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Protos property adjustments

Severian Silk

Guest
How are hit points in ToEE calculated for monsters and characters with classes? They seem to be an explicit number for characters with classes, but are expressed in text strings like 20d4+80 (Balor Guardian) for monsters.

Also, where does the +80 above come from? The Balor Guardian in ToEE has a Constitution of 31, so the Con modifier should be 10, right? The Balor is level 20, so 20 * 10 should be +200 hit point bonus, not +80.
 
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Sitra Achara

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From my notes on protos: (also attached; based on Kalshane's investigations)

NPC Hit Dice: The base hit dice of the monster, *** without bonuses for Constitution, feats or class levels ***. These values will be added by the game engine. For boss-monsters and other special cases, it is permissible to insure good rolls by reducing the size of the individual hit die and changing it into bonus hit points. For example, the Hezrou Guardian has its Hit Dice listed as 15d4+60 instead of 15d8 to insure he gets at least a “5” on each die.

You'll also note it's d4 instead of d8 in the Co8 mod, so that approach was taken for the Balor too. The CON bonus comes on top of that for an average of 370 with a tighter distribution.

Also hope you don't mind, I've generalized the thread topic and stickied.
 

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Severian Silk

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Okay thanks. So I can just ignore the Constitution bonus?
 

Sitra Achara

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Yes

Edit: to be precise, when you copy from the SRD, you should first subtract the CON bonus.
 
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Severian Silk

Guest
Next question: if I were to level up the Balor Guardian by 2 levels, how would I calculate the hit points?

Is 22d4+88 correct?

[edit]

Also, what happens when it is +88.67 or some fraction? Round up or down?
 
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Sitra Achara

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Yes, basically Kalshane chose to convert 1d8 into 1d4+4, so 22* (1d4+4) = 22d4+88.

I don't think fractions are supported by the engine in this case, so you should round it. I'd round it up just to be on the safe side.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I'm looking at Eddie, the herdsman's son. His monster dice are 1d4. Shouldn't all humanoids be 1d8 by default if they have no classes?
 

Sitra Achara

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Not sure, but I think they're supposed to be level-0 peasants or something like that, which is reflected by that.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Eddie is not level-0.

But there are some level-0 characters and I was wondering what I should do with them. Give them critter levels like Eddie, or assign them a class?

Also, there are some characters with critter levels *and* classes. But I think I will advance the class in this case.
 

Sitra Achara

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Nope, Eddie has no class levels (talking about proto 14106), at least in the Co8 file.

IIRC the level-0 characters were made that way on purpose, because that's what the RAW say or something like that (perhaps in lieu of a 'Commoner class' or sthg). At any rate that's what the Co8 rules lawyer (Kalshane) decided and I think that's enough - I'd prefer attention be focused on things that have greater impact.

As for critters with both CL & Monster HD, from what I know D&D generally allows you to advance character levels, but sometimes there are also specifications for size / HD increases etc. Something to keep in mind.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Character Level: The total number of class levels you
have in all your classes, plus any racial Hit Dice you have.

character level = class levels + monster/racial hit die

ECL = character level + level adjustment

What I want to know is how should I upgrade these characters using my tool?

Also, could you upload a copy of the Co8 protos file for me? I am still going by the vanilla.
 
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Sitra Achara

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I think the simplest thing to do is to just bump their HD if they have no Class Levels, and use this as reference for skills and such.
I guess it's also possible to create the NPC classes in TemplePlus but that seems like a waste of time to me. Although maybe once we get new classes going it'll be relatively simple, we'll see.

Attached Co8 protos.
 

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Severian Silk

Guest
Have any of the fields changed in the Co8 protos?
 

Sitra Achara

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As in field definitions/type? No.
Needless to say the values received a thorough overhaul...
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I just started looking at Co8's protos. Any idea why Saduj was changed from a human into a giant? Was he a giant in the original PnP campaign?
 

Sitra Achara

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Saduj?? What version are you using? I think that was strictly an easter egg NPC for an early version of the mod (in the Desperate Housewives optional mod....)
 

Sitra Achara

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Definitely not. Proto 14689 hadn't even existed in the protos file until Co8 v4.0. Are you using the Polish version? One of those releases is bundled with modded files. (well, so is GoG actually, but to a lesser extent)
 

Severian Silk

Guest
I'm looking at St. Cuthbert. He seems to have way too many skills for his level when compared to RAW. His character level is 60, so the max number of skill points he should be able to apply to a class skill is character level + 3, or 63. Non-class skills are half that. Yet he has 92 points in Listen, 84 points in Search, 164 points in Sense Motive, and so on.

Also, the total number of skill points seem way off. In protos he has 765 skill points, but by my calculations he should only have 316 (164 monster skill points + 88 class skill points + 64 race skill points).

What should we do about him?
 
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Sitra Achara

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I wouldn't bother with any non-joinable NPC skills, except for things that might actually have an impact like Concentration.

Also, I think Cuthbert was statted according to a D&D supplement for 3rd Ed, and it might be that some things were approximated in ToEE terms (like the class levels). Also I recall that non-class skills are halved in the engine, though I don't know for sure. Again, I always found it very inconsequential.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
All the "ignore this"s and "ignore that"s kind of kill my interest in continuing the project. If some characters are RAW then all characters should be RAW, I think.
 

Sitra Achara

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If it's important for you then go for it!

You can get Cuthbert's exact stats in Deities and Demigods 3.5E.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Bugs

Proto ID #14643, #14735: "Disable Devise" should be "Disable Device".
Proto ID #14579: "mc_type_beast" should be "mc_type_magical_beast".
Proto ID #14811: huge monster hit dice!

Not sure if these have been fixed yet. I am using the latest public release of the Co8 mod AFAIK.
 
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