Interview Chris Avellone Interview Roundup

[Fat Dragon]

Has their been any info or leaks on what that secret game Chris mentioned could be? Hopefully something brand new and not another sequel or licensed game.

 

[Lancehead]

That's not different from what happens in AP; you can still choose to go against or for what you learn from the dossiers, and npcs react accordingly. You may want to go against because you want to rile up the npc, for example.

Moreover a lot of the dossiers are acquired through hacking/lockpicking/whatever which are character skills that the player chooses. Granted, one doesn't need to have invested in said skills to access the information, but the skills are there partly to equip the character for information access.

Learning the information of a dossier basically requires no player agency. Either you read the thing or you don't. The scanner thing means there is *gameplay* in learning what the dossier would say. It's interactive and thus has player agency.

I'm not sure we're on the same page as to what "player agency" is. It's the player's capacity to do something that has an effect in the game. The act of learning from a dossier has nothing to do with player agency, but whether the information learned can be used in meaningful ways has. And in AP it can be, much the same way information learned through the scanner in DE:HR can be used to effect different outcomes.

That's the whole idea of systemizing something. You create an abstraction which can then be manipulated. People don't have HP as depicted in games either, it's an abstraction.

Uh, okay? RPG players don't really expect conversations to be systemized in that way, especially when the alternative (Alpha Protocol-style "the dev team thinks of everything" scripted conversations) has proven to be much more impressive.

Should I bring up the Oblivion persuasion system?

I would certainly like a good systemetised conversation system. Arcanum has a decent one with the inclusion of npc Reaction, but it lacked a generic speech skill. Morrowind's is not bad either except for how easily exploitable the use of Speechcraft can be.

 

[Infinitron]

I think you guys might be forgetting that AP had a visible influence value for every single character in the game, a value that persisted throughout the entire game. That alone, even without all the dossiers and cascading reactivity, was more interesting than DX:HR's per-conversation happiness level.

it lacked a generic speech skill.

Good!

 

[tuluse]

Uh, okay? RPG players don't really expect conversations to be systemized in that way, especially when the alternative (Alpha Protocol-style "the dev team thinks of everything" scripted conversations) has proven to be much more impressive.

I was very impressed with HR's system. Less impressed with their content.

I think if you combined it with Obsidian's indirect reaction system and Avellone's writing, it would be really good.

Should I bring up the Oblivion persuasion system?

I thought of this, Fable too also has an awful abstract system. I don't know what to say other than some systems are good and some are bad. HR's was good.

 

[tuluse]

I would certainly like a good systemetised conversation system. Arcanum has a decent one with the inclusion of npc Reaction, but it lacked a generic speech skill. Morrowind's is not bad either except for how easily exploitable the use of Speechcraft can be.

Not really because often reaction doesn't mean anything at all, and there is no systemized way to understand how to change the reaction. Which is the innovation that HR introduced.

 

[Infinitron]

I think if you combined it with Obsidian's indirect reaction system and Avellone's writing, it would be really good.

It was a persuasion minigame. It wouldn't even make sense to use it in conversations that aren't focused around persuading someone. DX:HR certainly didn't.

And by making it the primary method of persuading people, you make the "indirect reaction system" and other reactivity superfluous. Fuck all those, it's all about making sure I finish the conversation with my persuasion meter at X.

Again, there was nothing profound about DX:HR's "conversation battles". It was a pretty gimmick that was fun to look at because of the nice voice acting and motion capture, but it's not really a strong foundation for deeper content.

 

[tuluse]

It doesn't have to be used just for persuasion. You could have multiple meters, with different reactions depending on how filled each one was. Some could be mutually exclusive.

The cool part wasn't filling the persuasion meter, it was learning what you had to do to fill it.

 

[Lancehead]

I would certainly like a good systemetised conversation system. Arcanum has a decent one with the inclusion of npc Reaction, but it lacked a generic speech skill. Morrowind's is not bad either except for how easily exploitable the use of Speechcraft can be.

Not really because often reaction doesn't mean anything at all,

Low Reaction can mean npcs refuse to talk to you, give quests, barter, or rent room at inns.

and there is no systemized way to understand how to change the reaction.

The BE stat, some of the character Backgrounds, or simply bartering.

I wouldn't call Arcanum any more than bare bones when it comes to how systemic its conversation system is, but npc Reaction is a good starting point.

 

[Infinitron]

It doesn't have to be used just for persuasion. You could have multiple meters, with different reactions depending on how filled each one was. Some could be mutually exclusive.

OK, this isn't DX:HR. You're describing something that doesn't exist.

The cool part wasn't filling the persuasion meter, it was learning what you had to do to fill it.

So basically your beef with Alpha Protocol is that the dossiers didn't make it 110% obvious what different characters wanted you to say to them to fill up their behind-the-scenes conversation meter(s)? Uh, okay.

Again, I don't know about you, but I for one don't seek dialogue in RPGs that is as predictable and "calculable" as combat. I don't need a persuasion meter that acts like the dialogue equivalent of hit points, or something like that. Non-systemized or lightly systemized adventure game dialogue is unpredictable and fun.

 

[tuluse]

OK, this isn't DX:HR. You're describing something that doesn't exist.



So basically your beef with Alpha Protocol is that the dossiers didn't make it 110% obvious what different characters wanted you to say to them to fill up their behind-the-scenes conversation meter(s)? Uh, okay.

Again, I don't know about you, but I for one don't seek dialogue in RPGs that is as predictable and "calculable" as combat. I don't need a persuasion meter that acts like the dialogue equivalent of hit points, or something like that. Non-systemized or lightly systemized adventure game dialogue is unpredictable and fun.

I don't have a beef with dossiers. I just think HR's interactive method of delivering information is a really good idea.

Haven't you ever played a game you do something and think to yourself "man, that was a really cool idea, I wish they took it futher?" That's the HR dialog system to me. The *idea* is really good. The implementation is average.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't have a beef with dossiers. I just think HR's interactive method of delivering information is a really good idea.

I get it, you want to have a bunch of onscreen influence meters that you can manipulate during dialogue with full knowledge.

Personally, I doubt RPG writers would want to submit to the constraints of that kind of "tactical dialogue" system. Dialogue isn't combat and the results probably wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Duraframe300]

Has their been any info or leaks on what that secret game Chris mentioned could be? Hopefully something brand new and not another sequel or licensed game.

Confirmed:

Next-Gen

Strongly hinted

- Cryengine 3
- modern(ish) setting

Hinted

- WB as publisher

 

[Lady_Error]

Dr. Who RPG? The Wire RPG?

 

[Azarkon]

Nothing about storytelling. Nothing about reactivity.

How the hell "NARRATIVE system" has nothing to do with storytelling?

The key word being "system". Ie, what Lancehead said.

Anyway, this is a pointless argument. Send MCA an email and ask him what he meant. He'll probably reply to you.

Provided you played both AP and ME, you know what he's talking about. They tried for the same sort of dialog wheel / in-game cinematic style. To do this, it isn't just about writing great lines / stories / characters. It isn't just about providing C&C. Ultimately, it's about getting down the timings, facial & body animations, camera angles, etc. AP's execution of the style was clunky; Bioware's was smooth and polished. Ignore the content and just look at the way it's presented and the difference is obvious.

AP was Obsidian being out of its comfort zone, which is old school text heavy games with minimal in-game cinematics.

 

[Kz3r0]

The Wire RPG?

 

[Lancehead]

Provided you played both AP and ME, you know what he's talking about. They tried for the same sort of dialog wheel / in-game cinematic style. To do this, it isn't just about writing great lines / stories / characters. It isn't just about providing C&C. Ultimately, it's about getting down the timings, facial & body animations, camera angles, etc. AP's execution of the style was clunky; Bioware's was smooth and polished. Ignore the content and just look at the way it's presented and the difference is obvious.

AP was Obsidian being out of its comfort zone, which is old school text heavy games with minimal in-game cinematics.

I consider AP better than ME even when it comes to presentation. The conversations in AP flowed smoothly because of the timer. Where BioWare showed the ass of Miranda as the characters looked at each other awkwardly while the player made a decision on a choice, AP simply picked a default choice if the timer ran out. Note that in AP most of the time the dialogue options appeared well before an npc finished speaking so as to give the player time to decide on a choice while keeping the flow of the conversation. I also find AP has better faces and facial animations.

 

[Duraframe300]

I also find AP has better faces and facial animations.

This. Sooooo much this. Especially Marburg and Leland were outstanding in that regard and their faces conveyed a lot more emotion than your typical Bioware flatface.

It helped that it had the same Lead Animator as Bloodlines. (Is also doing P:E by the way, though of course facial animations don't really play a role there).

 

[Hornawkawk]

I consider AP better than ME even when it comes to presentation. The conversations in AP flowed smoothly because of the timer. Where BioWare showed the ass of Miranda as the characters looked at each other awkwardly while the player made a decision on a choice, AP simply picked a default choice if the timer ran out. Note that in AP most of the time the dialogue options appeared well before an npc finished speaking so as to give the player time to decide on a choice while keeping the flow of the conversation.

The timer thing was justified in some cases (such as when you have to decide which files from a self-erasing flash drive you want to keep), but mostly it didn't make any sense whatsoever. Why should artificial time constraints be enforced on me when I'm asking a dude about mission objectives?

 

[Lancehead]

Because the game is aiming to be cinematic.

 

[commie]

I consider AP better than ME even when it comes to presentation. The conversations in AP flowed smoothly because of the timer. Where BioWare showed the ass of Miranda as the characters looked at each other awkwardly while the player made a decision on a choice, AP simply picked a default choice if the timer ran out. Note that in AP most of the time the dialogue options appeared well before an npc finished speaking so as to give the player time to decide on a choice while keeping the flow of the conversation.

The timer thing was justified in some cases (such as when you have to decide which files from a self-erasing flash drive you want to keep), but mostly it didn't make any sense whatsoever. Why should artificial time constraints be enforced on me when I'm asking a dude about mission objectives?

Actually most of the time it did make sense. Confronting some scumbag while under fire, it makes no sense to be able to sit calmly for 20 minutes weighing up choices about what to ask. I thought AP did that very well, and the lack of detail in the response choices, being just 'passive' or whatever, was both to fit in with the timer(if the whole reply was written, the player would barely get to the end of one before the timer ran out), and to more immediately fit into the 'character' that the player was creating where you could imagine Thornton making conversation on the fly, based more on emotion than calculated reasoning. Also imagine if someone asks you something and you take an age to reply. In reality the person would give up and dismiss you as some kind of retard. Even asking for mission objectives, those are written and given to you anyway in the PDA. The rest is just simulating a more naturally flowing conversation. Even in a spy agency you wouldn't sit like a mute between replies.

I understand that thinking quickly can be teh hard, but really....

 

[Roguey]

The timed dialogue was complete shit for ESL people who need to take additional time to comprehend English. Language privilege.

AP was Obsidian being out of its comfort zone, which is old school text heavy games with minimal in-game cinematics.

Obsidian is a lot more than just former Black Isle employees, especially AP which had its largest team ever. Josh Sawyer even said that the AP/Aliens period of Obsidian Entertainment made him uncomfortable because he could no longer know everybody. Also remember that their first release as Obsidian was a cinematic heavy Xbox game and their second was nicknamed "Neverwinter: The Movie" by Scorpia because of how cinematic-heavy it was.

I consider AP better than ME even when it comes to presentation. The conversations in AP flowed smoothly because of the timer. Where BioWare showed the ass of Miranda as the characters looked at each other awkwardly while the player made a decision on a choice, AP simply picked a default choice if the timer ran out. Note that in AP most of the time the dialogue options appeared well before an npc finished speaking so as to give the player time to decide on a choice while keeping the flow of the conversation. I also find AP has better faces and facial animations.

As I recall (I may be wrong?) the same thing applied to ME: you could select a choice before the NPC stopped speaking and it'd smoothly segue into your response. Having the option to take your time is better than not having it.

a lot more emotion than your typical Bioware flatface.

http://social.bioware.com/419394/blog/59615/

Has their been any info or leaks on what that secret game Chris mentioned could be? Hopefully something brand new and not another sequel or licensed game.

It makes no sense at all for them to create an original IP for a publisher.

 

[Azarkon]

Obsidian is a lot more than just former Black Isle employees, especially AP which had its largest team ever. Josh Sawyer even said that the AP/Aliens period of Obsidian Entertainment made him uncomfortable because he could no longer know everybody. Also remember that their first release as Obsidian was a cinematic heavy Xbox game and their second was nicknamed "Neverwinter: The Movie" by Scorpia because of how cinematic-heavy it was.

I never mentioned BIS because it's irrelevant - Bioware was making old school RPGs in the 90s too, but they made the transition to the cinematic in-game narrative style nonetheless. The issue with Obsidian is that they never made the transition till AP. You look at KOTOR II, churned out in six months, and NWN 2, MoTB, SoZ, these aren't games in the same style of Mass Effect. KOTOR and NWN still had that old RPG style of dialogue trees, and their in-game cinematics were limited by the blocky graphics of the KOTOR era. Look at this next gen eye candy:

Bioware learned the ropes through the course of a R&D process on the back of the KOTOR games and NWN, which were the last old school RPGs made by Bioware. Obsidian never had the financial resources Bioware had when they tried to do their own transition, and combined with the fiasco of having to redo Alpha Protocol after Mitsoda left the company, the results came out mediocre. They did improve in New Vegas, but at the end of the day I still don't think Obsidian has the know-how and comfort to move in the cinematic narrative space the way Bioware moves. I've yet to see an Obsidian game that isn't laden with below average graphics production value, for example, when measured against other AAA games.

 

[Duraframe300]

Interview from that bunny guy is out



I'm not sure I like that interviewer much. He did ask some good questions though.

 

[Infinitron]

George asks good questions.

 

[Liston]

The timer thing was justified in some cases (such as when you have to decide which files from a self-erasing flash drive you want to keep), but mostly it didn't make any sense whatsoever. Why should artificial time constraints be enforced on me when I'm asking a dude about mission objectives?

What? It makes perfect sense. That's not how conversations work in real life, nobody is going to wait for your retort for several minutes until you decide what is the best way to persuade him. The most difficult thing with lying/trying to make an impression is that you have to make a split second decisions about what to say, you have to start talking as soon as your conversation partner finishes or it would be obvious that you aren't sincere and that you are thinking too hard.