A return to dungeon design - what do you want to see in it?

[Murk]

I personally hate cave style dungeons that just house a random number of enemies with some loot thrown around. I like the dungeon to have a purpose, even if that purpose is entirely fluff and serves nothing other than giving you scraps of text or writings on the walls to read.

Reading over past threads about dungeon design it seems that most of the older posters wanted enemy fortresses/habitats more than they wanted actual dungeons - which is fine, since use of the word 'dungeon' mostly comes from old games/d&d modules that revolved around pits full of monsters.

So now, dear Kodicks, I ask you -- what would your dream dungeon in a cRPG (or hell, one you made for P&P) look like?

Is there any specific setting, ruleset, or game they would involve?

Perhaps your ideal dream-dungeon was tailor made for Fallout or M&M 6, or whatever.

Do you think Dungeons should try to be involved in the main plot of the game in some way -- even if only in flavor lore like in Arcanum (Kerghan's lab, the ruined temple of the Derian Ka, etc.) or should some just be completely standalone and have nothing to do with the rest of the game?

Does either type (related or unrelated) have any particular nuances or features you think are exclusive to and work out better for it?

Do you like having puzzles, riddles, or situations that require the player (not the character, but the player) to think out before proceeding?

Contrarily, do you believe dungeons should heavily draw on your characters' mental and physical facilities to the point of heavily limiting what character type can even traverse the dungeon question?

Should there be a BBEG?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The Glow is probably my favourite dungeon, ever.

I want my dungeons to have great atmosphere, mysteries, story, and opportunities to use skills. They doesn't have to be inhabited, but if they do, I want it to have sense.

 

[Damned Registrations]

My favourite kind are utterly massive. Dungeons that encompass the entire game, as in a roguelike, are the best kind. Obviously adding lore and purpose to them is always good as well. My favourite would be the setting of BoF5; the entire game takes place in a massive underground shelter where people have been living for a long time after the world basically ended. Large portions have fallen into disrepair, and in general, the closer you get to the surface, the more well kept everything is. You start off near the bottom, which is heavily polluted and industrialized. As you progress thing gradually become better looked after, but ultimately the whole thing is still a giant apocalypse shelter, so if you're not in a living area you're in some sort of lab, factory, or maintenance area or the like anyways. You never know exactly when you'll next find a living area or even place to rest, so it lends itself very well to an atmosphere of tension. The fact that you can't simply escape the dungeon (escaping it is, in fact, the entire plot point the game revolves around) and rest up or travel around the world is awesome.

The labyrinth in Shining in the Darkness was good as well. There's no real reason for it existing other than some retarded 'test for heroes' crap, but the fact that you'd be 4 floors deep in some far wing of the dungeon and a boss could jump you at the very next corner meant you were always on your toes and wondering if you should press your luck looking for more treasure or head back to recover and resupply. Once of the most brilliant aspects of that game (early spoiler) is that the first boss you fight, a massive crab, just pops around a corner as you approach with no warning at all. Forever after you know that it could happen again at any corner, any treasure chest or door, or even just in the middle of a hallway. You never feel safe while in new territory.

When you can rest anywhere in a dungeon or just exit and resume your search trivially, it misses the entire point. Having foreknowledge of major enemy encounters fucks it up too. If you know the boss is ahead because of the giant golden doors (Or worse yet, a 4th wall breaking warning or savepoint right there) then there can never be any suspense while exploring- you know you'll fight nothing but mooks until you CHOOSE to fight the boss fully prepared.

 

[Murk]

This may be because I am simply tired of the convention - but I often prefer no BBEG in an area unless the very nature of the place demands it. Fighting a big bad Necromancer in a blackened wizard's tower makes sense... but going through a cave to eventually come across some kind of uber Varg at the end doesn't - I get it, alpha male of the pack - but why is it SO much more powerful? If anything it should just be a level or two above the others or have minor statistical differences.

The type I would personally make would be abandoned ruins of some kind, not too disimilar to the Glow or Severed Hand, but have few enemies. The place should be, in my opinion, primarily a hidden pocket of forgotten architecture that some sentient or primitive beings have found as shelter and live in it - perhaps at harmony or perhaps at odds, but they are wary and/or hostile of intrusion by outside forces.

You could, theoretically, kill them all and explore the ruins to your leisure but it would come at a cost.

Example of minor places of itnerest you come across: Old man made ruins of some kind (technological, religious, or maybe just an old timey bandit hold) that is abandoned and inhabited by random hobos, orcish family/tribe, a wandering ogre, rebels, or the last remnants of Doom Sayers of Banality -- note the 'or', that is that you pick one group/inhabitant type and not the others.

The relevance of this to the main plot is, in some cases very strong, while in others it is just a place you found like the occasional tombs in the Gothic games that just have some neat stuff and possibly loot.

Possible combinations:

The ogre was too stupid to make use of the knobs and levers and so there is a larger network of rooms that are unexplored, and save for the stench of death, it holds no real threat but requires a skilled and/or intelligent character to properly utilize the peculiar valves and levers. Sneak past him, kill him, bribe him (hope you have his favourite kind of meat on you!), or trick him - what skills have you got?

The Orcs are are a superstitious lot and have seen the carvings on the doors, and are afraid of entering. They sometimes hear noises from within the main chambers and have tried to appease the sounds by offering sacrifices of animals and whatever valuables they come across. They have thought about moving but the area is too good in terms of wildlife, seclusion, and climate - it is safe but the ever growing fear of what is behind the gates with the strange symbols is starting to make their skin crawl. Tho they are almost certain there couldn't be anything inside - the place is entirely covered in rust and nothing can live that long... right? They are scared but easily aggravated and, if approached correctly (Orcish caracher, Orchis insignia equipped, smoothe talker type, Priest of either well known good god and/or orc-friendly god, etc) they will beseech help and offer to help you fight the evils within - if approached incorrectly, they may snap and attack.

The hobo(s) is somewhat unbalanced and has been living in this large system of interconnected all metal rooms with strange doors that have turning wheels for handles. He or they have, over time, learned what some of the technology there does and realize much of it is very dangerous. If you make peace with them with either bribes, food, or smoothe talking they will help you with information on how to access the technology within - most of the place is filled with skill checks, traps, and strange mechanisms that, if used properly (high int, high tech skill, previous knowledge of) can result in obtaining long forgotten items and equipment - or if misused they may result in possibly major damage, permanent stat changes, and even death.

The rebels have been hiding out in this long abandoned mine shaft that is nearly completely grown over with vegetation and are not too happy that you have intruded in. They now demand that you either prove your loyalty to their cause and trustworthiness or that you die. If you had previous ties with the resistance they will recognize the red armband and offer you lodging, supplies, and help as well as quests and a place to use as a midway point for your journeys - in time, they may even help you on your quests. If you are a loyalist to the crown/regime then they will try to kill you to keep their secret - incidentally, if you don't get caught by them perhaps you can turn them in?

The doom sayers have been waiting for their final days to end in the temple of their dying god, and they welcome you to their temple as a traveller. The offer you sustenance and a place to rest but something is amiss... as you join their sermons and lectures you soon find your very will fading and overtime you no longer wish to continue your journeys. overtime you find your breathing slowing and your blood growing cold, better pull out that willsave or find a reason to continue living because you just may embrace that inevitable death sooner than you thought (staying turns you into an unliving [undead but not usual zombie/vampire fare] doom sayer and you now have a faction that you must support lest your god strike you down (major physical limitations followed by final death)).

 

[denizsi]

If the dungeon in question is inhabited by intelligent beings, then exploring/fighting your way for a while and then retreating to heal/resupply should introduce elements like the inhabitants preparing for your return, setting traps, ambushes, even abandoning after burning half the place down or to return later with more crowds, would be very refreshing.

And if you're resting/resupplying in the dungeon or some place not too far from it, that alone should be an invitation to get raped.

In a story driven game with a strong narrative, dungeons that are simply too huge to explore completely for exploration's sake and is a sensible place to walk if only you're there for a particular reason and will zip in and out as soon as you can find whatever you're looking for, could be nice. Whenever you're down there to find something or someone, have found it and leaving, you'll think that the place will continue to exist, hosting far more yet to be found.

Like a sunken city with all kinds of vile scum. Too large to ever explore and too dangerous to explore at all but if you keep walking, you will always find more about the place, stories within stories from the past mingled with the present, but it's in your best interest that you shouldn't.

 

[Murk]

^ I like the idea of dungeons that are just too big for your puny little adventuring self to deal with in its entirety.

An idea i had was to come across an abandoned underground facility that obviously reaks of some kind of medical, chemical, or biological installment. Access to it is by elevator only and you find a working lift, kind of... but it requires a power source. If you are technically gifted and/or intelligent enough you can deduce how to recreate a power source using the dead energy cells/batteries/engine parts as a basis - otherwise you must find someone in game who is capable of such. Rumors speak that the chief Civil Engineer is a master artificier in the southern Union of Allied Kingdoms, perhaps he can help - good luck getting an audience with someone THAT important tho!

Eventually you get a powered cell/part/whatever and plug it in and the lift starts to move - as you go down you realize it is losing its momentum as it takes you and may stop working any time and you must make a choice - which of the X amount of levels do you want to go down to? Luckily the place had a diagram with each level telling you what it is - and you weren't dumb enough to not leave a long rope/chain ladder from the entrance of the lift to unroll as you go down.

You basically pick which floor you want to go to and are stuck there as the other floors remained sealed by giant blast doors that will only open if the lift locks into place - and you can't move the lift again as it breaks after reaching its destination.

Congrats, you just sacrificed a part of the dungeon for another - hope you made the right choice!

The idea was to have ridiculous old technology and horrors in each level and depending on what you windup with you may get amazing equipment, ridiculous stat boosters, access to long forgotten healing/medicinal technology, or uncover disgusting secrets that question just how inhuman the advanced old civilizations really were.

The horror I had in question was to find vats that are sealed off with living creatures in them that were made as experiments in immortal humanoids - unfortunately for however many years now (call it 500? or maybe 5,000?) they have been encased in these vats and shackled to be unable to move. For effectively however many years you choose these strange mutant creators have been alive and unable to move out of these giant metal cylinders - in fact they haven't even been able to see anything, all they've felt is the series of long since dried up tubes in their veins and their thoughts. Their intelligence is unkown but if you try to release them there is the possibility of them completely freaking out for having no clue what the hell just happened. Their existence uptil now has been the effectively matured imagination of a superhuman mutant INFANT that has no experience of ANYTHING other than the stuff that was being injected in them.

 

[Phelot]

This is cool stuff! I got one I think would be fun.

The player comes across/ hears about a cave used by a powerful bandit gang of no less then around 30 or so individuals. They aren't completely unreceptive and in fact could use the help of an outsider. It turns out that they've gotten reports of seeing their bandits in two places at once and suspect some sort of magic or shapeshifting is going on. Since you are new, they assume that you would not be a shapeshifter since so far they haven't seen any other strangers. They ask you to try and root out what is going on. If you take too long, or if the other bandits start to suspect you are a shapeshifter (or if they see you in two places at once) then they'll attack you and possibly trigger the shapeshifters to start attempting to kill off their originals, so you'd have a chaotic situation filled with small skirmishes.

 

[JarlFrank]

Re: A return to dungeon design - what do you want to see in

Is there any specific setting, ruleset, or game they would involve?

Not really. Any setting goes - I personally have a hardon for steampunk fantasy like Arcanum, or for scifi-fantasy mixes, but anything goes. Every setting has the potential for awesome dungeons, be it scifi, post-apoc, traditional fantasy or something more unique like Planescape.

Perhaps your ideal dream-dungeon was tailor made for Fallout or M&M 6, or whatever.

Wizardry 8's monastery was fucking awesome. Great design with many different rooms and paths, some puzzles, dangerous encounters, the history of the place partly explained in books... one of my favourite dungeons ever.

Do you think Dungeons should try to be involved in the main plot of the game in some way -- even if only in flavor lore like in Arcanum (Kerghan's lab, the ruined temple of the Derian Ka, etc.) or should some just be completely standalone and have nothing to do with the rest of the game?

They do not necessarily have to be involved in the mainquest, but I like my dungeons to have a detailed background in the lore. There was some guy in Morrowind who told you of an old Nord king who was buried in a dungeon on his ship, and that dungeon was quite large and hard to find, and it was awesome. It didn't have any connection to the mainquest, but it had a story behind it and a reason to exist.

Does either type (related or unrelated) have any particular nuances or features you think are exclusive to and work out better for it?

Nah. It doesn't matter much whether the dungeon is related to the mainquest or not, design-wise. Just make it an interesting place filled with good encounters, branching paths to explore and background lore. The main difference of mainquest-related dungeons and non-mainquest-related dungeons is the visual design and background story of the dungeon. Kerghan's lab will obviously look different and have a different history than the Iron Clan's cave.

Do you like having puzzles, riddles, or situations that require the player (not the character, but the player) to think out before proceeding?

Absolutely. I like sphinx-like riddles, or riddles that let me open a secret door that leads to treasure/interesting lore. What I'd love to see in RPGs would be adventure-game riddles that involve item combination and usage, especially within dungeons. Having to figure out how to get across that chasm with whatever you have in your inventory/can find in the dungeon is fun.

Contrarily, do you believe dungeons should heavily draw on your characters' mental and physical facilities to the point of heavily limiting what character type can even traverse the dungeon question?

I'm actually not as much a fan of purely stat-based gameplay as other Codexers, but sure, why not. Personally, I'd love a dungeon that has traps and areas that can be traversed by almost every character type in a different way. Bash in the door if you're strong, decipher a password on the wall in an ancient language if you have high wisdom, lockpick the door if you're a dexterous thief etc etc. Providing different paths through the dungeon based on character stats is good RPG design.

Should there be a BBEG?

What's a BBEG? Big Bad End... uhm... Gegner?
If you're talking about a boss creature at the end of the dungeon - that depends, really. It's cool to find a strong "boss" enemy at the end of the dungeon if it makes sense. If you can read notes by the inhabitants of a bandit cave that they hear some frightening growls from deep within the dungeon, and then you find a fearsome demon down there, that's cool. If they just add a more-powerful-than-the-other-enemies guy at the end of the dungeon just because it's the cool thing to do, without any explanation why he's stronger and why he's down there... meh. Give it a good background, and make the fight challenging.

Ra-Sep-Re-Tep of Wizardry VII is an awesome example of a boss creature done well.

 

[DraQ]

Primarily sense.

Though dungeons too big (in one way or another) for player's 1-6men army to explore/clean in their entirety sound awesome.

 

[zenbitz]

1) It should have a story, a reason for being there (not just "XP + loot")

2) It should have an ecology - that is, what does everything in there eat (assuming that intrepid adventurers are too rare to be anything more than a delicacy)

 

[Murk]

Primarily sense.

Though dungeons too big (in one way or another) for player's 1-6men army to explore/clean in their entirety sound awesome.

This is something I really like - but I get the feeling it may drive completionist gamerists to insanity. This may be because I was bred on shitty dungeon design on jRPGs in my preteen years but I would purposely look for the "wrong" path to take, as I called it, because I knew that the "wrong" path would lead to a dead end with a treasure chest instead of the final boss or exit.

However, if the game didn't just offer two branches you can take at any point, but actually made you pick one and seal off the other, I think you would both be granted a feeling that - holy shit you just made a real choice and cannot simply backtrack - and that you no longer have to worry about that sealed off area.

The lift example not withstanding - you go deeper into the mining caverns and come across a branching Y-fork in the tunnels, on the left you see a group of miners with chunks of their flesh ripped out, on the right you see a were-rat with bloody claws. Fight ensues, yatta yatta, you find a roll of dynamite on one of the miners and can use it to clear the path of only ONE of the tunnel's branches. Which do you pick? On the left where the miners seem to have been going or on the right where the were-rat seemed more comfortable standing? Or maybe their position had fuck all to do with anything and they were shuffled around during a fight.

That makes me go "oh shit... I need to think about this"

 

[LusciousPear]

The Glow is probably my favourite dungeon, ever.

I want my dungeons to have great atmosphere, mysteries, story, and opportunities to use skills. They doesn't have to be inhabited, but if they do, I want it to have sense.

+1. Dungeons need to add something to the story, or they're hella boring.

 

[Metro]

The original Pool of Radiance (first Gold Box game) actually did this quite well (within the constraints of the engine). Other than the block clearing main quest (which was pretty cool because each block had its own unique backstory/locale) it probably had the most side/optional dungeons in any Gold Box game made afterwards.

All they need is to tell a story that's a small part of the world your game is set in -- it could be some hideout in the sewers of a notorious thieves ring or a cave housing a hidden mercenary army and supplies raised by political insiders to oust a sitting king/government.

Additionally the loot should be varied and unique to the location. For example the cave with the mercenaries would yield coins from another realm/kingdom which you'd have to exchange somewhere or documents of some such incriminating members of the nobility that you can use in a variety of ways. A dragon's lair might yield some long lost art relic a merchant would pay handsomely for, etc. A lot of games are too quick to gloss over loot in the form of one basic coin and some standard weapons and armor. Not everyone/thing goes around carrying the standard coin of the realm and not every piece of armor is going to fit or be made of the same quality material.

If you haven't had the chance to play it I highly recommend it as it is probably the only Gold Box game that made the overworld feel alive and not just a map to get from point A to point B.

 

[DraQ]

Primarily sense.

Though dungeons too big (in one way or another) for player's 1-6men army to explore/clean in their entirety sound awesome.

This is something I really like - but I get the feeling it may drive completionist gamerists to insanity.

Good.

This may be because I was bred on shitty dungeon design on jRPGs in my preteen years but I would purposely look for the "wrong" path to take, as I called it, because I knew that the "wrong" path would lead to a dead end with a treasure chest instead of the final boss or exit.

However, if the game didn't just offer two branches you can take at any point, but actually made you pick one and seal off the other, I think you would both be granted a feeling that - holy shit you just made a real choice and cannot simply backtrack - and that you no longer have to worry about that sealed off area.

The lift example not withstanding - you go deeper into the mining caverns and come across a branching Y-fork in the tunnels, on the left you see a group of miners with chunks of their flesh ripped out, on the right you see a were-rat with bloody claws. Fight ensues, yatta yatta, you find a roll of dynamite on one of the miners and can use it to clear the path of only ONE of the tunnel's branches. Which do you pick? On the left where the miners seem to have been going or on the right where the were-rat seemed more comfortable standing? Or maybe their position had fuck all to do with anything and they were shuffled around during a fight.

That makes me go "oh shit... I need to think about this"

Yes,
though I'm also interested in "merely" making the player's genocide squad less of a genocide squad and more of an adventuring party.

Being able to methodically and exhaustingly PWN your way through the dungeon doesn't exactly help us here.

 

[Big Nose George]

Sometimes I want everything mentioned.
Sometimes not.
Sometimes I avoid dungeons whenever I can.

Severed Hand in IWD was nice. I think you could not rest in the tower.

 

[J1M]

Most of these suggestions here are story based excuses for dungeons, with an overwhelming preference for abandoned structures.

I think the discussion would be best served by switching to more discussion of actual design and gameplay of a dungeon irrespective of the tileset that it is constructed out of.

A good example of amazing dungeon design imo is Blood Omen 1. All of the mini dungeons have the following structure:
-Enter and traverse an area that is somewhat difficult with current toolset
-Acquire a new spell/item that is very useful for what you just faced
-Traverse a different path out of the dungeon that is designed to teach and show you situations that the new spell/item excels at. In essence, a tutorial without popups or hand-holding.

Finally, these can be largely completed in any order. Unlike most Zelda dungeons.

 

[DraQ]

Most of these suggestions here are story based excuses for dungeons, with an overwhelming preference for abandoned structures.

I think the discussion would be best served by switching to more discussion of actual design and gameplay of a dungeon irrespective of the tileset that it is constructed out of.

A thing that should not be.

All of the mini dungeons have the following structure

Isn't that a recipe for repetitive, schematic, banal, shit, boring?

 

[J1M]

Most of these suggestions here are story based excuses for dungeons, with an overwhelming preference for abandoned structures.

I think the discussion would be best served by switching to more discussion of actual design and gameplay of a dungeon irrespective of the tileset that it is constructed out of.

A thing that should not be.

All of the mini dungeons have the following structure

Isn't that a recipe for repetitive, schematic, banal, shit, boring?

Well, the game has been out for over a decade. Why don't you play it?

The entire game is not comprised of these dungeons. They are mostly-optional ways of getting new abilities and receive a good dose of narration and story "flavor text" so they fit in the world. There are also story related areas and larger dungeons/castles/etc.

Your comment about tileset superseding gameplay is nonsensical. Obviously, you don't throw a dank rocky cave inside a spaceship. But solid dungeon design is largely transferable to any genre or setting. Changing the magic key to an electronic keycard isn't going to turn fun gameplay into Space Siege.

 

[Murk]

^ The dungeons weren't all that repetitive because there were not that many, they were not that long, and often involved you getting a shiny new toy you know you're going to use.

The way the tools in question were used were also unsimilar to one another.

Also the game was incredibly atmospheric, had great style, and it was just plain fun to romp through them.

J1M the way you described that seems fine given the game it is made for - a top down hack'n'slash with adventure elements, but for a conventional cRPG (be it real time or turn based) I would say a skill, stat, character build, and plot based dungeon makes more sense.

You'll notice all the ones I described often revolved necessary use of your characters abilities other than "smash".

 

[J1M]

^ The dungeons weren't all that repetitive because there were not that many, they were not that long, and often involved you getting a shiny new toy you know you're going to use.

The way the tools in question were used were also unsimilar to one another.

Also the game was incredibly atmospheric, had great style, and it was just plain fun to romp through them.

J1M the way you described that seems fine given the game it is made for - a top down hack'n'slash with adventure elements, but for a conventional cRPG (be it real time or turn based) I would say a skill, stat, character build, and plot based dungeon makes more sense.

You'll notice all the ones I described often revolved necessary use of your characters abilities other than "smash".

Thanks Mikayel. A dungeon can still be designed to be easier if using the right tools. In the case of a conventional RPG you often have a party with a diverse skillset. Rather than giving the main character an item that does something new and a challeng befitting it, the dungeon could be tailored around using a certain character class or party member.

Use of multiple characters usually devolves into pathetic 'puzzles' like having one person step on a switch to open a door for the other. But that doesn't have to be the case.

I guess my point is that there really isn't a difference between real-time, turn-based, solo, and party dungeon design. Very similar effects can be created by using the environment and temporarily limiting the player to an interesting (possibly themed) subset of their abilities.

In older games this was often achieved by having monsters immune to certain damage types. Mass Effect 2 has an interesting level where you take damage when not in the shade. (It's not even that great of a level it's just nice to have a new parameter to consider when advancing.) The idea isn't to stump the player. It is to change the type of stimulus they are getting to prevent things from becoming repetitive and boring. Force them to tackle familiar obstacles in unfamiliar ways.

It doesn't matter how much lore is scrawled on the walls of a cave or how many dozen different monsters are in it if the player dispatches all of them in the same manner.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Generally gameplay is more important than plot or realism, so I'm fine with all the old standbys in unambitious but fun games, however it really shows how disappointing this hobby is when you face a dungeon full of intelligent humanoids and they just sit in each room waiting for you to enter it, trigger the encounter and slaughter them.

Just once before I die I'd like to see a situation where I break into a fortress of intelligent humanoids and they react like intelligent humanoids.

Using the terrain to their advantage, calling in reinforcements from all over the level, sniping from behind barricades and running, setting up ambushes for me, having the last few guys retreat further into the dungeon to link up with other elements of their unit instead of just suiciding, etc.

It wouldn't really take a revolutionary AI, just a decent AI and some effort on scripting. Even if you don't want to put in the effort to actually do it for real with scripting and AI, you can certainly fake it easily enough just through encounter design and text, to make it seem like the enemy is reacting to your incursion, despite the encounters actually being static.

 

[Murk]

^ sounds like a pretty typical encounter in a dungeon if you play tabletop games...

Some games have incorporated enemies "calling" for help - ToEE had that quite a bit where a wounded enemy would flee into a nearby room with a squad standing and trigger them into combat.

Though reacting is really more of an emergent thing. It would require proper AI I think and while I'm definitely not sure how difficult that is to implement I imagine it is much more difficult than "see enemy, attack"

 

[MetalCraze]

RoA dungeons are teh best dungeons

Puzzles, encounters (random and not so), good loot if you are lucky and use your brain, various actions that require certain skills of your party members, design that is more than just a bunch of corridors, etc

Of course dungeons aren't neccesary 'dungeons' in RoA (and not only in RoA) but rather maze-like environments. Like temples or mines, layout of which makes sense unlike in certain recent shit games

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Generally gameplay is more important than plot or realism, so I'm fine with all the old standbys in unambitious but fun games, however it really shows how disappointing this hobby is when you face a dungeon full of intelligent humanoids and they just sit in each room waiting for you to enter it, trigger the encounter and slaughter them.

Just once before I die I'd like to see a situation where I break into a fortress of intelligent humanoids and they react like intelligent humanoids.

Using the terrain to their advantage, calling in reinforcements from all over the level, sniping from behind barricades and running, setting up ambushes for me, having the last few guys retreat further into the dungeon to link up with other elements of their unit instead of just suiciding, etc.

It wouldn't really take a revolutionary AI, just a decent AI and some effort on scripting. Even if you don't want to put in the effort to actually do it for real with scripting and AI, you can certainly fake it easily enough just through encounter design and text, to make it seem like the enemy is reacting to your incursion, despite the encounters actually being static.

Such AI would probably slaughter the player's party. I think that the main reason why things are like they are is that the developers want the players get satisfaction from slaughtering the whole dungeon, not because they are incompetent.
The only way to make the dungeons sensible is to get rid of the whole trope of small groups of semi-invincible adventurers that fix the world by cleaning out dungeons.

 

[DraQ]

I don't have to doubt that BO was a good and atmospheric game to see that abstract dungeons with tileset as window dressing have infinitely less potential to dungeons with sense of purpose, layout, encounters, puzzles and all the specific properties tailored to what they are meant to be.

Such AI would probably slaughter the player's party.

Awesome!

Also, Tucker's Cobolds.

I think that the main reason why things are like they are is that the developers want the players get satisfaction from slaughtering the whole dungeon, not because they are incompetent.

That's the root of the decline then.

The only way to make the dungeons sensible is to get rid of the whole trope of small groups of semi-invincible adventurers that fix the world by cleaning out dungeons.

Do want.