Does my ideal dungeon crawler exist?

[nihil]

Despite my appreciation for RPGs, I really haven't played many of the old ones, specifically dungeon crawlers. I've dabbled, but haven't really found one that stuck with me. (Admittedly I've sometimes lost interest before giving it a fair chance.)

I have this mental image of a hypothetical dungeon crawler where you explore mystical locations, searching for clues, trying to figure out how and by which logic the place is held together. In it, you have to utilize all your tools to proceed, be it figuring out the solutions to riddles, the right way to use items you have found, or using spells in non-conventional ways to manipulate your surroundings. All of this is held together by fairly interesting lore/story, and of course, fun combat and encounters.

What I'm not after is a game where party creation and character building is everything, and the game is 99% combat with the occasional sloppy switch puzzle. I want a balanced, complete package, if that makes sense. 1/3 combat, 1/3 problem solving, 1/3 story would be ideal.

Are there games that match my above description, or do I have too high expectations of the genre? (The Dark Spire for DS seemed promising for what I played, except the story, but I lost my save, so I'd rather start something new.)

I'm on a Mac right now, so preferably recommend a DOS game (so it runs in DosBox).

 

[octavius]

Ultima Underworld.

 

[Micmu]

Yep, you're describing Ultima Underworld.

 

[mondblut]

What I'm not after is a game where party creation and character building is everything

A game where party creation and character building isn't everything is not a dungeon crawl.

 

[Gregz]

ADOM is the closest of the roguelikes I can think of.

For what it's worth, Dungeon Master and its sequel are about 1/2 combat, 1/2 problem solving.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Both Ultima Underworld games come to mind.

The second game has more of the "exploring mystial locations" and "figure out how and by which logic the place is held together" as it encompasses several different areas instead of just one large mountain dungeon, but overall both games are rather solid.

 

[sea]

Not to mention Arx Fatalis, especially if Ultima Underworld is a bit dated for your tastes. It's basically the same game, but in glorious 3D. Can't recall if there is a Mac version but you can probably get it running somehow.

 

[Twinkle]

If you decide to go with Arx check Arx Libertatis:

http://arx-libertatis.org/

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

Grimoire.

 

[Misconnected]

Not to mention Arx Fatalis, especially if Ultima Underworld is a bit dated for your tastes. It's basically the same game, but in glorious 3D. Can't recall if there is a Mac version but you can probably get it running somehow.

Mind that if you're the least but pissy about things like user interfaces, Arx Fatalis may very well drive you to murder. It's not so much that it is clunky (though it definitely is). The problem is that it is ass-backwards and complicated for the sake of complication. Interfacing with Arx will make you feel about as graceful as an elephant-sized millipede on LSD in a china shop.

 

[nihil]

I did play Arx Fatalis a while back, and the exploration bit was cool, but I lost interest for some reason. It might have been that combat was pretty shallow. I also remember it felt a bit corny with the voices and stuff. Anyway, it's not a bad recommendation for what I was asking. I might revisit it, but I think I'd rather try something I haven't played.

Ultima Underworld is also real time FPS-like as far as I know, but it definitely sounds like I should check it out.

What about games with a bit more combat depth? Turn-based? I'm not against party creation and stuff, I just don't want combat to be the whole game.

Grimoire.

Sounds interesting, but I 'd rather wait till it's finished.

 

[SCO]

Not to mention Arx Fatalis, especially if Ultima Underworld is a bit dated for your tastes. It's basically the same game, but in glorious 3D. Can't recall if there is a Mac version but you can probably get it running somehow.

Mind that if you're the least but pissy about things like user interfaces, Arx Fatalis may very well drive you to murder. It's not so much that it is clunky (though it definitely is). The problem is that it is ass-backwards and complicated for the sake of complication. Interfacing with Arx will make you feel about as graceful as an elephant-sized millipede on LSD in a china shop.

You can setup the controls so you only use the mouse if you have a 3 buttons+roll mouse.

Glorious pc master race

If you don't mind a party being fairly essential, try realms of arkania. Lots of puzzles there and it's TB. Combat can be boring though due to the ideal way to clobber things being the same depending on your spells and supplies.

But really play ultima underworld

 

[nihil]

Getting UU now. Are there differences between the CD and floppy versions?

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Dragon Wars

 

[nihil]

OK, character creation. Can you learn new skills as you play, or are you stuck with the initial ones? I.e. can my fighter learn spell casting and lore later on?

Dragon Wars

Will look it up.

 

[Morkar Left]

Dark heart of Uukrul?

 

[Bruma Hobo]

OK, character creation. Can you learn new skills as you play, or are you stuck with the initial ones? I.e. can my fighter learn spell casting and lore later on?

Yes he can, but he will be stuck with his initial attributes (Str, Dex, Int), so you should roll a high strength character, always. Trust me.

 

[SCO]

you might has well tell him how many times he needs to roll in the class he chooses to get max str (the game doesn't have random rolls).

The reason why max str is useful even if you're going to be fireballing is that it sets max carry capacity.

 

[Eyeball]

UU is a good suggestion for you, UU2 even more so. Its story is a lot less cohesive than UU1's, but it takes place over like 10-12 different dimensions with a different theme each, many of them having local magical rules that you need to work out to progress.

Other than that, replay Arx. As a wizard. When playing as a warrior, it is bloody difficult and somewhat simple in mechanics. When playing as a thief, it is more or less impossible due to insufficient fighting prowess. When playing as a wizard, it is the best first-person dungeon crawler ever made due to the spell system, and if you find it unwieldy you just need to practice moar.

I'd suggest you play Anvil of Dawn too, but that's frankly just because it is SO motherfucking atmospheric. Combat and puzzles are very simple.

 

[felicity]

Brandish if you don't mind old school top-down console arpg. I really liked the atmosphere. The story mostly revolves around solving the mystery of some huge gigantic old ruins/tower. Most of the story is told within the ruins. The dungeons have a lot of floor traps and platforming involved though and along with the punishing difficulty from the old console era the gameplay can be frustrating. Weapons and items have endurance and they break after limited numbers of uses. TBH I have no patience for this kind of games now but then I was never really into that genre. You can play it on a snes emulator.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

OK, character creation. Can you learn new skills as you play, or are you stuck with the initial ones? I.e. can my fighter learn spell casting and lore later on?

Dragon Wars

Will look it up.

It has everything you are looking for in your original post. Don't forget to grab the manual for it contains paragraphs that you will need to read during the game.

 

[Sceptic]

Getting UU now. Are there differences between the CD and floppy versions?

Depends on which floppy version you have. GET THE PATCHED VERSION. DO NOT GET INITIAL FLOPPY RELEASE. So getting CD might be safer (always patched). Initial release (of both UWs) has some very very nasty bugs, some of which will make the game unwinnable without you knowing straight away.

Initial skills you pick at char creation just give you a boost. As SCO pointed out stats are the ones you need to pay close attention to. Pick a class that has a high stat governing the skills you will want to use. Pick only one weapon style, you really don't need to mix. I always pick swords, as they're the most balanced weapons, though not necessarily the best. Axes do more damage but are slower, maces do less damage but hit very quickly. You want a way to identify stuff - either with the spell, or with Lore, because otherwise there's no way to know if you picked a magic weapon or armor unless you look up a walkthrough. Some of the magic items look very different, others look perfectly normal (and one of the most useful items in UW2 looks perfectly ordinary).

Also ignore every and any thing Elzair says about this game.

 

[octavius]

Re UU:
The GOG version works flawlessly. I played it some months ago, and didn't experience a single bug, missing item or error message.
STR is by far the most important stat, and you should try to get it as close to 30 as possible.
Not all classes can get the max STR of 30. Druid is a good class since they can get max STR, start with Lore skill and have a good mix of martial and magic abilities.

 

[SCO]

That was Janco.

Walkthrough stats spoilers:

Spoiler

Character Creation:
------------------

Throw away all the characters in the beginning. For each character class
there are a number of random skills assigned each time that you create a new
character,... except that they aren't random!
Let's say I want to be a fighter. I create a bunch of fighter characters
and throw them all away, but not after writing down each ones' attributes. Now
I quit the game, and re-start the game. I again create a character. The exact
same sequence of characters will appear in the exact same order, but now I know
exactly which one to keep!!
Strength is the most important skill of all. Most of the rest can be im-
proved later via shrine chants, but not Strength.
Fighters, Druids, and Tinkers generally have high Strength factors.
You will want to have a Strength factor of at least 25 in order to wear
plate armor, and still be able to carry a fair amount of goodies. Your carry
capacity (measured in units of "stones") is exactly twice your Strength rating.

The three primary skills (Strength, Intel., Dexterity) are factored in with the
other skill ratings. The final value used by the game seems to be proportional
to the skill level multiplied by the primary skill level tied to it. These
associations are as follows:

Strength: Attack Defense Unarmed Sword Mace Missile Axe
Intelligence: Mana Casting Lore
Dexterity: Sneak Swim Search Lockpick Charm Acrobat Traps Repair Appraise

For example: If you are trying to pick a lock, the game uses a number based on
your Dexterity TIMES your Lockpick skill.

Maximum Vitality and Mana Capacities: These seem to depend on several factors.
The present theory is as follows:

Vitality: Depends on Strength and Experience level
Mana: Depends on Intelligence, Experience, and Mana skill rating

The precise equations using these numbers remain a mystery.

BTW, the class is not actually important except for initial skills and item, in the late ultima tradition. Like in arx, it's fun to search for runes.
I'm sorry but i can't remember a good number of repetitions to get a high str char + respectable others

 

[nihil]

I went with the CD version. Is that guy Bragit lying to me, or what? His directions to the human settlement make no sense! Anyway, the game seems pretty cool, other than the combat.

EDIT: OK, so his directions did make sense. They were just confusing.

Brandish

Holy shit. An SNES game I haven't heard of? And one that looks cool. This was unexpected. Thanks for the tip.