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Fallout 3 2D/TB vs 3D/FPS

MacBone

Scholar
Joined
Apr 21, 2006
Messages
554
Location
Brutopia
What's wrong with a greater pistol skill equalling a higher accuracy? If I'm a poor shot, I can aim as much as I want and still have a lower chance of hitting my target than if I'm an expert marksman. Start at a base accuracy for a novice that factors in distance from the target, target's cover, and stability of the weapon. The more familiar I become, the better my marksmanship and the quicker my reload time should be.

Same with swinging a sword. If I have absolutely no ability with a sword, my swing will probably be slower, I won't connect with my target as much, and I'll do less damage (unless I get really lucky). An experience melee fighter shouldn't have to do much to avoid me and take me out. As a sword master, my movements should be fluid, precise, and deadly.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
MacBone said:
What's wrong with a greater pistol skill equalling a higher accuracy? If I'm a poor shot, I can aim as much as I want and still have a lower chance of hitting my target than if I'm an expert marksman.

Sure but I don't think that this is good gameplay wise in fps, at low skill it is not fun because your inaccuracy is ridiculous on high it is to big. If it is done like in Deus ex at start you hardly hit non moving big target that you aim at personally, and you have to wait long to have any accuracy. As for section8 on/off weapon upgrades would fit good in that system, accuracy could be shown whit % (why not? but that doesn't matter) but differences should not be as big as in Deus x and you should not got perfect, still you would have more advanced system (arcanum like).
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
Just because I don't care to read the usual FP/RTvsTB/?etc bullshit that these topics usually bring up, I ignored it.


I have a much more important point to make - the integral design of Fallout.

Fallout was much of the Cold War, much of the fears and etc. add in a bit of EC Comics' style of sociological commentary and dark ironies, and associated items that follow the dark ironies and general theme - there you have the mere setting in a nutshell. The setting was an alternate timeline, but in a "what-if" scenario of the Earth being nuked. Well, to be honest, it would only take a few high-altitude blasts to almost completely fry much of the US' current electronics. So what could have been spared, and be of use to a post-nuclear disaster survivor? Tubes.

The design, as explained to me by both messieurs Timothy Cain and Leonard Boyardsky, encompasses each element more deeply than "well, let's just use x". Therefore, also symbolic to the retro nature of the character system/combat being from the roots of role-playing games (P&P), the silicon semi-conductor aka transistor, was never discovered or developed. As if ignoring the development of the transistor, the design of Fallout was ignoring the current trend of RPGs to become more "action-based" (often in truth just being hack and slash in a stat system), and returning to a more solid, endurable design, yet progressing upon it. Fallout was notable because it was a trend-breaker, and has deep design put behind it (though, party NPC and the combat could have been better). This design also included the viewpoint, making the characters upon the combat field look more like tabletop RPG figurines.

The original right-click menu had the stereotypical references to the Illuminati and deeper, veiled meanings. The in-references in this game are numerous and deep, and due to their EC Comics' influence, I suggest that some reading into them to understand their style is due. Social commentary all the way through, with a lot of symbolism. Fallout's humor is secondarily based upon parody, and not really intended in the style of Fallout 2. Pop-culture jokes = lame, usually, unless it's a funny bit in an adventure game, and then it had better be Sam & Max. Another one of EC Comics' titles was MAD, which is still around in some form today. Tales from the Crypt as another.

One of the major elements, one of the Dark Ironies of major importance to the Fallout storyline, is that a weapon that destroyed the world saved the world from that which was created to save mankind pre-war.

Biological weapons were used,
Counter-development of a retro-virus (FEV) to prevent infection of biological weapons.
Instead of stopping at making someone immune, or stabilizing the effects of the genetic changes, the military has intents to design a weapon.
Amusingly enough, the scientists in turn use some of the military prisoners as guinea pigs.
October 23 is a rather interesting date, given some events that occured on the date of the Great War bombs falling.*
Fast forward to The Master, perhaps one of the most in-depth villains ever. Simply because he isn't a Big Bad Boss, you don't need to confront him, and you can "attack" him in a number of ways.
The Master wants to use the FEV to unify the human race, using what was meant to save the US to infect and turn it into his creepy little empire.
The Master, for being intelligent and a powerful psychic...couldn't tell that there were no little super-mutants running about. A flaw is found in his perfect plan to unite the remaining world.
The Vault Dweller stops The Master with a nuke, a remainder of what destroyed the world, using it to stop the threat of what was supposed to protect the US.
The nuke destroys The Cathedral, ending the threat of The Master's plans.
The descendants of the military's remains help to contain and combat the mistakes brought about the military from before the Great War.

Many layers of dark ironies, things being twisted into what they weren't meant to be, and skillfully done.

It is a bit to wrap around if you aren't already aware of the connection, but let me explain a bit about the developers themselves, first, which I believe is the most important part. Many of the game designers behind Fallout have been around, designing long before Bard's Tale, and have finally been putting many of their ideas to code. All good developers are like this, in fact it was often how a character was brought to life in Ultima - they were an alter-ego of one of the designers, and treated like that. Once you can make a character talk, it isn't much more to give them a bit of a personality - mainly by showing their responses to the player's actions. This was put forth in Ultima, with people responding to how you act upon the world, and later developers built upon this. I *do* have to note that much of the old-school developers were friends with each other, and tended to like playing each other's games. They strove to out-do each other in what made them good, but not by lamely copying each other. Else, what point would there be to buy multiple games, only to find out that they lack character due to playing too much alike? So, each series was loved for what made it fun and often fugly, as some developers also helped each other with interface design. Criticism was taken and heeded, as it was often good and concisely put. And it wasn't drowned out by a number of console trash going on about how Fallout was a fun shooter for them and of course it should be a FPS of sorts.

This NPC response by followers was limited in Fallout, as there was much else being done, namely the depth of the world. It was a miracle, given the dubious design already in place at Interplay, with Descent to Undermountain. Troika's later games show an extension to the NPC reactions, most effectively with Arcanum.

Depth is what they were trying to achieve, in all aspects, including character depth. If it were not for Sierra insisting upon compromising the combat, the balancing would have likely been spot-on. The team at Troika are quite familiar with P&P mechanics, and this was their best attempt at accomplishing the impossible of mixing two time bases without having an extensive alternative character system or way of deriving stats, and combining RT and TB gameplay.

Another good dark irony is the original ending to Junktown:
If you helped the rigid, unforgiving sheriff, there was a reign of terror where people were afraid to break the law, else they were hanged or shot on the spot.
If you helped the owner of the casino, he is of dubious morality, yet forms a prosperous living for the inhabitants of Junktown.

This was to be THE quest design irony and destroyer of the cliché "help the good guy to help everyone, kill the bad guy to save everyone" mission/quest. The reason it wasn't used? Because it wasn't what people expected and they should be rewarded a bit more linear. Um...yeah.

See, even Fallout's discarded ideas are better than most of today's design. :D


* - from http://www.cnn.com/almanac/9810/23/, many of these work well into amusing coincidences, given other characters and elements from Fallout 2:
# In 1864, forces led by Union Gen. Samuel R. Curtis defeated Confederate Gen. Stirling Price's army in Missouri.

# In 1915, 25.000 women marched in New York City, demanding the right to vote.

# In 1946, the U.N. General Assembly convened in New York for the first time, at an auditorium in Flushing Meadow.

# In 1956, an anti-Stalinist revolt that was subsequently crushed by Soviet troops began in Hungary.

# In 1958, Boris Pasternak, author of "Doctor Zhivago," was named winner of the Nobel Prize in literature. However, Soviet authorities pressured Pasternak into relinquishing the award.

# In 1973, President Richard Nixon agreed to turn White House tape recordings requested by the Watergate special prosecutor over to Judge John J. Sirica.

# In 1978, China and Japan exchanged treaty ratification documents in Tokyo, formally ending four decades of hostility.

# In 1987, the U.S. Senate rejected the nomination of Robert H. Bork to the U.S. Supreme Court by a 58-42 vote.

Now, another reminder about social commentary a la EC Comics:
Two dramatic events of the Senate debate were Senator Edward Kennedy's speech opposing Bork's nomination and the disclosure of Bork's video rental history. Within an hour of Bork's nomination to the Court, Kennedy took to the Senate floor with a strong condemnation of it. Kennedy declared, "Robert Bork's America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens' doors in midnight raids, schoolchildren could not be taught about evolution, writers and artists could be censored at the whim of government."
(From Wiki, great for quotes at a moment.)

And holy fuck, does that sound like the US today. Well, except for the part about the blacks. Oh, shit, that's right, they have to vote at the tampered booths.

So, I guess what I'm trying to get across here is:

People have to be careful how they endorse fucking up Fallout's style, as each element was used for a purpose, and not arbitrarily chosen because it made a bunch of console trash tingle between their legs with graphics and twitch lameplay that would have made anyone in the 90's expecting depth sneer, as they did at how Ultima and other titles were going downhill. So why are shiny, shallow, shitty games ruling now? Which pretty much sums up Oblivion's design. And BioWare's. And Obsidian's. Hey, I notice a trend...
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
Edgy
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Cognitive Elite HQ
If you helped the rigid, unforgiving sheriff, there was a reign of terror where people were afraid to break the law, else they were hanged or shot on the spot.
That doesn't really make sense considering Killian's insistence on getting proof of Gizmo's wrongdoing and "doing things proper-like" and such.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
kingcomrade said:
If you helped the rigid, unforgiving sheriff, there was a reign of terror where people were afraid to break the law, else they were hanged or shot on the spot.
That doesn't really make sense considering Killian's insistence on getting proof of Gizmo's wrongdoing and "doing things proper-like" and such.

All he needed was proof. In essence, Killian was asking you to do his dirty work and bait Gizmo into damning himself so Killian could take over with legitimacy, and remove the only thing that could have opposed him. Lawful Evil, if you must. While Gizmo might have been Chaotic Neutral or something of the sort, he didn't pose much of a threat to those who weren't fucking with him - Killian was, the result of which you walk in upon first meeting Killian.

Who said Killian was all sunshine and blowjobs, anyways? Just because he's got MacGuyver's voice...

Of course, I could have just called you a noob and linked this. :D

With Gizmo out of the way, Killian enforces his brand of frontier justice on Junktown. The city remains orderly but small, as travelers steer away from his rigid sensibilities.

With the picture background behind Killian being a gallows with shadows of dead men hanging from it.

Under Gizmo's leadership, Junktown becomes a trading center and resort, where people come from miles around to gamble, spend money and enjoy themselves in relative safety. Gizmo keeps the town prosperous but healthy, as he has no desire to injure his own affluence. The inhabitants of the town become wealthy and famous.

With the background picture showing Junktown as a Reno-like casino with electricity and clean streets free of any drug dealers or riff-raff who might endanger Gizmo's operations.
 

tunguska

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
227
Dementia Praecox said:
What in-fighting?
Seems like more than half the discussions here eventually degenerate into petty bickering, nitpicking and name calling. The church split up into factions and eventually lost nearly all of its power in the world, some of which may have been due to the same sorts of organizational problems (and the rest perhaps to simple human progress). I didn't use this example because I am religious. In fact, I am an atheist through and through. My point was essentially that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. What if a game dev happens to wander over here occasionally. He might get turned off by all the bickering before we can make our case for the kind of games we would like to see and, even more importantly, the kinds of games we don't want to see ever again.

Dementia Praecox said:
Now, if you are as old as you say, then you sure can't be a native English speaker, because I barely could get anything coherent out of that Morrowind-remark you posted above.
Even if I were not a native speaker, so what? Are you implying that non-native speakers should be excluded from the forum? If you find some way that I am explaining something to be unclear just ask for a rephrasing. I am in fact a native speaker, but my languaging is not what it used to be. I don't always say things as clearly as I might.

Dementia Praecox said:
And further, why do you even care about the age of the ones you are discussing with?
As I said, I wouldn't normally care. I just observed that some of your posts were a bit OTT and that you repeatedly used a word which, based on my past experience was not one that was really used by anyone near to my generation. I seriously have never seen an exception to that. Slang tends to change much more quickly than other parts of a language, and I am trying to still testing this idea of mine that the use of some words can date a person.

The modern use of 'retard' and 'gay' also really irritate me in general. Not because I find the new slang meaning of either word offensive however. It just makes me cringe every time I read it because it sounds so stupid to my elderly ears. No doubt if I had grown up with that usage it would all seem perfectly normal. I just looked up 'gay' in an online dictionary and it goes on and on about the meaning which now is mostly archaic. It doesn't even mention the most recent slang usage which, along with 'retarded' seems to just vaguely mean 'stupid' maybe in some particular pejorative way which might be hard for someone of my generation to fully grok.

Dementia Praecox said:
If you can't take what's written for what it is, and judge form that, then surely knowing whether or not the poster is of this or that age won't do anything to change that?
Actually my intent was sort of the inverse of that. What I find particularly amusing about it is that the writer often is unaware that it dates them (to within a certain range). Most of his peers are his age. To pretty much every one he knows, such usage is completely normal. I guess it's pointless to complain about changes in the English language that I don't like There's not a lot I can do about it. Speak another language maybe. Or never talk to anyone under a certain age (what I generally attempt to do). Maybe it's a generation gap kind of thing.

Dementia Praecox said:
As to why I do it? It's fun! It's plain old fun to bash the newcomers and retards. Very much the same reason that fuel the schoolyard bullies back in preliminary school.
Nice thing to aspire to. The problem with such fun is it tends to ruin the whole environment, at least to a point. If you want to argue at least do it with ideas instead of content-less flaming. I am very interested in the philosophy of (cRPG) game design and would love to find a forum for that. Instead I end up back here. I just haven't found a more serious gaming forum. Certainly not rpgdot and not the Obsidian or Bioware forums which essentially have the same problem. I don't mind the occasional flame war, but when every discussion degenerates into one, you have to enjoy that sort of thing to want to participate. And my patience for it is pretty thin.

Still, if I want to rant about the direction the game industry is taking the cRPG genre, I don't know of a more appropriate place. In a lot of other places it would be considered trolling, but here it would mostly garner the equivalent of nods and "here, here" in addition to the inevitable flame-for-its-own-sake.

I'll get into my (no doubt totally 'retarded' and 'gay') reasons for keeping the term 'immersive' in the cRPG lexicon at a later time. Have you read my post about it on page 2 of this thread? I didn't have time to get into it too much there. I have to give that topic some more thought anyway. Especially about whether the term is <i>completely</i> subjective. So that Pong or Breakout could be considered just as immersive as any other computer game. BTW, I don't believe that immersion is at all necessary for an excellent cRPG. I didn't find BGII to be immersive in the slightest, and I thought the story was painfully bad, but it is still one of my favorite cRPGs.
 
Joined
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Please do reply to my inquiry of your take on immersion before addressing what I write in this post. If anything, you left me wondering even more whit the bits and hints towards it in this post. And trust me, I'd like to know, that's as sincere as I'll ever get. And as you said, you'd come back with a more thought through answer to that later, anyway.

tunguska said:
Dementia Praecox said:
What in-fighting?
Seems like more than half the discussions here eventually degenerate into petty bickering, nitpicking and name calling.
Then I'd suggest you should read some more. Sure, as I said, you have to wade through a lot of shit to find the true gems. But they are there. More numerous than they have been for a long time as well, IMHO. For starters I think you should look up that first topic of yours and see the reply from Saint, there. Combine with what Calis said in this thread, and then make a decision on whether or not The Codex is for you.

tunguska said:
The church split up into factions and eventually lost nearly all of its power in the world, some of which may have been due to the same sorts of organizational problems (and the rest perhaps to simple human progress). I didn't use this example because I am religious. In fact, I am an atheist through and through.
I realize why you used it as an example. But that doesn't make it any better.

tunguska said:
My point was essentially that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
But if that friend is a retard, do you really want to ally with him? Guess I should put in some "Elite Task Force vs. The Peoples Militia"-analogy here, but as you said yourself: "We're talking about games here, for Christs sake".

tunguska said:
What if a game dev happens to wander over here occasionally. He might get turned off by all the bickering before we can make our case for the kind of games we would like to see and, even more importantly, the kinds of games we don't want to see ever again.
I'm in awe of the ignorance you display here. Your account is older than mine, and still you manage to show this complete lack of codex-knowledge. You can't have lurked much, when you weren't posting, that's for sure. This forum has the highest developer vs regulars-ratio I've ever seen in a specialized gaming community. David Gaider and Steve Meister, from Bioware and Bethesda respectively, can both be counted as regulars (IE Meister were when he were allowed). Section8, Vault Dweller and Roshambo, who all has posted in this very thread, are all game developers, for crying out loud. You are so wrong that my eyes are bleeding.

tunguska said:
Even if I were not a native speaker, so what? Are you implying that non-native speakers should be excluded from the forum?
That would be shooting myself in the foot, as I'm not a native speaker myself. So the answer is: No, try again.

tunguska said:
If you find some way that I am explaining something to be unclear just ask for a rephrasing. I am in fact a native speaker, but my languaging is not what it used to be. I don't always say things as clearly as I might.
Well, I've asked for rephrasing already, so that's a moot point right there.

tunguska said:
As I said, I wouldn't normally care. I just observed that some of your posts were a bit OTT and that you repeatedly used a word which, based on my past experience was not one that was really used by anyone near to my generation.
Here is a tip: Base your decisions on your experience on the forum in question. As both I and Calis has pointed out, The Codex isn't your average web forum. And that's why we love it.

tunguska said:
I seriously have never seen an exception to that. Slang tends to change much more quickly than other parts of a language...
I'm not a fan of quoting myself (IE I am), but:
Dementia Praecox said:
The codex begs to differ.
And as a three year old member, you should have seriously picked up on that. Go do a search for "retard" in the news posts on the front page, you're in for a world of "fun".

tunguska said:
...and I am trying to still testing this idea of mine that the use of some words can date a person.
This thread should suffice for saying that is an effort in vain.

tunguska said:
The modern use of 'retard' and 'gay' also really irritate me in general. Not because I find the new slang meaning of either word offensive however. It just makes me cringe every time I read it because it sounds so stupid to my elderly ears. No doubt if I had grown up with that usage it would all seem perfectly normal. I just looked up 'gay' in an online dictionary and it goes on and on about the meaning which now is mostly archaic. It doesn't even mention the most recent slang usage which, along with 'retarded' seems to just vaguely mean 'stupid' maybe in some particular pejorative way which might be hard for someone of my generation to fully grok.
Speaking of which, you did the exact same thing in your first post directed at me. The general use of the word chill in the way you did, make me cringe (TWD is taking notes as we speak, I'd imagine), and it strikes me as a word that usually isn't in the vocabulary of a forty year old.

tunguska said:
Actually my intent was sort of the inverse of that. What I find particularly amusing about it is that the writer often is unaware that it dates them (to within a certain range).
While this might hold true in very general sense, this is extremely retarded to think would be accurate on an Internet forum dedicated to gaming. First off, (this going to make an uprising, I'm sure) an adult that still keep on playing games (such as myself), is very much inclined to be more youthful in mind, than your average adult. Further, when posting in a community, one tends to pick up slang and ways of expressing them selves. This is a very subconscious thing. If you are as old as you say you are, then I seriously doubt that you go around telling agitated people to "chill" in real life. Funny thing, if I were to guess your age, before you promptly stated it, it would have been pretty fucking far from what you say it is. This is based first and foremost on slang, second on what I would describe as slightly retarded opinions (Mind you, this may come from your self declared lackluster ability to express yourself), and thirdly on things you say that plain don't make any sense (perhaps this have the same reasons as my second point, who knows). One major difference between me and you, is that I have a mere 24 post of yours to pass that judgement on, while you, on the other hand, have quite a bit more. So, next time, before making yourself look like a retard, please do some research first.

tunguska said:
Most of his peers are his age. To pretty much every one he knows, such usage is completely normal. I guess it's pointless to complain about changes in the English language that I don't like There's not a lot I can do about it. Speak another language maybe. Or never talk to anyone under a certain age (what I generally attempt to do).
What, why? Are you afraid of getting lice?

tunguska said:
Maybe it's a generation gap kind of thing.
Again with the "I'm so ooold", thing. Yes, we get it. You are old. Now shut up already.

tunguska said:
Nice thing to aspire to. [...] If you want to argue at least do it with ideas instead of content-less flaming.
Well, I do try to make it somewhat entertaining for the spectators as well, as I'm sure most flamers on this board aspire to.

tunguska said:
The problem with such fun is it tends to ruin the whole environment, at least to a point.[...] I am very interested in the philosophy of (cRPG) game design and would love to find a forum for that. Instead I end up back here. I just haven't found a more serious gaming forum. Certainly not rpgdot and not the Obsidian or Bioware forums which essentially have the same problem. I don't mind the occasional flame war, but when every discussion degenerates into one, you have to enjoy that sort of thing to want to participate. And my patience for it is pretty thin.
You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. There is a reason to why this forum has such a high percentage of mature posters, and unfortunately for you, that reason has a side-effect which render you unable to stay here. That much is clear form what you say. Good luck with trying to find a better, free, alternative. You'll need it.

tunguska said:
Still, if I want to rant about the direction the game industry is taking the cRPG genre, I don't know of a more appropriate place. In a lot of other places it would be considered trolling, but here it would mostly garner the equivalent of nods and "here, here" in addition to the inevitable flame-for-its-own-sake.
Such are the horrors of war.
icon_salut.gif


tunguska said:
I'll get into my (no doubt totally 'retarded' and 'gay') reasons for keeping the term 'immersive' in the cRPG lexicon at a later time. Have you read my post about it on page 2 of this thread? I didn't have time to get into it too much there. I have to give that topic some more thought anyway. Especially about whether the term is <i>completely</i> subjective.
Looking forward to this. And to answer your question: yes, I've read all your posts. And I'm still not any wiser. Perhaps I'm just being a retard, eh?

tunguska said:
So that Pong or Breakout could be considered just as immersive as any other computer game. BTW, I don't believe that immersion is at all necessary for an excellent cRPG. I didn't find BGII to be immersive in the slightest, and I thought the story was painfully bad, but it is still one of my favorite cRPGs.
Not helping.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
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Messages
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Location
South Africa
I wish your eyes really were bleeding. Please don't exaggerate like that, it gives me a thrill of happiness, followed shortly thereafter by wrenching sadness as I realise I've been conned.


why this forum has such a high percentage of mature posters

Who are you fucking kidding?


Oh, and that crack about how you take your internet anonymity seriously? AHAhahaHAhA, oh man, way to inflate your own sense of self importance, like anyone gives a damn about who you are.
 
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Naked Ninja said:
I wish your eyes really were bleeding.
I wuw you too, honey.

Naked Ninja said:
Please don't exaggerate like that, it gives me a thrill of happiness, followed shortly thereafter by wrenching sadness as I realise I've been conned.
This is just sad. Not that you want me to bleed out of my eyes, I'm flattered, I assure you, but that you actually mistake a common expression for a fact. That's sad. The joke is on you, buddy.

Naked Ninja said:
why this forum has such a high percentage of mature posters
Who are you fucking kidding?
You are aware that writing "a high percentage" don't necessarily mean that the percentage is a high number? Now if you compare this percentage, how low it ever may be, to the majority of other PC gaming forums, be that RPG or otherwise, I'm willing to bet a decent sum of money that RPGcodex has more mature posters than most. As for you being flamed for every other post you make, you'd have to look for some other reasons than the age of those who flame. Calis' post in this thread would be a good place to start.


Naked Ninja said:
Oh, and that crack about how you take your internet anonymity seriously? AHAhahaHAhA, oh man, way to inflate your own sense of self importance, like anyone gives a damn about who you are.
Hey, fuckhead. It has nothing to do with you, or any other douche on this forum. It has to do with the nature of Internet, and the fact that I might hold some other opinions on whatever topic in twenty years. So when I go about applying for a job in whatever situation in the future, I don't want my boss to go about reading all my opinions on this or that hardcore movie. I don't expect you to understand this, as you obviously are a retard. Oh, and I dare you. Post your full name here if you are so elevated above Internet anonymity.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
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Messages
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South Africa
Ooooh, you dare me! Do you, perhaps....double dare me? Cause that would increase the probability of me doing it by 2!

I'm sorry, people daring me to do things didn't cause me to do them, even in school. But the fact that you've gone down that path is just further proof of your age.


So let me get this straight, you're going to go to a job, right, and while applying for it, your potential employer is going to use the fact that some poster on an obscure website calling himself Dementia Whatever gave out his age!! Oh my, yes, he can surely trace that back to you, in real life, and use it as a weapon against you! :lol:

You sir, are a gem. Every sentance you speak, a goldmine of comedy.

As for you being flamed for every other post you make, you'd have to look for some other reasons

I am well aware of the reasons.


But, coming back the the age thing, here you go, I wil bravely lead the way for you. I am....25 years of age! Oh no, I hope my future emplyer doesn't use that to connect me to Naked Ninja!!! After all, there can't be that many 25 year olds on the planet!
 

made

Arcane
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Dec 18, 2006
Messages
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This thread delivers.

Also, +1 star for Rosh for sharing his insight into Trojka's design philosophy with a touch of nostalgia.
 

denizsi

Arcane
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9,927
Location
bosphorus
Claw said:
sure, but that would still not be correct for isometric-like 3D games. Personally, I favour pseudo-isometric for all styles visually similar to the isometric projection.

I think the term you are looking for is "3D overview", or "overview perspective" for a more to-the-point terminological correctness. AoD, NWN and most 3D strategy games have this 3D overview perspective in common, whereas Prelude to Darkness and UFO:AI are both 3D but and they use parallel projection (though you can also select perspective for UFO:AI in the options).

Also, +1 star for Rosh for sharing his insight into Trojka's design philosophy with a touch of nostalgia.

I imagined about ESFites and Beth reading those and coming up with their fucked-up make-believe explanations of how TES lore is also full of deep social commentaris; I lolled. Sadly, they only need to be provoked to actually do this.
 
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
1,269
Location
The Von Braun, Deck 5
Naked Ninja said:
Ooooh, you dare me! Do you, perhaps....double dare me? Cause that would increase the probability of me doing it by 2!
It would? Double dare, then.

Naked Ninja said:
I'm sorry, people daring me to do things didn't cause me to do them, even in school. But the fact that you've gone down that path is just further proof of your age.
Then what's my age, oh mighty know-all?

Naked Ninja said:
So let me get this straight, you're going to go to a job, right, and while applying for it, your potential employer is going to use the fact that some poster on an obscure website calling himself Dementia Whatever gave out his age!! Oh my, yes, he can surely trace that back to you, in real life, and use it as a weapon against you! :lol:
Why, yes? Yes it could. When I was in apprenticeship some years back, and we were applying for new apprentices to take over after me, I were given a list of names and their age, and asked to dig up as much dirt as I possibly could. And mind you, dirt I found. There were a couple who will have serious trouble getting a job anywhere if their future employer just did a quick google on them.

Now if I were to, say, crack a joke about how much I like to rape little children, which is a recurring theme here on The Codex. I most likely wouldn't appreciate having that joke, taken entirely out of context, attached to my persona in some distant future. Because you are aware, that everything you write on the Internet leaves a trace, and most likely will be accessible in some form or another, for, like, forever? And it will stay accessible until a nuclear Holocaust removes all traces of the Internet from the face of the earth? The more you reveal about yourself in any different situations make it more likely to piece together different parts of what ever you've left behind, and that can ultimately be attached to your persona. It's not about me revealing my age in some silly pissing contest, it's about principle.

Naked Ninja said:
You sir, are a gem. Every sentance you speak, a goldmine of comedy.
Why thank you, kind retard. I aim to please.

Naked Ninja said:
As for you being flamed for every other post you make, you'd have to look for some other reasons
I am well aware of the reasons.
Good for you. Somehow I suspect that the reasons you are "aware of", differ somewhat from the actual reasons. Care to elaborate on this?

Naked Ninja said:
But, coming back the the age thing, here you go, I wil bravely lead the way for you. I am....25 years of age! Oh no, I hope my future emplyer doesn't use that to connect me to Naked Ninja!!! After all, there can't be that many 25 year olds on the planet!
Haha, trust me. Knowing your exact age don't exactly work for your benefit. Not that I believe you or anything. And as a small FYI, you better damn well hope that no one can connect naked ninja to your real life persona. I know I wouldn't hire Naked Ninja.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
Interesting fallout lore fellas.

I will say this all the perspective I need:

Code:
+-----+
|....<|
|..@..|
|.d...|
|....S|
+--#--+
   #
   #
   #

The reason I keep harping on it is when you have enough to do in a game, graphics or perspective don't matter. Now, I liked gears of war/shadows of the colossus as much as anyone. Just saying that its better to have a lot to do in an rpg then have a pretty game.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
And as a small FYI, you better damn well hope that no one can connect naked ninja to your real life persona. I know I wouldn't hire Naked Ninja.

I shall consider myself duly warned, thank you for the heads up.
 

Naked Ninja

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
1,664
Location
South Africa
Dude, its a friday afternoon, work is almost over and I'm about to go home and try the Geneforge4 demo. I'm sure you will still be here spewing pages of insults about retards when I get back on Monday.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
_elander said:
I don't know about not being able to use a pistol. Even a monkey could use a pistol but only a human with some skill would be able to unjam it or install a mod. I enjoy good balance but i also enjoy a realistic balance. The damage thing would be a possibility but there are other alternatives like having more and better criticals with an higher skill.

Realism can go and get fucked. I don't think we're talking about an immersion breaker. There may be mild initial frustration, but I don't think it's an insurmountable obstacle. Just something that might take some getting used to.

Galsiah said:
If you do that with every skill, you'd create an unsubtle, all-or-nothing system. I'm not sure a system that can't cope with at least: "can't use a pistol", "ok with a pistol", "expert pistol marksman", is a great RPG setup. YES/NO might be defining, but with very broad brush-strokes.

I'm not saying it's a great RPG setup, I'm saying that it seems like the best compromise to me for a hybrid FPS/RPG. Since the player's own dexterity/reflexes are being used for finer details, then I think it makes sense to be making broader strokes with the RPG elements.

If you only do it for skills that have high player skill influence, it seems like reflex compensation, rather than thoughtful design.

Well actually, I'd rather keep it uniform. Making it selective does seem reactionary, whereas designing it from the ground up as a uniform system based on the strengths and shortcomings you anticipate is thoughtful design.

If it's not a good idea without player skill involved (and I don't think a binary decision is), I'm not sure I see why it's a good idea when you involve player skill.

Well first of all, it's only a binary decision when isolated from the context of the system. In reality, the choice would have many more permutations. Spend points on pistol, or save up for SMG spec? Do I have a reliable source of pistol ammo? Am I stealthy, and therefore able to close to pistol range before an enemy is aware of me? Etc.

As for the impact of player skill, part of it is simplifying the design, to aid gameworld designers in creating more focused scenarios, and part of it is denying the player opportunities to exceed their character ability. Naturally, both aspects are closely linked. I'll try to elaborate more with some examples.

Was Deus Ex's targeting badly done anyway? If so, what was wrong with it?

The idea of a reticle with variable width is a great idea, since it provides constant feedback to the character, and even better it's an interface element that is almost always the focal point, without unnecessarily obstructing the player's view. I know Deus Ex wasn't the first to use this feature, but its excellent design is evident.

However, the underlying system never really did it for me. It works exceedly well in multiplayer, since time really becomes a premium, but Deus Ex affords more lenience to the patient player. Accuracy becomes more of a time sink than anything else, and gameplay becomes less a product of the character choices the player has made, and more of a resource management exercise. Do I have an abundance of pistols and pistol ammo? If yes, what precludes me from just hailing wayward lead until my opponents die? Do I have the time to sit and wait for my reticle to shrink while my enemy moonwalks his way toward me?

Admittedly, a more natural means of prohibition could be achieved, but what's ultimately more frustrating to the player? Not being able to use a weapon, or being able to use one that constantly misses?

And as always, there's the whole notion that character skill lessens the challenge of most activities. The 100% accuracy example you gave is spot on.

A boolean "can_use" doesn't walk this slippery slope, since it basically entails - "Can the player participate in the challenge?" You're giving the player the option of what avenues are available to test their player skill, rather than some indistinct mutant hybrid that has a chaotic non-challenge at one end of the spectrum, and a predictable non-challenge at the other.

As a game mechanic, I thought it worked pretty well (though having max skill give 100% perfect aim was a mistake IMO - it felt wrong). If it stops Deus Ex, or any other such game, being an RPG, is that a bad thing?

Honestly, I couldn't give a fuck if a game is an RPG or not, since I enjoy games across the whole spectrum (mind you, incorrect labels do bother me more than they ought to), but I do have a preference toward RPGs, and also toward meaningful choices.

As a game mechanic, Deus Ex's stat system got on my bad side. In order to keep from frustrating the player, most of the character choices were tepid and barely defined. Untrained in explosives? Nevermind. It's not like LAMs are hard to disable anyway! Not a trained sniper? Who cares?! You still have a sniper rifle that you can use, and the enemy is too far away to hit you while you spend 10 minutes lining up a shot!

I don't see why it's necessary to make sure that e.g. player X with character skill 1 must always perform worse than player Y with character skill 2. So long as a given player always gains significantly with increased character skill, there's a significant character-based differentiation.

The problem is, in order to keep from frustrating the player with a useless choice - for instance, a player with no skill in pistol that can choose to use a pistol but constantly fail (why not just prohibit them? ;)) - then generally the lowest skill level is still serviceable. From there, a significant change is difficult, because ideally, you don't want the highest skill level to destroy the challenge. So, you end up with a spectrum between workable and challenging. Hardly leaps and bounds.

As soon as you include player skill, that's naturally going to be part of what defines the player character. Intentionally circumventing that by going to extremes on character definition, just seems a knee-jerk response. It's artificially forcing a natural player-skill/character-skill hybrid into a character-skill mould (in terms of character definition).

Once you open the FP/RT/player-skill door, you need to roll with the punches. Clinging to a pure character-skill model like grim death makes little sense in the context.

I like to see it as protecting the player from themselves. :D

It makes sense to keep the contraints clear if only to better enable a focused design. For instance, I believe Chess is a better game than Archon (although I do enjoy both) simply because Chess has no variable rules. Scissors-Paper-Rock would be diminished by extrapolation (Are the scissors blunt? Is the paper wet? Is the paper big enough to encompass the entire rock? Does the rock have protruding spikes that will pierce the paper? Etc.)

If the designer can know instead of assume then his work becomes more informed.

Of course...

It might sometimes make sense to use three or four discrete levels, rather than e.g. continuous/percentage skills. Going to simple YES/NO options just seems undesirably restrictive for most skills.

As long as you're able to preserve focus of design, distinction of character, and eliminate obvious choices, then I'm not averse to multiple skill levels.

Of course, I believe the most appropriate approach to take is enabling of further options, rather than merely say, decreasing the margin of error.

For instance, I much prefer:

0 - can't use a pistol
1 - can use a pistol
2 - can reload without being stationary

...over...

0 - can use pistol inaccurately, slow to reload
1 - can use pistol with average accuracy and average reload speed
2 - can use pistol with deadly accuracy and reload with lighting speed

Hope that made some sense. This post was brought to you by the letters red wine and boredom.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
I've always thought the skills should be thought of in terms of formal training.
unskilled
basic
average user
expert
master
god-like

then tasks should have difficulties:
very easy
easy
hard
very hard
impossible

someone unskilled with a pistol should have no problems doing something easy with it, but hard or very hard ought to be a rare day, with impossible, being, well impossible. The baseline case is the average user.

that way there's fine grain and meaning without complexity.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Section8 said:
Realism can go and get fucked. I don't think we're talking about an immersion breaker. There may be mild initial frustration, but I don't think it's an insurmountable obstacle. Just something that might take some getting used to.

You are right in front of someone with weapon scope centered on the dude. You shoot right on his chest and fail 50% of the time at low skill. How come this isn't immersion breaking? My grandmother with arthritis would do better than this.

The problem with this kind of gameplay is that it is too artificial and leads to artificial combat scenarios. Fighting with guns at short range is suicide. An expert with weapons is very accurate at long range so he can take out enemies from far away while enemies can't do it to him because they miss.

At short range everyone and his grandmother is accurate with a weapon. That's why a jinxed scope would be much better than whatever that thing DeusEx used.

Then some real consequences for being shot at short range. If you get shot at this range you get a good chance of loosing control of a leg, an arm or droping unconscious to the floor, so you will need a team and some backup to help you when an accident happens.
 

kingcomrade

Kingcomrade
Edgy
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
26,884
Location
Cognitive Elite HQ
@Rosh
I know it was in the game. I was just thinking that it wasn't all that congruous to how Killian and his guys were portrayed in-game.

Sexion 8 said:
The idea of a reticle with variable width is a great idea
Like in the Armored Core games?
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,775
kingcomrade said:
@Rosh
I know it was in the game. I was just thinking that it wasn't all that congruous to how Killian and his guys were portrayed in-game.

They would tend to shoot on sight if you had your weapons out, for instance. They were portrayed as being "the law" and enforcing it, but aside from that it doesn't really go into that much depth unless you assume details along RPG clichés...and that is where the ironic ending was supposed to come in, to go against your expectations. Gizmo was meant to turn into a resort owner that had an eye on greed and personal affluence, while Killian turned into Judge Dredd. Now with a parallel of the Cursed Earth and the Atomic Wars, and the nod to the comic is complete.* But thank Interplay's marketing spuds for insisting that it be dumbed down and more stereotypical. So they had to add something else, that Gizmo choked on a bit of Iguana-on-a-Stick, which is a product of Doc Morbid, another Junktown resident. :D

* -
For instance, notice that likeMega-City One, Junktown is walled.
More references include the kinds of crime, including my favorite:
Organ leggers: those who cut up citizens and sell their organs on the black market.
 

tunguska

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
227
Dementia Praecox said:
Please do reply to my inquiry of your take on immersion before addressing what I write in this post.
I'll spam my mini-essay in a new thread when it's finished, and I have had more time to consider it. For now, I'll just say that immersion is the subjective sense of feeling like you are <i>right there</i>. Inside the game world. Not just your game character but you yourself. To the extent that current tech allows. Immersion is a subjective experience so it can be created in <i>any</i> manner that results in that 'in there' feeling. Some features that can create immersion are: Visual Realism (graphics, display tech, detail, rendering, parallax etc), Audio Realism, AI, World Simulation, Story. [I will expand on these in a separate post]. If someone feels 'immersed' by a game of pong (or Oblivion) then so be it.

Dementia Praecox said:
For starters I think you should look up that first topic of yours and see the reply from Saint, there.
Haha. I just checked that thread. I'm flattered that you went through the trouble to read my first post. Did you think I hadn't read the replies? I reserve the right to complain about flame wars as many times as I want. My point in that post was to point out a rare place on the internet that used to exist and <i>didn't</i> have many flame wars. but it was probably moderated. My intention was not so much to complain about the ones that were here. Not that it isn't a valid complaint for someone who prefers discussion to name calling. I was sort of hoping to find someone who might have been there. It seemed sad that there was no replacement.

Dementia Praecox said:
and then make a decision on whether or not The Codex is for you.
Actually I don't think it is for me. At least not in the sense of some kind of refuge or place to hang. From that first post I could see that it wasn't. That's not to say that it is completely without value however. Sometimes I just want to think out loud about cRPG philosophy. Ideally I would be able to participate in a civilized exchange of ideas about said philosophy. I just wouldn't expect that here. Getting either completely ignored or just flamed seems a lot more likely.

Dementia Praecox said:
The general use of the word chill in the way you did, make me cringe (TWD is taking notes as we speak, I'd imagine), and it strikes me as a word that usually isn't in the vocabulary of a forty year old.
Actually I don't use that word much, but it <i>is</i> a word that people from my generation use. Just ask any American (preferably a native) in their late 30s about the word. Although not many people my age probably still use it much if that is your point. A point I was making about the other slang is that it is so new that no one has ever used it in that way until quite recently. Another example that was used earlier in this thread was 'emo'. Doesn't annoy me or make me cringe. It just puzzles me. At first I figured it was just short for emotional, but it seems to mean more than that. I even googled it a while back and all I found was lots of teenage blogs and something about it being like a kind of punk rock.

Dementia Praecox said:
This is based first and foremost on slang, second on what I would describe as slightly retarded opinions
Haha. You do realize that by using the same adjective to describe so many different things the word starts to become almost meaningless. I can usually substitute the word stupid for retard to (hopefully) extract the meaning, but that doesn't seem to work here. Sometimes something resembling 'bad' seems to apply. but that doesn't seem to work here either. So, although I get the vague sense that you don't like my opinions in some way, I don't get a very specific idea of why or in what sense you don't like them. But I actually don't care so it is irrelevant anyway. I am not here to make friends.

Dementia Praecox said:
on things you say that plain don't make any sense
Care to give an example? Some things I say may be wordy or repetitive <cough> and lack the clarity of a good writer, but I don't normally speak in word salads. I can say things more concisely when I do a second draft, but it rarely seems worth the effort in forums like this when I'm not sure if anyone will even read it or if they do offer some useful reply.

Dementia Praecox said:
There is a reason to why this forum has such a high percentage of mature posters, and unfortunately for you, that reason has a side-effect which render you unable to stay here.
You mean constant flame wars?

Dementia Praecox said:
Good luck with trying to find a better, free, alternative.
I never claimed one existed, but I would be quite pleased if I could find one.

BTW, I may not be able to flame like the kiddies, but here goes. Fuck you, cunt. How'd I do? Unfortunately the English language is kind of limited in terms of insults. Spanish is much juicier. Especially if you actually want to get into a fistfight with someone using words. Don't you feel your constant use of 'retard' limits your creativity in insulting people? Surely you should switch it out occasionally for something else. Of course, you will use the word as much as possible with me because you think you are being clever.
 

tunguska

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
227
Section8 said:
Obsidian, who have what, two lacklustre sequels to Bioware games that should have been Slam Dunks! given the licenses and (undeserved) reputation of their predecessors? I'll freely admit there's a lot of talent over there, but something just isn't going quite right. It's not even as though they are aiming too high and falling short a la Troika or Pirahna Bytes, they're just not putting anything special on the market.
As far as their sequels, fair enough. However I think it is important to understand their situation. It was not an easy thing for Feargus and Chris and other Black Isle folks to just start up a new company. They have to make a living making games and in a market which seems increasingly hostile to cRPGs. They no longer have some large company to take the fall. If they can't recoup their costs on just one title that could be enough to put them into bankruptcy. I think we need to have a little patience with them. It hasn't been that long yet since they split from Interplay. I don't think they are just in the business for the money.

Section8 said:
I wouldn't be so hasty to attribute the "lack of immersiveness" of the Infinity Engine series. As you say yourself, Planescape: Torment is one of about four games you consider to be immersive. Given that all other IE games have more in common with an RTS than an RPG, I'd be looking at other reasons why the games didn't pull you in. And just as a quick poser - do you really have to be 'there'?
I don't think immersion is the most important quality in a fun game. Not by a long shot. But all other things being equal, I would prefer some immersion in a game. I would still happily play a text only game if I could find one that interested me. What made PS:T seem 'immersive' to me was the great story and dialogue. Arguably the best writing and story of any cRPG.

Section8 said:
Fuck that. There are a myriad of differences between a true turn-based system and auto-pausing RT systems. Since your major gripe is that simple fights can be tiresome with turn-based gameplay, then listen the fuck up, because I have a more generic solution than the fucked up kludgefest that is RTwP. Get rid of easy, non-tactical fights. It's fucking simple. And there are a multitude of ways you can achieve it. Fuck, even just a more elegant hack would do me. Simultaneous enemy movement. An "automate turn" button.
I like the occasional encounter with a bunch of low level monsters that I can wipe out with one well placed fireball. It adds some variety. I remember in Ultima Underworld how I could go back to, say, the gray goblin area after achieving a high level and intimidate them into giving me their stuff because they could see that I was such a serious badass. Sure, its a small thing, but those kinds of small bits of fun can add up.

As for an 'automate turns' button, not a bad idea, but wouldn't that be essentially the same as RTwAP?

If given the choice between strict TB and RTwoP I wouldn't hesitate. TB all the way. Can you be more specific about your criticisms of RTwAP? Or at least point me to a thread where you made your case against it? It doesn't seem kludgy to me at all. It seems like it is just giving people more options and a larger variety of play.

Section8 said:
We're back to agreeing. Almost. I'd argue that the technical quality of graphics has sweet fuck all to do with immersion. A fireball in doom is something like a 16x16 pixel bitmap in 8-bit colour, and you better believe I still physically duck and dodge in my chair as they fly past me. The graphical component of immersion is not about impressing the player with plastic, bump mapped Mattel horsehit, it's simply about avoiding anything the player's mind will subconsciously reject.
I recently downloaded some emulators and tried to play some of my favorite games from the early to mid 80s. Choplifter, Archon, Castle Wolfenstein, Crush Crumble and Chomp. I even tried playing Wizard and the Princess and Cranston Manor. They were considered great games at the time (except for the adventure games), but try going back and playing them now. It's pretty hard to do. It sounds like you are arguing that some level of graphics are essentially 'good enough', but I can't agree with that. Maybe once we reach true photorealism with a full stereo perspective. And even then, newer display technologies may improve. I mean would you rather knock down buildings and destroy whole cities as a little 2D blob on the screen with 3 little pixels representing the humans you step on, or would you rather step into a holodeck program or plug an eXistenZ style game into a bioport in your back and really live it? Which would be more exciting. C'mon. Immersion makes a difference. This is the most extreme example I could come up with of course. The difference between a Might and Magic 8 and Oblivion is not nearly so big, but more immersion is still better.

Section8 said:
I get the original intent behind the word, but I'm not naive enough to think it means anything other than "I like this game" or even "I'm led to believe I like this game."
We're just talking about communication here. There does need to be a symbol which denotes the concept of feeling like you are there. Is there a better word that I am overlooking? The original idea behind the word deserves a place in the gamer lexicon. Just because lots of asshole marketing droids like to use a word when they have no business doing so, doesn't invalidate that.

Section8 said:
What constitutes "good" graphics though?
Realism. The closer the character models and scenery are to seeming like they are real and right there in the room with you, the better the graphics. What we need first and foremost are far more detailed character models and more realistic rendering methods (like R/T raytracing). Ever see those dinosaur shows on the discovery channel? Fuck. It blew me away the first time I saw that. They looked <i>so</i> real. I could almost believe I was watching a documentary. The mottled, wrinkled skin, the fluid, convincing movements. We should be aiming for that sort of realism in computer games as well. Don't misunderstand me. I am not arguing that a good game <i>requires</i> realism. Not at all. But it is hard to imagine a scenario where it is bad. Except maybe turning off the 'safety' switch for the holodeck. hehe. But even that could make it more exciting. Knowing that you could really die.

Section8 said:
To the uninitiated, it would be reasonable to assume that a fuckload of bloom, exagerration of all features, and lots of shiny colourful stuff increase the quality of graphics.
I don't believe that would be reasonable for anyone to assume. Good graphics are only good insofar as they are better at tricking your visual cortex into believing that what it is 'seeing' is the real thing. Right there. In front of you. Like a hallucination.

Section8 said:
I've seen hundreds, maybe thousands, sacrificed on the altar of what a developer thinks (or wants us to think) immersion is, and I've seen a promising industry ground into the fucking dirt by stupefying budgets that nobody wants to take a risk on.
Okay. Fair enough. But I think you are mostly talking about graphics here. Not character AI, dialogue, sound effects, world simulation, or story, all of which can lead to greater immersion. As far as graphics go, developers tend to spend 99% of their budgets on them to the exclusion of all else. Back in the early 80s when graphics were still very limited, I suppose this wasn't the case. More time was probably spent on the rest of the game design. I am also tired of what amounts to a graphics engine demo being released as a 'game'.

Section8 said:
I don't think the graphics are likely to affect the immersion by any means other than the player's willingness to be immersed.
I don't think immersion has anything to do with the 'willingness' of the player. If I hadn't played the Underworlds at the time, I think I would be having the same problem. And I am quite 'willing' to be immersed. Playing a game with bad graphics is like reading a novel by a bad writer or watching a film on a badly copied VHS tape compared to watching it played back with a film projector onto a large screen in the cinema. Actually the difference can be even greater. I'm not saying that graphics are the most important aspect of a game. Just that they do make a difference. And they do make a more immersive game all other things being equal. If you want to point out that all other things are <i>never</i> equal, fine, but that's a separate point. It doesn't invalidate the concept of immersion or the value of it.
 

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