacking some city and so on.

All of this provides opportunity for many smaller quests in order to achieve it and a satisfying close of relationships with those NPCs, me thinks, rather then just dismissing them completely or dragging them along indefinitely.

I always liked how in fallout NPCs only level up while they are with you making the choice of which ones to take an important thing. A choice with consequences.

Also some form of interaction between the player and them in a sense of teaching each other some skills in limited manner directly would be good.
For example Vic showing you how to fix things better or you teaching Myron how to shoot a bit better.

One thing Fallout received a lot of complaints about is poor handling of NPCs in combat.
I always thought some of their early behaviors really fitting and it should be kept at the start but improved significantly later on to provide the player with sense of accomplishment in training his NPCs and sense of their clear noticeable progression as they level up.

So at the start they should exhibit (depending on the type of NPC character or "class" naturally) the same stupid behavior in combat as most Fallout NPCs had. Making mistakes and killing you or other party members or themselves "occasionally" - but improve over time.

Oh and groin shots are mandatory naturally.
 

The_scorpion

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
1,056
mvBarracuda said:
The_scorpion said:
*ruleset
I hope you don't rule out party-based gameplay by picking a ruleset that is geared only toward a single alter ego character.
No plans for lone wolf gameplay. The most appealing option is a single PC but with additional support by various NPCs which you can recruit in the course of the game. Fallout and Arcanum are good examples how this could work. Party interaction in PS:T was pretty nice however I would prefer if you can't completely control your party NPCs (e.g. in combat) simply because they should act as individuals and not as marionettes of the PC.

I wouldn't object to a customizable party either, as found in DungeonMaster or the Realms of Arkania series (these are the party-based games I played). The whole topic needs further discussion; what can be said at the moment is that one single lone wolf player character is the only option I wouldn't support.

okay, hmm, i hope you don't mind if i make a complicated suggestion of which i have no clue about its implementation.

You don't like the idea of an actual party where the control over non-alter ego's is the same as over that alter ego

i don't like meaningless disposable "buddies" that are annoying and that must be dragged on by an often generic alter ego or avatar, especially when their combat AI is total crap.

So what about a ruleset that allows for different levels of player control of additional party members? The ruleset defines a state or relation that the NPC in the party has: A civilian that we only escort to safety somewhere is the one that the player can do the least about during combat. Yet that npc would stay rather passive AI wise. A soldier or such that stands under the command of the PC on the other side of the spectrum would be almost as controllable as the player character himself, because he's bound to his direct orders. There may be variations inbetween according to what makes most sense of a character in question.

The advantage of such a system would clearly be that all kinds of characters can be termporaily made parts of the party but act in sensible ways. This allows to adjust the party from a hero (avatar) singlehandledly rescuing some helpless person from a dungeon to a larger group of organised armed characters to take on other factions in tactically advanced combat.

This increases the range of possible missions that can be displayed in sensible ways. You don't need to drag along an entire squad of soldiers to solve some riddle somewhere in town, yet if you want to assault a raider's camp or mutant stronghold (or whatever) it makes little sense to do that alone (and it provides for less advanced combat)

So ultimately, the NPC's should act as individuals in respect to their relation to the PC and should have an AI (where there is no player control) that takes this into account. Those that follow direct orders would be almost exclusivly player controlled, while some guys randomly joining in the path but not subject to your orders would act rather independantly (however, there's AI limits, so if in doubt --> Player control)

(you may also want to have modifiers according to your PC's skills, e.g. an uncharismatic PC would likely have less control over his party member's actions etc.)
 

hiver

Guest
Thats actually a very nice idea.
Probably very hard to actually do.But it would give some nice and appropriate variation to companion NPCs.
Though even in the case of NPCs with full military experience i would prefer limited control over them instead of complete one like BG, for example.
 

mvBarracuda

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
478
Sounds great to me the_scorpion. I'll need to talk to the tbf programming department later but I added a note at the wiki as the concept sounds quite promising to me.
 

The_scorpion

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
1,056
thanks for considering my 2 cents guys. it isn't a fully thought through concept, but i'm glad if the underlying ideas are considered:

three core elements:

1. the level of commitment of the companion NPC to the alter ego's cause should have an effect on how detailed that characters is portrayed and controlled
2. the level of subordination and loyalty of the NPC to the alter ego as a person should have an effect on what kind of orders can be issued to him
3. Different standard AI for different types of companions when companions are not under player control so that AI issues that arise with disposable thugs don't arise with the princess to be saved from the lion's den :)

and as a bonus, a skill that modifies the possibility of having more control. A loner alter ego migth want to solve a quest alone, some people might travel his path with him, but he cares primarily for his own issues, while a very charismatic alter ego might mobilise a squad under his command and post his concept on all slightly related websites he can find :-D
 

zenbitz

Scholar
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
295
OK, I am playing along with you Scorpion.

I was thinking something along these lines for all NPCs in a game. They would have personalities/alignments on some multidimensional scale (like 8 dimensions or something). As an example, start by adapting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_p ... ity_traits. Specific to your typical conflict oriented cPRG you would want some measure of:

1) Honor / Lawfulness - does the NPC approve of "lawbreaking" activities; betrayal of others, etc.?
2) Violence - does the NPC like fight or flight?
3) How bribeable is the NPC? - could be related to honor
4) What factions does he like/hate/indiffer?
5) What are his/her goals or wants?

This is in addition to their skills, equipment etc.

NOW - maybe the PC has some kind of ratings is some or all of these - defines "friendship" as a compatibility distance. If compatibility is > some threshold, then NPC is eliglble to "join up" (obviously you would have to have some flag for "won't join up 'cause he needs to mind the gun shop"). The higher the friendship - the more likely the NPC takes orders. (But only orders that correspond to his tendencies).

This also opens up PC development to leadership / tactics types skills and attributes
 

zenbitz

Scholar
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
295
What do people think of a combat system (turned-based) that varies as to "scale"? One of the things that annoyed me about FO was that the tactical combat seemed well suited to indoor fights (ranges and what not), but not outdoor. This is, of course, due to indoor/outdoor maps being basically identical.

Another thing I didn't like was that you had no problem "sniping" some horrible beasty or devastating melee fighter from point blank range. (The exception was the scoped hunting rifle). I think this is what lead to "diplosniper" being such a popular character.

But maybe I am the only one annoyed by stuff like that.

I think non lethal combat would be pretty easy to implement - just make it so that most attacks aren't 1-hit kills and that things "surrender" when they are wounded to a certain degree. What you do with your captives is another issue... but probably not hard to implement.
 

mvBarracuda

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
478
It's time for a little news update :)

We've boiled down possible setting and game mechanics aspects in the last week. So far we've agreed on a nuclear winter setting; furthermore the game will take place in Northern Europe / Scandinavia. In case you're interested about the details, feel free to check out the full news update at the PARPG development blog.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,956
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
As a programmer, I'd always suggest NOT using Python (except for doing in-game scripting).
Depending on the number and quality of programmers you get, of course.
Sure, it may be faster at first, but you'll have to limit yourself quite a lot after some time in development, especially if you plan to make it big.
Also, are there any good tools for projects using Python? (serious question)

Big games with Python? Uh-huh...

Also, I AM interested, but have absolutely no time :(

Edit:
You could do prototyping in Python, and write the real program in C# or C++, but IMHO, depending on how much time you have "planned", even that could be wasted time.
 

mvBarracuda

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
478
Projects using Python in combination with C++:
Battlefield 2
Civilization 4
Eve Online
TOEE

With FIFE we always have the chance to move time-critical code to engine side (C++) so that should not be a major worry IMO.
 

denizsi

Arcane
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
9,927
Location
bosphorus
My thoughts on parties from ITS thread about parties in RPGs:

1. Other than combat, what are (or should be) the advantages of having a party? What would be a good reason not to solo?

Access to various social circles that are not available to you without a specific party member, which brings in its own opportunities for side quests or even more insight into any quest itself, including the main quest. Imagine that you learn more about a quest, may even be main quest, thanks to one of the characters in your party who introduced you to different characters who know different things, which in turn may affect the direction you'd like to take in regards to main quest / any quest. Beyond being a trivial tool for Bethesda type "good at everything" gameplay (more on that below), party members are invaluable social tools.

Beyond individual character skills, party members can offer more paths to solve quests, available again through their own social circles. A certain quest for which you'd need to break in to a specific place may suddenly become easier because you have a party member associated with certain characters related to the quest. He knows someone who knows someone etc. and now you have an easier way into the place, whereas another quest might be more difficult than it would be because of the same character.

Likewise, a character may insist that they visit his mother who (s)he heard is in deathbed, where you can make a judgement call to agree, disagree and kick his ass, disagree but tell him to come back when he's ok or disagree and persuade him that she will be dead by the time (s)he goes and the current task at hand is more important (all of which may come back to bite you in the ass or help you at some point in future).

Social baggages character might carry is the best excuse to have a party in my opinion.

Party dynamics - your thoughts and ideas.

A game mechanic where your character can statistically benefit (or get hampered) from social interaction maybe. For instance, in an imaginary character creation that's like a cross between Fallout and Daggerfall and can choose perks such as "loner" or "people person" which could determine certain predispositions for certain skills in regards to the party members, you may have a character that's dependant on others' presence around himself/herself for most efficient use of his/her own abilities and vice versa.

If having party members won't bring their own negatives in addition to the benefits, much like balancing your character in creation with tags in Fallout or advantages/disadvantages in Daggerfall, the party mechanic itself becomes usually trivial. The most common and usually the inevitable setup that is one guy that does fighting, one guy that does magic, one that steals and picks locks and one talker, isn't much difference than becoming master of everything in games like Morrowind or Oblivion. You still get to have access to all different fields and then the only meaning of having part members is the ability to carry more and their individual ability to leave the party or die, but then again, you can usually find replacements. To me, that's not enough of an excuse to have party members.

There may even be a general predisposition for sociality of the character that's based on things like, I don't know, how often the characters talk? Things they say when they talk? Their social circles? (I certainly wouldn't like to befriend a junkie who attracts other junkies). Whether a certain character is more of a statistical benefit or negative to your own abilties would become more clear as you spend more time with that character, while the effects of the positive and negative sides would also become more observable (increasing modifiers for the effects) with the time. That could provide you the in game perception to draw a line somewhere or stick to a character, and it might also make it more important to stick to a characters. Obviously, if a certain character helps bring the best out of you, why part with him/her? Likewise, you could care more about the death or ill condition of such a character. I certainly didn't give a shit about Imoen in either Baldur's Gate games when she was ever in a critical condition. I certainly wouldn't change my route, my gameplan just because the bitch would die or died but can be ressurrected. But if she provided benefits to my character's own efficiency beyond her own skills, I certainly would.

However, some social skills like manipulation and what not, should enable you to withstand/negate negative effects so you can play the weasel in a party, or manipulate and use characters like tools until you no longer need. A little more on this as a reply to the 4th question.

The same kind of mechanics should be present between other characters as well. You may have two characters in your party that you like to keep but they hardly cope with each other. A party member might be bothered by the social circle of another member. "He always attracts junkies, so I say we kick his ass".

Party members' ability to double-cross you about certain things or turn on you instead of a bitchy "I'm leaving", because you ignored all the warning signs, or even do things behind you and dump you when you need him/her the most. If the recruitable characters are to be designed with their own proper social circles, their place and relations in those circles, and all these circles' standing with each other, incredible gameplay options could emerge (emerge not as in "totally unplanned", but rather "completely unexpected by the PC").

Another interesting mechanic might be manipulating other party members yourself. A little on this below.

Ah, also, in-party talk, though that's nothing new I guess. Whenever you meet someone new, go to a new place, etc. party members can comment on it, say "there's no fucking way I'm crossing this rotting bridge". BUT, we need even more input from them. For instance, they could comment on and suggest travel options in a travel map, suggest alternate routes, give you info about surroundings (though that would depend on the nature of the travel map).

4. Leadership - should you always be the leader or would you, the player, be ok if someone else takes over and tell you "listen, pal, we've talked and decided to go to town X. You're welcome to tag alone, but we aint going to Y at the moment. If you need us, you know where to find us". What about being challenged for the right to lead? Party members voting for or against certain quests?

In addition to that, ability to "conquer" party members one by one might be nice. You join them, based on the "company" predispositions I described above, you get to befriend them, gain their trust, manipulate them around and persuade them into your own agenda. Really, having a party shouldn't just mean having sidekicks to compensate for where you fail, but as story or other gameplay devices as well. If there are many characters who you could party with, and various bands of adventurers where a specific one with their own specific goals and agendas might prove useful to you either in siding with them or in leading them do their doom, then why not do it? Hell, joining a party just to lead them to their doom could even be a quest!

5. What's a good party member? What qualities/traits/contributions would you expect from such an individual?

One that has a meaningful social standing that will effect you for siding with him/her. "Geez, I can't believe Vince befriended that pedophile!". "Oh my fucking god, Vince is dating the hottest girl in the school, he's gotta be so cool".
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,956
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
mvBarracuda said:
Projects using Python in combination with C++:
Battlefield 2
Civilization 4
Eve Online
TOEE

Yeah, well. I seriously doubt that they use Python for other things than scripting or supporting their base code ;)
 

mvBarracuda

Augur
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
478
Not true for Eve Online. AFAIR the complete Eve Online server was written in Python. And as said: you can always profile and rewrite too slow Python code in C++.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,956
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Maybe, but I don't think filtering out the too-slow parts and then rewriting them in C++ is a very good strategy to start with, since C++ is faster anyway...

Well, possible. I just wouldn't do it *shrug*
 

zenbitz

Scholar
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
295
sheep - it is about 10x faster to write running code in python than C++ for a typical programmer. So if 90% of the code is not time limiting, Python is fine, and 90% of hit can be written in 9% of the equivalent time to write it in C++. The last 10% has to be rewritten in C++ - but that's only a fraction of the effort.

At least, that's the theory.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom