Skill-gain system NOT based on numerical values and points

poetic codex · Oct 4, 2010

If there's one thing about RPG's that I've grown weary of is the levelling system which reduces combat to killing stuff to get get more points to spend on skills with numeric values. (I know this probably means it's time to quit the genre altogether).

I understand why this mechanic has been used over and over, but would it kill one person to step out of the mold? What's even more frustrating for me is that games like The Witcher and Dragon Age have flirted, and given hints at something different, but did not go all the way.

I'm talking about a skill-gain system based on your decisions, or even on accidents rather than just killing stuff for points.

In the Witcher, depending on where you choose to explore, you will learn signs in different order, or might even miss a sign altogether. I would love a more in-depth implementation of this method of gaining skills. It rewards exploration, or you could choose not to explore and save those discoveries for future playthroughs.

In Dragon Age certain "prestige classes" become available if you make certain choices. I liked this, but, again, I want to see a more in-depth version of this implemented in a game.

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Let me illustrate an example of what I'm thinking about: imagine a game where your character is truly a blank slate at the beginning.

You don't choose a class, and there's no point-buy system for skills and stats. Instead you start off as a blank slate in a room where there's some bandits beating down on your door.

If you choose to jump through the window, you gain the first level of the "Acrobat" class which comes with its own unique set of skills, one of which is the ability to perform feats of daring.

If you choose to pick up the knife lying on the floor and await your assailants, you will gain the first level of the "Brawler" class, which comes with a very different set if skills than the acrobats. One of these skills is the ability to find weak spots on enemies to make you deliver devastating blows with that knife.

If you choose to open the door and talk to them and manage to bluff them convincingly , you will gain the first level of the "Diplomat" class. Note: this attempt to bluff the bandits will be just as tricky as the Shrouded Hills bridge part in Arcanum, but there is no skill check, and it is not stat dependent, since your char is a blank slate at this point. But if you manage to succeed, then one of the perks of the Diplomat class would be subtle hints that would help you select the right dialogue choices in future tricky scenarios like this. For characters without that Diplomat class, all attempts to bluff would be just as hard as that scene in Arcanum.

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As you play the game, and make more choices like the one above, you will fine tune your character with new classes and skills. For example, suppose our Acrobat from above performed a class feat which made him climb into a hole that would be inaccessible to anyone without this class. Inside this hole, he finds a fragment of a scroll from an ancient school of magic. If he chooses to take this to a scholar to decipher it, he would learn the spell from that scroll. No other characters without the acrobat class would be able to access this spell, because they wouldn't be able to find it int he first place.

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That was just a rough, offhand sketch of the kind of thing I'm talking about. A skill gain system that is not based on killing stuff to get points to pump into skills with numerical values.

spectre · Oct 4, 2010

Silly goose, if you want to program it, you'll need to put in numbers sometime, somewhere anyway.

This whole perk-based character progression you suggest is a nice idea, but I still prefer the joys of number crunching, not to mention, two characters with same perk choices will be functionally identical which is meh.
Even in D&D 2D Edition, you could have warriors with different streght, intelligence, wisdom etc.

poetic codex · Oct 4, 2010

spectre said:
Silly goose, if you want to program it, you'll need to put in numbers sometime, somewhere anyway.

This whole perk-based character progression you suggest is a nice idea, but I still prefer the joys of number crunching, not to mention, two characters with same perk choices will be functionally identical which is meh.
Even in D&D 2D Edition, you could have warriors with different streght, intelligence, wisdom etc.

I'm puzzled by this comment here. If anything, the system I proposed would lead to more variety not less. The only way to get two characters with the same "perk choices" (as you call it), would be to play the game twice and make the exact same decisions twice.

Destroid · Oct 4, 2010

Re: Skill-gain system NOT based on numerical values and po

poetic codex said:
If there's one thing about RPG's that I've grown weary of is the levelling system which reduces combat to killing stuff to get get more points to spend on skills with numeric values. (I know this probably means it's time to quit the genre altogether).

I understand why this mechanic has been used over and over, but would it kill one person to step out of the mold? What's even more frustrating for me is that games like The Witcher and Dragon Age have flirted, and given hints at something different, but did not go all the way.

I'm talking about a skill-gain system based on your decisions, or even on accidents rather than just killing stuff for points.

In the Witcher, depending on where you choose to explore, you will learn signs in different order, or might even miss a sign altogether. I would love a more in-depth implementation of this method of gaining skills. It rewards exploration, or you could choose not to explore and save those discoveries for future playthroughs.

In Dragon Age certain "prestige classes" become available if you make certain choices. I liked this, but, again, I want to see a more in-depth version of this implemented in a game.

-----------------------------------------

Let me illustrate an example of what I'm thinking about: imagine a game where your character is truly a blank slate at the beginning.

You don't choose a class, and there's no point-buy system for skills and stats. Instead you start off as a blank slate in a room where there's some bandits beating down on your door.

If you choose to jump through the window, you gain the first level of the "Acrobat" class which comes with its own unique set of skills, one of which is the ability to perform feats of daring.

If you choose to pick up the knife lying on the floor and await your assailants, you will gain the first level of the "Swasher" class, which comes with a very different set if skills than the acrobats. One of these skils is the ability to find weak spots on enemies to make you deliver devastating blows with that knife.

If you choose to open the door and talk to them and manage to bluff them convincingly , you will gain the first level of the "Diplomat" class. Note: this attempt to bluff the bandits will be just as tricky as the Shrouded Hills bridge part in Arcanum, but there is no skill check, and it is not stat dependent, since your char is a blank slate at this point. But if you manage to succeed, then one of the perks of the Diplomat class would be subtle hints that would help you select the right dialogue choices in future tricky scenarios like this. For characters without that Diplomat class, all attempts to bluff would be just as hard as that scene in Arcanum.

------

As you play the game, and make more choices like the one above, you will fine tune your character with new classes and skills. For example, suppose our Acrobat from above performed a class feat which made him climb into a hole that would be inaccessible to anyone without this class. Inside this hole, he finds a fragment of a scroll from an ancient school of magic. If he chooses to take this to a scholar to decipher it, he would learn the spell from that scroll. No other characters without the acrobat class would be able to access this spell, because they wouldn't be able to find it int he first place.

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That was just a rough, offhand sketch of the kind of thing I'm talking about. A skill gain system that is not based on killing stuff to get points to pump into skills with numerical values.

Many games have had character creation like this, although it usually takes the form of a quiz, such as in Morrowind or Ultima 6.

PennyAnte · Oct 4, 2010

Bethesda's Elder Scrolls games (and it's Fallout-themed game) have skill gain based on action, without adding whole classes. You run, you get athletics, you use a sword, you get more sword skill.

It has its own ways of cheesing the system, one being that everyone can get fully skilled in everything, and min/maxers can do things like get bitten by a rat over and over to level armor skills.

deus101 · Oct 4, 2010

do something and gain the first level of the something

Why not just replay oblivion?

More noncombat elements to interact in the gameworld is something which is sorely needed in almost any RPG games, especially since everything now cut down to

Diplomacy[][][]
Threaten[][]

Cutting the implementation of skills to a scale of five, each with rigidly tailored abilities will just give up the idea of having a system were quests, challenges and encounters will have varied choices and instead have a few rigidly tailored hallways for the CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES story.

deus101 · Oct 4, 2010

Also...methinks you be baiting.....but thats just me.

JarlFrank · Oct 4, 2010

spectre said:
Silly goose, if you want to program it, you'll need to put in numbers sometime, somewhere anyway.

Yep. Numbers, in any kind of way, are needed. And even if it's only a "0" and a "1" for either having a skill or not having it.

Rogue · Oct 4, 2010

(I know this probably means it's time to ~~quit the genre altogether~~ find better things to do).

fixed

denizsi · Oct 4, 2010

And how is any of that NOT based on numerical values and points? At any rate, remember to check out Project Monkey thread in Workshop thread for all of your innovative! ideas in the future and the following relevant quality thread for quality discussion:

How to make a numberless (but stat-heavy) system WORK

poetic codex · Oct 4, 2010

Why is it that here on the codex, people's first instincts is to go into "debate mode" ? Can't there ever be a thread where the goal is to simply bounce ideas around in a constructive way?

I never said that what I talked about here was original. In fact, I mentioned in my first post that other RPG's have done something like this. My point here is to go all the way, and implement it to its fullest extent. To make a system where this kind of thing is the main course, not added gravy.

Thanks for linking to that thread about the numberless system. There are many sympathetic ideas in there, although the OP seemed to face similar criticisms and that was 2005 !

deus101 · Oct 4, 2010

"I found a rocket launcher which now means i'm leveled up to fire rockets"

anywhooo...

You're beef isnt with the numerical or point based system your beef is the fact that neither Wither, mass effect or DA has any meaningful non combat attributes.

Remember, variation gets in way of CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES!

laclongquan · Oct 4, 2010

Boyo, because you are TALKING and not DOING stuff. If you show us a working idea with a viable model, we will listen to it, contribute even. B ut if you cant even stand a little criticism how can you have the gumtion to do things that flying in the face of convention?

We are RPG gamers. Worse, we are CODEXIA. picking things apart is what we're good at.

As for your idea. Once you learn the first level (know) the skill, how will it advance further? will it advance when you do something in quest/conversation, ala text adventure? or will it advance through a skill buy system?

And pray tell, what's better or worse: level 1-2-infinity or level beginner-proficient-experienced-master... PST (IE games) do that route once but that's not too different from the other system, to be honest.

denizsi · Oct 4, 2010

Butthurt newfag cannot into discussion. If he can't face some criticism, ridicule and whatnot, he's better left alone.

Black Cat · Oct 4, 2010

poetic codex said:
In the Witcher, depending on where you choose to explore, you will learn signs in different order, or might even miss a sign altogether. I would love a more in-depth implementation of this method of gaining skills. It rewards exploration, or you could choose not to explore and save those discoveries for future playthroughs.

Taking this quote somewhat outside the context of the rest of your post, since Black Cat is lazy and cannot into reading long posts, you are describing either a Metroidvania-ish game or Zelda-ish game with some bonus skills or optional upgrades instead of a role playing one. There's nothing wrong with them, really, and I actually find them to be more fun than some of the things that pass as games around here but they are not role playing games. At all. Not even a little bit. Not even close.

hiver · Oct 4, 2010

Good idea.
I would love to play a game like that.

Having my character abilities or skills influenced, changed or gained directly through gameplay decisions - either dialogue choices, or actions/inaction's, or simply by choices in what area to explore, what quests to follow through - would be awesome.

Instead of earning any kind of points and then distributing those over the character sheet.

That would truly integrate the Choice and Consequence into the gameplay itself rather then it being a feature lightly sprinkled over the rest of the mechanics as DA:O or the Witcher did.

I think i had a very similar idea somewhere, somewhen.

/

Try to pay as little attention as you can to retards here who are not big on reading comprehension and rather talk about what they perceive then what is actually said/written.

Its a sad state of the codex these days and discussions rarely if ever go beyond these dumbasses failing to understand anything - inventing the "real meaning" an then just shitting over that - not realizing they are shitting over their malfunctioning brains.

Baron · Oct 4, 2010

Codex is a prison. New posters need to immediately shank someone, otherwise its a trip to the infirmary to stem the hemorrhaging. Starting a thread is like showering upon arrival and asking other prisoners to scrub your back. Anyway, welcome aboard Andy Dufresne, good topic.

I agree about losing the skill points. I've been playing around with a system and destroying all numbers where possible. Maybe it's that I am suspicious of mathematicians the way that some people distrust scientists, I have never like number crunchers or the focus on 'builds', (I'd rather they concentrate on alignment and character.) I am not even sure the PC will advance in hitpoints, (they will just have to scrounge thicker armour, or be quicker at killing others before they're hit.)

Feats or Spells would primarily be gained from training with masters once they're discovered, by paying them, serving them, etc. I think it was Origin's Knights of Legend had this... I can't recall. Except I'll add tasks the PC might find compromising. The path to power will involve stepping on a few toes, and, if it involves a magical ritual, possibly eating them.

I want Alignment to be seemlessly integrated into the game, no red or blue dialogue, just actions. Allow the PC to decide how much they want to learn or increase an ability, and what they are willing to do to acquire it. The idea for this came from my favourite 80s Hong Kong movie, The Sword, where heroic swordsman Li Mak-Yin sought out masters to defeat but faced many moral repercussions from his actions (and the kungfu treachery of his enemies.) Similar to the OP's idea the PC would start off with no class, but would soon choose one of the classic four. I don't want to use skills because you never have enough. And they become too much work to implement evenly throughout the game. Stat checks suffice for the lone modder, and it's actually a good way to eliminate dump stats.

While I like your suggestion of feats/skills made available based upon the PC's own actions, it reminds me of Ultima IV's opening scene caravan. I loved the concept and would answer all the questions, and then I would shout at the monitor "Tinker?!! WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?!" and restart until I had Mage. I know it's optional now (then too?) It's just one of those system you love in principle and hate in practice. I wonder if upon playing your obscured ability system would produce a Backstabbing Rogue, where I had thought I was playing a righteous Paladin. It has the potential to disappoint, but if done unambiguously could work. Conan, afterall, would be a Barbarian with Rogue feats.

ironyuri · Oct 4, 2010

Baron said:
Codex is a prison. New posters need to immediately shank someone

I just shanked DragoFireheart. Feels good. :smug:

Edit - If you're looking for easy targets- Liberal/Cloaked Figure/skyway

They take their shankings and they like it.

SCO · Oct 4, 2010

hiver said:
Good idea.
I would love to play a game like that.

Having my character abilities or skills influenced, changed or gained directly through gameplay decisions - either dialogue choices, or actions/inaction's, or simply by choices in what area to explore, what quests to follow through - would be awesome.

Instead of earning any kind of points and then distributing those over the character sheet.

That would truly integrate the Choice and Consequence into the gameplay itself rather then it being a feature lightly sprinkled over the rest of the mechanics as DA:O or the Witcher did.

I think i had a very similar idea somewhere, somewhen.

/

Try to pay as little attention as you can to retards here who are not big on reading comprehension and rather talk about what they perceive then what is actually said/written.

Its a sad state of the codex these days and discussions rarely if ever go beyond these dumbasses failing to understand anything - inventing the "real meaning" an then just shitting over that - not realizing they are shitting over their malfunctioning brains.

Play Quest for Glory. The puzzles depend on the stats you have available. While there are classes, and they influence the plot, most puzzles ("quests") solutions depend only on the skills you have available and their value. It allows for hyper-versatile chars (combat tacticians despise that of course - not that there is anything of that in this series). It's also how i played BG - solo F/M/T (wish there was a C there too).
Once or twice in the series you can learn a new character skill ingame (typically in the previous game to the one that showed that skill in the char creation for the first time).

SCO · Oct 4, 2010

If there are people calling ME2 a rpg i can call qfg one.

Sceptic · Oct 4, 2010

SCO said:
If there are people calling ME2 a rpg i can call qfg one.

If ME2 is an RPG then QFG is a spreadsheet simulator.

They are awesome games too.

Baron · Oct 4, 2010

ironyuri said:
I just shanked DragoFireheart. Feels good.

Jim Profit for me. I think I called him a half aborted fuckwit.

poetic codex · Oct 4, 2010

It's good to see some more thoughtful responses. [salute]

Baron said:
I agree about losing the skill points. I've been playing around with a system and destroying all numbers where possible. Maybe it's that I am suspicious of mathematicians the way that some people distrust scientists, I have never like number crunchers or the focus on 'builds', (I'd rather they concentrate on alignment and character.) I am not even sure the PC will advance in hitpoints, (they will just have to scrounge thicker armour, or be quicker at killing others before they're hit.)

Hmm...sounds like you already have a more thought-out system than the stuff I threw out up there. Would you care to share more of it?

Feats or Spells would primarily be gained from training with masters once they're discovered, by paying them, serving them, etc. I think it was Origin's Knights of Legend had this... I can't recall. Except I'll add tasks the PC might find compromising. The path to power will involve stepping on a few toes, and, if it involves a magical ritual, possibly eating them.

Very good idea. In your version, I can even see how choosing to do a task for a master could have an influence on your alignment too. Drakensang had something like this, but, again, they did it in a half-baked way rather than full-implementation. You could only learn certain abilities by finding a "master" who would teach it, but once you found a master, it was just a simple matter of buying it from him with points. This, to me, defeated the whole point of having masters in the first place.

I want Alignment to be seamlessly integrated into the game, no red or blue dialogue, just actions. Allow the PC to decide how much they want to learn or increase an ability, and what they are willing to do to acquire it.

This confirms what I said above about how choosing to performing task for a master could have an influence on alignment. You're still maintaining an alignment system, but it's a hidden, internal system, not an in-your-face alignment meter that gives you plus or minus points to evil/good. (I think I have a vendetta against points

)

This leads right in to my next point:

I wonder if... your obscured ability system would produce a Backstabbing Rogue, where I had thought I was playing a righteous Paladin. It has the potential to disappoint, but if done unambiguously could work. Conan, afterall, would be a Barbarian with Rogue feats.

I wouldn't make it as extreme as the example you cited ("Backstabbing Rogue, where I had thought I was playing a righteous Paladin") but a milder version would be interesting I think. The player could make certain decisions, and have things turn out to be different than he anticipated. Like you said, this could lead to disappointment for many players, but perhaps they should look at it from another perspective. In real life, we can't always foresee how our decisions would turn out.

Suppose you chose to work for the fencing master, and one of his tasks was to go and fetch fire wood for him from the nearby forest. It later turns out that that particular part of the forest belonged to the king, and it was strictly forbidden for people to gather wood from there. Of course, the fencing master didn't tell you this little detail when he originally gave you the task. So your character has now broken the law, and angered the king, but received a very powerful new combat ability from the fencing master.

Also note here, the relativity of the alignment system, which reflects how things are in real life. The only reason the character did something illegal here is because of an arbitrary law by a whimsical king. If he was in a different land, this wouldn't be an issue at all. I prefer this instead of just labelling certain actions as objectively evil like how asking for reward money is considered an evil action in so many RPG's.

poetic codex · Oct 4, 2010

laclongquan said:
As for your idea. Once you learn the first level (know) the skill, how will it advance further? will it advance when you do something in quest/conversation, ala text adventure? or will it advance through a skill buy system?

It would be like the text adventure.There will be no skill-buy system, since that's what we're trying to eliminate.

In order to advance your class/skill, you simply make more decisions in line with that class/skill.

Going back to the scenario I made in my first post: Suppose you chose to hold the knife and fight off the bandits. You will become a level one Brawler, and get an ability called "Aimed blow" Later on in the game, you will face more scenarios with multiple ways out, and if you choose to fight again, you will gain another level in the class, and a new ability.

However, if someone who was previously a Diplomat, later on chose to fight in a scenario, he would gain a level in a melee class, but it would come with a different ability.

So:

Scenario 1 (bandits outside your bedroom) : Person A chose to fight the bandits. Becomes Brawler 1 with "Aimed Blow" ability.

Person B chose to talk with the bandits and succeeds. Becomes Diplomat and will have an easier time with talking his way out of situations in the future.

Scenario 2] (guy insults you in a tavern):

Person A chose to punch the guy who insulted him.The punch knocks the guy out cold. Becomes Brawler 2 with "Fortuitous Punch" ability

Person B chose to punch the guy who insulted him. Gains Brawler 1 with "Fortuitous Punch" ability. But is still a Diplomat and maintains the benefits of that class.

In other words, you're not really gaining set classes in the traditional way you think of it. You're just making decisions, and your character is directly shaped in accordance with the results of those decisions.

Even though some people compared my suggestion to Oblivion/Morrowind, I actually hate that system where you have to repeat tasks over and over to gain more points for your skills. It lead to players doing silly things like standing in place and jumping up and down :roll:

And pray tell, what's better or worse: level 1-2-infinity or level beginner-proficient-experienced-master... PST (IE games) do that route once but that's not too different from the other system, to be honest.

I agree! I also don't see much of a difference between those two forms of progression.

I think my system is neither of those two because the class/skill progression is purely situation dependent.

It is the scenarios that determine how you advance, and each scenario will come with its own pre-set class/skill combination. So you could only become a brawler with aimed blow if you chose to fight in scenario 1, and you could only become a brawler with fortuitous punch if you chose to fight in scenario 2.

When you gain the ability tied to the class, you gain the full benefits of the ability, and not a nerfed version which you then have to improve buy spending more points into it.

This eliminates both the 1-2-3...infinity and the beginner-proficient-experienced-master type of skill progression.

Baron · Oct 4, 2010

poetic codex said:
Suppose you chose to work for the fencing master, and one of his tasks was to go and fetch fire wood for him from the nearby forest...

So I go get the firewood and return, and the fencing master says "Dumbass, you now have Ranger levels." And then he leaves me with scars, here, and here.

By obscuring the consequences it's going to lead to annoyance as the player and creator interpret their actions differently, just like scripted Alignment changes. With Alignment I let a lot slide, just play your general alignment and have fun. It's not meant to penalise you, just open appropriate dialogue to play as heroes or villains. But every once and a while I have a key story node where the moral choices are very clear, and consequential. A Good PC will be offered a Good or Neutral choice, a Neutral PC can choose Good Neutral or Evil, and an Evil PC could choose Evil or Neutral. This stops 'out of character' behaviour but does allow the PC to slowly change over the course of the storyline, if they find redemption or are seduced by power. Same system for Law-Chaos too. As long as the choices are clear the Player can't complain. "Chaotic EVIL?! I burn down ONE church and some nuns!!"

While I like your system where the Player doesn't know what will be the consequences of what they do there is still a potential problem with Reload. I try to avoid systems where I think "This is good, but the Player is going to stop and reload the scene six times to see what all the outcomes or benefits" as this will ruin the replayability; a key feature for a game with considerable branching. One way around this is to store data from their action and have the consequence (training from a master) at a much later stage; players are less likely reload back 30 minutes but they will for two minutes.

Back on Skills, you could store data every time a PC chose a particular action (resorted to the 'Attack!' option in dialogue instead of 'Perhaps we can make a deal...') Each time they get to ten it makes a trainer available to teach them an associated ability. But, to ensure you don't get Swiss army knife characters, you need to ensure they don't run around doing everything. Opening up feats and classes is good, I think I'll be using a half-half system in regards to obscuring the benefits. I'll make it known that a particular Necromancer is infamous for his Boiling Liver spell. But I don't see why I should spell out exactly how much damage Boiling Liver spell does to some overly competitive loser. It's not a MMORG. You pick Boiling Liver because you want to Boil some villagers' livers. That's my envisaged world, and it's fucking beautiful.

Skill-gain system NOT based on numerical values and points

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