The Authentic RPG and its Tragic Demise

[DraQ]

Actually an RPG does not need combat. What it needs is a way to express (1). In other words, it needs gameplay that utilizes the character's attributes (and is limited by them). It just turns out that combat is a lot easier to (and there is more gamdev experience with it) model in this way and implement as a complex system than, say, dialogue. If there were a dialogue system just as complex as ToEE's combat, then I'd say that game could be an RPG.

And, the problem with dialogue *system* is that it would pretty much have to come pretty close to not failing a Turing's test. OTOH without mechanics you're just restricted to CYOA. I'm not against using some CYOA as a crutch, but relying on it entirely just doesn't make much of a game.

For me 1 is sufficient to classify a game as para-RPG (H&S or Dungeon Crawl, depending on some finer details) or "grandfathered" RPG.
3 is just subset of 1, so it shouldn't really be a separate point and since I don't really believe in necessity of having any sort of predefined story in RPG, my criterion for being a full RPG would be gameworld reacting meanigfully to player's actions.

 

[Mangoose]

I like thinking about what defines an RPG, so sue me for continuing the conversation.

Besides having stat-based gameplay, the other requirement for an RPG is character development. In other words, you are either forced to or strongly influenced to keep the same character(s) from the beginning of the game to the end of the game. Thus you are "roleplaying" and it serves to separate RPGs from tactical squad based combat games that have stat-based gameplay but feature a bunch of random soldiers that you can replace at will.

 

[mondblut]

Besides having stat-based gameplay, the other requirement for an RPG is character development.

Not necessarily. A bunch of games like Megatraveller doesn't have any character improvement and you're stuck with whatever you got out of character generator, but fuck me if they aren't RPGs. While building up stats is common, it is not mandatory.

Not to mention a single tabletop module which is not Monty Haul would rarely if ever involve a single levelup, so unless it's a part of a long campaign, you're again stuck with whatever you generated to the bitter end.

Thus you are "roleplaying" and it serves to separate RPGs from tactical squad based combat games that have stat-based gameplay but feature a bunch of random soldiers that you can replace at will.

What truly separates RPGs from tactical squad based combat games is the freedom of exploration and of picking one's own battles rather than being railroaded through a string of predetermined "missions" with no other activity than fighting them out and proceeding to the next one involved.

Just like it initially separated them back in 1973.

 

[sheek]

Definition: A role playing game is an exploration game where you set off on an adventure quest (find the 7 moonstones, kill the evil warlock are typical) while controlling 1-8 characters who you can adapt/customize as you like and your judgement in control of the characters is the main factor in whether/how you win the game.

Everyone happy?

 

[sheek]

BTW, contrary to modern Codex received wisdom Deus Ex, System Shock and X-Com are not RPGs...

 

[Black Cat]

This thread is making me start to believe I can forward this as the best role playing game ever made and get away with it. It's only lacking in what can change the nature of a man?

Edit:
In before it's not an RPG, it's an ARPG!

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

This is internet, you can make any claim you like and still get away with it.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

So, "cRPG" is an arbitrary sub-genre of interactive fiction that relies, to some extent, on the statistical attributes of the protagonist(or group thereof) to solve and/or evade problems present within the gameworld.


I win this thread, yes?

<edit>"IF? FU" No, sir. FU. </edit>

 

[potemkin]

the problem with dialogue *system* is that it would pretty much have to come pretty close to not failing a Turing's test

You don't need a completely open dialog system, you can still role-play with a few reasonable choices for each situation.

IMO there is no game without a story, even "I'm doing nothing" is a story so the issue is: can the player choose which direction the story takes within the limitations of his character? If yes, then it's an RPG. This rules out games like Mario, Mass Effect and Final Fantasy which are adventure, dungeon crawler or whatever.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

I'll get beat down for bringing up a console game for the PS1, but eh ... Lunar Siliver Story is a game I'd consider to be an RPG, yet it has a linear story (like Final Fantasy). Yes, I'd consider Diablo to be an RPG, as well. (haven't tried mass effect). All these games use the player-character's statistics to determine one's ability to deal with a situation (minus some problem solving at the player level).

But they are certainly doing this^ to a lesser extent than Fallout.

Final Fantasy, Lunar, and Diablo all have a relatively strong narrative related to the characters a player is ... well playing. Fallout's is able to be influenced slightly by the player character, but still exists, none the less.

Why Mario isn't an RPG is because stats don't matter in Mario, the narrative is almost so lacking that it doesn't even exist. The same with games like Frogger, Pac-Man, and such.

To defend my definition: RPGs require that narrative, be it linear or dynamic, to set them apart from arcade games. They need the stats to set them apart from FPSs and adventure games.

It's all horribly subjective, though.

 

[DraQ]

You don't need a completely open dialog system, you can still role-play with a few reasonable choices for each situation.

There is a problem with that, as it may mean generic dialogue. I'm not saying that it's bad, but for some applications it WILL be lacking.

 

[mondblut]

Final Fantasy, Lunar, and Diablo all have a relatively strong narrative related to the characters a player is ... well playing.

And Diablo's narrative is stronger than Mario's how?

To defend my definition: RPGs require that narrative, be it linear or dynamic, to set them apart from arcade games. They need the stats to set them apart from FPSs and adventure games.

RPGs don't have shit to do with narratives. Roguelikes and oldschool dungeon crawlers point at you and laugh.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

And Diablo's narrative is stronger than Mario's how?

RPGs don't have shit to do with narratives. Roguelikes and oldschool dungeon crawlers point at you and laugh.

Ah, hell. Going from memory? It's "Enter the depths of hell, remove the taint." Kill the butcher. Go back and kill the skeleton king. Go back and purify the water source. Go back and confrot the devil. etc, other plots from Cain, Griswald, and ThatWitch, and Wart. There's a bunch of other stuff thrown in then just "Go, conquar" Though I may be using the word narrative wrong. And considering my description of Diablo's, I am not confident.

Which is funny, as I don't consider dungeon crawlers or roguelikes to be RPGs, unless they have a decent story-component. But hell, I'd label X-Com a dungeon crawler (in the tactical sense) to some extent (as opposed to an RPG), if that invalidates my opinion even further.

 

[mondblut]

Which is funny, as I don't consider dungeon crawlers or roguelikes to be RPGs, unless they have a decent story-component.

You have much to learn then.

 

[Mastermind]

An RPG is a game with stats and at least some amount of dungeon crawling/combat.

Sounds like Hexen.

 

[Dorf]

I never felt like Diablo was a CRPG, and if it is then a its a very weak one. Most of the Roleplaying you do in your head because the story plays out he same really no matter what you do. System Shock 2 has a lot in common with Diablo, but atleast with SS2 depending on how you tailor your character you solve puzzles in the game differently.

So the differences are subtle. If CRPGs could be rated on a sliding scale that is 10 being total CRPG and 0 being not a CRPG at all then SS2 scores a little higher than Diablo.

I really think that is the way we should approach it.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

If CRPGs could be rated on a sliding scale that is 10 being total CRPG and 0 being not a CRPG at all then SS2 scores a little higher than Diablo.

Dorf, if you turn out to be an attractive female, I'll hug you for that. *Equips cloak of stalking*
...But no, you are clearly a troll playing on my delicate sensibilities.

 

[Melcar]

Oh, this discussion again.

 

[DraQ]

I never felt like Diablo was a CRPG, and if it is then a its a very weak one. Most of the Roleplaying you do in your head because the story plays out he same really no matter what you do. System Shock 2 has a lot in common with Diablo, but atleast with SS2 depending on how you tailor your character you solve puzzles in the game differently.

So the differences are subtle. If CRPGs could be rated on a sliding scale that is 10 being total CRPG and 0 being not a CRPG at all then SS2 scores a little higher than Diablo.

I really think that is the way we should approach it.

There is also the fact that there is one opportunity when you get to exercise some will of your own in SS2.

Apart from that, neither has mechanics influencing the story.

 

[Dorf]

If CRPGs could be rated on a sliding scale that is 10 being total CRPG and 0 being not a CRPG at all then SS2 scores a little higher than Diablo.

Dorf, if you turn out to be an attractive female, I'll hug you for that. *Equips cloak of stalking*
...But no, you are clearly a troll playing on my delicate sensibilities.

Alas since I do not play MMOGs I do not pretend to be a female let alone an attractive one. They are myth IMO and no amount of pictures with hot girls scantilly clad in front of PCs lovingly clutching a mouse will change my mind. They are all frauds.

(Disclaimer: I did play a lot of Darkwind in 2009 but you can't really pretend to be a female car, not that I would try anyway.)

 

[7hm]

Which is funny, as I don't consider dungeon crawlers or roguelikes to be RPGs, unless they have a decent story-component. But hell, I'd label X-Com a dungeon crawler (in the tactical sense) to some extent (as opposed to an RPG), if that invalidates my opinion even further.

There are so many things wrong with this paragraph.

It does invalidate your opinion.

That said... stats (and combat!) are fine as prereqs for an RPG. A narrative is also a fine prereq as long as you accept that the narrative of "you need to bring the amulet of Yendor back from dungeon level 27" with no further storyline development is enough. Which makes pretty well every dungeon crawler and roguelike ever made an RPG by your own definition.

 

[OminousBlueDot]

A narrative is also a fine prereq as long as you accept that the narrative of "you need to bring the amulet of Yendor back from dungeon level 27" with no further storyline development is enough. Which makes pretty well every dungeon crawler and roguelike ever made an RPG by your own definition.

Hence why I refuse to accept most dungeon crawlers/roguelikes as RPGs for their very lack of over-all plot.

To EVEN further invalidate my opinion, Diablo at least had some plot progression beyond "bring the amulet of Yendor back from dungeon level 27" ... Just ... slightly ... kinda more.

I am part of the decline. I know this now.

 

[deus101]

A narrative is also a fine prereq as long as you accept that the narrative of "you need to bring the amulet of Yendor back from dungeon level 27" with no further storyline development is enough. Which makes pretty well every dungeon crawler and roguelike ever made an RPG by your own definition.

Hence why I refuse to accept most dungeon crawlers/roguelikes as RPGs for their very lack of over-all plot.

To EVEN further invalidate my opinion, Diablo at least had some plot progression beyond "bring the amulet of Yendor back from dungeon level 27" ... Just ... slightly ... kinda more.

I am part of the decline. I know this now.

Hence..what you are looking for is NOT rpg's, go the the social forum and say you are an FPS gamer that enjoys a good story...

MAKE THEM REALISE!

 

[SuperNintendo Chalmers]

Roleplaying game. A game in which you assume a role and play it out.

Why must there be a hundred different definitions for this? When I was 10, I saw the first "Die Hard," and for two weeks after that, I wandered around my house, gunning down imaginary Germans and muttering "Yippee-kay-yayy, motherfucker," under my breath. I was pretending to be John McClain, and, by definition, roleplaying. Stats didn't matter, a character avatar didn't matter, and the story didn't matter. It was just me shooting Germans.

Playing MUDs in the early 90's was pretty much the same thing. There were no visuals, and the only thing added from my days of running around my house with a plastic gun taped to my back was the fact that killing other "people" or things got me money and equipment. There was still no avatar, and no real stats, the money and gear just allowed me to buy better spells, or software, or a bigger club. It was still roleplaying, just amorphous and never ending.

Fast forward to today, and roleplaying still consists of basically those things to me. I like sitting at a table, with a character sheet, wandering through dungeons and beating things up, with no apparent goal other than getting the next better sword. I also like taking the part of a pre-made character and going through a story, seeing if what I choose to do has an effect on the world around me. I could care less if I get to choose the name, or how I look, or if / how the story ends. I only care about whether or not it's fun.

The author of this article is a fanboy fucktard, who likes to tell the masses that the games they love to play are shit, that they don't stay true to the "oldschool" cRPGs. The truth is, this dude is going to play EVERY SINGLE RPG THAT COMES OUT THIS YEAR, and he's probably going to enjoy 90-99% of them. But just like the indie-rock, French-press-coffee-drinking, scarf-in-the-middle-of-fuckin-August nitwit, he will NEVER admit that he likes all the games. He is a scholar, a connoseur, with taste and discretion, not like the masses of plebians he's forced to come into contact with every day on the internets. He's angry, argumentative, self-righteous and pedantic.

But I'm still John-fucking-McClain.

 

[DraQ]

Roleplaying game. A game in which you assume a role and play it out.

Why must there be a hundred different definitions for this?

Because your definition encompasses about all computer games ever created, which renders it completely redundant and meaningless.