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RTwP is the Same as TB the Only Difference Being You Pick The T

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by RaptorRex888, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. BING XI LAO Savant

    BING XI LAO
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    Keep pretending it isn't a massive pain in the ass which is why no-one does it.
     
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  2. Strange Fellow Magister Patron

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    Sounds like there are a lot of turn-based CRPGs you haven't played. I already mentioned the Temple of Baa, which is an extreme example in a game filled to the brim with trashmobs, but is nonetheless fun and not too slow to resolve at all. Then you have Gold Box, which can handle two dozen+ enemies no problem, although it does get tiresome if these fights occur in quick succession because surprise surprise, encounter design consisting of endless hordes of trashmobs isn't entertaining in any system.
     
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  3. BING XI LAO Savant

    BING XI LAO
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    That's because.... it isn't their turn yet :happytrollboy:

    Autistic shitposting aiside thanks for the recommendations
     
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  4. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    Ok let's go

    Except it can, and when appropriate large battles can be cool. All I said is "trash mob encounters for the sake of trash mob encounters are shit" because you went all "oooh a whole dozen wow so very much" at the example I brought of an actual encounter my DM provided in one of her sessions. Well duh, this was the perfect number of enemies for that particular encounter. I just used it to illustrate that certain simple and effective methods exist to make combat with many units in TB quick and not a drag. Yes, combat with more units can also be done well in TB. Up to 100 units even. Just play a good turn-based strategy game as an example. These exist. Try Battle Isle, maybe, those tend to have huge unit numbers. Thing is, these kinds of mass encounters have to be done well or they'll end up as a slog rather than fun, regardless of whether your game is RT or TB.

    In an RPG, you play as a group of adventurers or a single adventurer. Party size is usually between 1 and 6, sometimes up to 8. If you have your 8 characters face off against 100 enemies, you need to design the enemies in such a way that they become threatening without being overwhelming, which is tough to design when it comes to such huge numbers. It's simply a question of practicality. If you make the individual units too weak, it will be a slog where you slay one enemy after the other while they chip away at your hitpoints. If you make the individual units too strong, it will be an unbeatable encounter. Although it would be legitimate to have a scenario where the player has to escape from an overwhelming horde before his characters die, sure. That could be cool.

    Thing is, in RPGs the player controls between 1 and 8 characters, and you're supposed to keep your entire party alive throughout all the encounters. In strategy games, both TB and RT, you're supposed to lose some of your own units, too. When you send 100 guys vs the enemy's 100 guys the balance is very different to your 8 guys facing off against 100 enemy guys.

    Then, of course, there is the issue of control. You say "moving groups of enemy units as if they were single units" is a workaround. It's not a workaround, it's a sensible decision for controlling larger amounts of units without it becoming a clusterfuck. It is also a thing in real time games.
    Look at Total War and how you control formations of soldiers, rather than every single soldier separately. In Age of Empires 2, you can group units with hotkeys to more easily control them, and you can control up to 40 units at a time. In Cossacks, an RTS with very huge numbers of soldiers on the field, you can form your soldiers into formations to more easily control them. Grouping units like that isn't a workaround, it's a necessity when unit numbers reach a certain size, in both RT and TB. It's just a matter of practicality. Compare something like Age of Empires, where units only have simple ranged or melee attacks and micromanaging them is all about maneuvering them and focusing on targets, to Warcraft 3 where every unit has special abilities and you micromanage most of your units individually. Warcraft 3 has a much smaller population cap compared to Age of Empires 2, because it's more focused on the microing of single units, while AoE is more focused on the macro of building larger armies and performing tactical maneuvers with larger bodies of units.

    RPGs are all about micromanaging a small group of units where each individual unit has a range of special abilities to choose from. The very concept is made for low to mid size battles, rather than huge 1000+ unit battles. It doesn't mean that large battles aren't possible, it just means they are for the most part impractical and should be the exception in most RPGs, regardless of whether they're TB or RT. It has nothing to do with RT vs TB, it's just a pure issue of scale.

    Again, nobody said TB is incapable of large combats. I can point you to several TB strategies again. Panzer General. Fantasy General. Steel Panthers. Heck, there are even tabletop wargames with hundreds of units on the field.
    Did you ever hear about a thing called Warhammer? I heard it's pretty popular.
    [​IMG]

    Or maybe one of those many historical tabletop wargames that exist.
    Whoa look at those unit sizes shit must be unmanageable:
    [​IMG]

    How do people play this it must be impossible?????
    [​IMG]


    I have over 500 hours on Age of Empires 2 in Steam and my ELO is in the mid-1700s, which means I'm a halfway competent player. Your argument is invalid.

    RTwP is a clusterfuck because it marries turn based concepts (rounds) into real time gameplay, which creates a horrible abomination that doesn't play very well. Instead they should just go with a proper real time system that doesn't measure actions in """rounds""" and add a pause function. You know, like the Total War games do, except on a smaller scale.

    I don't hate real time I just hate RTwP the way it's usually done.
     
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  5. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    the idea that TB is inherently slow is false, the problem stems from overly long animations and time spent showing things that don't matter(e.g., unit running from point A to B)
    it's why one of the most popular xcom mods is a mod that shortens & removes animations.
     
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  6. BING XI LAO Savant

    BING XI LAO
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    What you illustrated is that at 14 enemies the GM was already fudging the rules to make it less of a pain in the arse. Sure, it's a sensible workaround that like you say isn't really any different from group selection in an RTS. But even the fact that 14 is considered large and led to a fudge for it is hardly an argument that P&P isn't badly suited to doing large encounters.

    And if there's an endgame fight that happens in a palace with numerous troops on both sides? If your party has summoning spells? If the enemy has summoning spells? Just because these situations are rare doesn't mean there is no gain from RTWP being able to handle them at the same pace it handles everything, while TB gets bogged down. How does it have nothing to do with RT vs TB when RT handles it automatically at the same pace it handles anything, while with TB it's conditional on the game being designed with that large a fight in mind?

    I haven't played Panzer General etc, but those tabletop games.... Imagine paying out of the ass and putting in all the effort of learning the rulebook and setting things out properly, just to have an inferior experience to what any good RTS can provide in a tenth the time.
    From what I've seen - yes, those games are shit and unmanageable and I would never play them. As far as I can tell people play them because they have serious mental issues.

    Steam AoE2 is the most casual community for aoe2, and the default ELO for a new account is 1600. It's been a while since I played but IIRC you gain 30 points for a 1v1 victory. mid-1700s means you can keep your TC constantly running and you know what the unit counters are, and you can eventually boom given enough time. Halfway competent is pushing it, but in any case, you weren't the one trashtalking RTS games.

    I've never noticed rounds when playing, say, the IE games. What does this mean?

    I don't hate TB, I am having a blast in Avernum which has huge amounts of filler combat with summon spam (and, mercifully, quick animations). I just don't grasp what TB has to offer RTWP, and there are some cases where TB as it's usually done in RPGs - I'm sure Panzer General etc have a better system - is extremely slow and frustrating.
     
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  7. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Similarly, I can play RTwP games, in fact I can pretty much guarantee by how clueless you are in general that I play them better.
    However, I just think they're a mess and would be better in TB. But hey, I guess you're right because hurr

    Yep, exactly, because... hurrr

    Can't possibly be a different experience. It's just worse because... hurr
     
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  8. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

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    Does it get bogged down though? Oftentimes you don't control summoned units, in which case you could apply the same "display movements and attacks simulataneously if a group of allied units has initiative right next to each other" principle ToEE uses to speed up its combat. If you do control them yourself, you can either do direct control for every action which, yes, in the case of a hundred summons might get a bit tedious. Unless you add simple hotkeys like Steel Panthers does, where just clicking F makes your selected unit fire at its last selected target. Or you can give automated orders for summoned units like "attack this enemy until he's dead", which removes the need of clicking attack for that unit every single turn. These are simple interface workarounds that remove the tedium from managing a large amount of units and can make the experience almost as fast as a real time game.

    Though I do grant you that battles of a larger scale benefit from RT's ability to queue-select groups of units and command them very easily and conveniently.

    It is in the IE games but they don't suffer from it as much as, say, NWN does, or Dragon Age to a lesser extent. Really, the worst offender is NWN because of how tediously it slows everything down.
    It means that the game counts "rounds" in which actions occur. Say one round is 5 seconds. That means if your character has 1 action per round, as is usual in D&D, you'd attack once every 5 seconds. There is no variation in weapon speeds etc because every action takes 1 round. This kinda defeats the idea of real time systems where you're not bound by artificial representations of time like rounds. You can just do a proper real time game like 7.62 High Calibre, with a pause function. But a lot of RTwP games are in the tradition of the IE games/Bioware games in general, so they emulate that whole "round" concept.
     
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  9. BING XI LAO Savant

    BING XI LAO
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    Basically all RPGs are easy because you can reload, pause etc whenever you want. For an actually challenging strategic or tactical experience, you need to be playing against another human.
    Pretty sure that anyone who thinks 'RTSs are just about having 400 APM' is a massive casual that shits the bed when they're playing against anything cleverer than an AI script from 1996.
     
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  10. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    I do wonder that. How do they decide how many dudes had died in the skirmish? Also i do hope it is TB because it will have nothing in common with a real battle,after they are made represent real battles. It will be more logical if do phased based. You have moving phase where everyone is free to move all its units to its capability,maybe have the ability to put units in reserve mode where they get a moving point during the attack phase but not a chance to attack. Also an attack phase where everyone writes their targets and kind off do simultaneous die damage,like in a real battle.
     
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  11. Shadowfang Arcane

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    It's harder to do ambushes in TB and that could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your expectations. Mines also work differently if you don't group up enemy turns in just one. You can blow up several enemies with a well placed mind in RT but probably only one in RTWP.

    I prefer TB and I can't recall a RTWP with good combat. The kiting has to be the worst. Having your warrior running away in circles while your ranger and mage shoot at it is not exactly what I think of tactical combat.
     
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  12. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Is subjective,maybe you are just bad at it.

    Is a choice,if you had ended up using it just means that you not very good at the combat. It is like saying that quick loading every turn you get too much damage or miss is a TB flaw. Any game mechanic could used in cheap way,after all we are fucking humans and do have brains.
     
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  13. Squadcar Learned

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    Yeah, it's not like we don't exploit every system we see. We will find out the best builds, the best way to do things. Save scumming, kiting, glitches, min/maxing, OP builds, etc. Wasn't even strafe jumping in Quake a glitch that was not intended? That could be an example even.
     
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  14. Shadowfang Arcane

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    RTWP games are usually easy and not very deep. I enjoy games regardless of my performance. Actually thats a lie. I like sucking at the game because i enjoy the work of getting better at it.
    As a kid i liked RTWP more so i played a lot of them and looking back the combat sucks. IWD sucks, BG sucks, Kotor sucks, NWN sucks, even if i can take enjoyment out of them, which i did, i can still say it sucks. Saying oh no its good you are just bad its a crappy argument.

    About kiting, its more a flaw of the AI than it is of the RTWP, but we can say the same about every single flaw.
    I have yet to finish SiTS and i was enjoying its RTWP gameplay. I guess because its not a quick keys feast, which i don't mind. I mean how could i? I have all the time in the world to do it.
    The complexity of RTWP D&D games gives a lot to desire specially when compared to TOEE. While i consider TOEE to be mechanically work of art i can barely power through it because of how boring it is. It has nothing to do with combat though.

    But compare TOEE complexity with the other inferior RTWP D&D variants. They are so shallow that crab couldn't hide under them.
     
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  15. infidel Arcane Developer

    infidel
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    If you think about it a bit, even StarCraft has unit grouping for orders. Precisely because nobody except you wants to control them one by one. Also you've failed to notice that the solutions are not tied to RT/TB/RTwP argument. Grouping characters into units and units into armies is just common sense and has been a staple of game design forever. As others have already said, the problem of mass-scale combat is not in the chosen game time flow but in the uniqueness of its individual participants.

    Here's a not-so-contrived D&D combat example. On one side you have 10 mages, 2 of them can cast fireball, 4 are weaker and can only do magic missile (while two of these already spent their spells and now can only use wands, one has a wand of let's say ghoul touch, the other has a wand of sleep), 3 are specializing in different illusions and the last one has arthritis and rheumatism but has to be protected for quest reasons while he opens up a portal or w/e. They are covered by 5 fighters of variying levels, hp and equipment. And these measly 15 individuals are fighting... who cares, that's already enough. I think it'll be a slog in any case but tell me how RTwP is clearly superior than TB in that scenario since D&D mages are not all about that auto-attack order that you rely on so much in RTwP/RT flow.
     
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  16. BING XI LAO Savant

    BING XI LAO
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    Disclaimer; I've been exaggerating my views until now because I am mad at the bigotry, hatred and bullying that RTWP zoomers like myself suffer at the hands of mean, old TB boomers. It's not nice :( And I wanted to have a spergout.
    I do prefer RTWP, but not by that much.
    If I group 12 dragoons together in Starcraft they are still modelled as individuals, it's simply they are now receiving duplicate commands; you can also give them individual order or reassign groupings at will. I think that's a UI element, more than a mechanic. Is a TB/P&P grouping similarly a mere UI convenience, or do they start sharing properties such as initiative?
    1.) If I want to move one mage somewhere but another guy is standing in their way, I can tell them both to move. And in general if I see something going on and I want my guys to react, I can just do it, I don't have to wait, or keep track of who acts before or after other people. For example if there's a poison effect on someone, it's obvious when it ticks, because it does so every X seconds. In Turnbased, in order to know if I should use the curing potion or if I can afford to wait for the priest to cast a spell before it ticks next, I either have to keep track of when things happen or there has to be a powerful UI that makes it clear. The way TB wrangles everything though its sequential mechanism can be quite irritating.
    2.) There's still 5 fighters with the very desirable autoattack property.
    3.) Autoattack isn't the only RTWP convenience; 'spell completed' is another favourite. The idea of cycling through 10 mages in TB is a daunting prospect; that's why you call it a slog. But in RTWP? I issue 10 orders, then hit unpause and watch the fireballs bloom, and the game pauses only when it's time to issue a command, which I keep doing. My zoomer blood is pumping at the FUN FUN FUN to be had there. If only RTWP would work in multiplayer games. Maybe it actually could if it was limited to autopause.

    Now that I'm no longer intentionally shitposting, I will say this; the sequential 'clunkiness' of TB also lends actions more meaning. Some people complain that in TB if it's not your turn you can't immediately move back when people run at you; instead you stand there like an idiot. But not being able to do that means you have to anticipate enemy actions and plan ahead more, which makes that RTWP complaint look dumb and casual. In RTWP things are continuous, in TB they are discrete. Continuous is to my taste, possibly because I played RTS games as a young child before I would've even understood wtf is going on in an rpg, but I can see the appeal of discrete actions too. Deciding whether to move 3 or 4 hexes is an explicit choice, but in BG you have a choice between ''moving a bit'' and ''moving a bit more''. That must be part of what people mean when they call RTWP a clusterfuck. Similarly in the poison scenario I thought of above, the potion and the spell take on a lot of meaning, and you have to make a plan, a decision. But in RTWP it's all go, all the time, you can even drink the potion and cast the spell at the same time! Wheee! Fuck, am I persuading myself to prefer TB now?
     
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  17. Lycra Suit Arbiter

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    19 years later and codexers are still butthurt over the success of Baldur's Gate 2
     
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  18. Puteo Learned

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    Yeah, let's just ignore the fact that adding multiple building selection to Starcraft 2, the arch-RTS, was a massively controversial move that RTS fans and pros got super-butthurt over; because somehow that mindless tedium is in fact, 'skill'. Says everything you need to know about RT"S".

    The anti-RTwP flamebait largely comes as revenge for all the gloating and mockery poor, oppressed TBS fans suffered from the RTwP crew back at the beginning of the decade when the Pillows of Eternity kickstarter revealed they would be going with said accursed combat style.

    Now that the high-profile RTwP games from that era have all been failures and the TBS ones achieved middling to massive success; a balancing of the books is in order.
     
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  19. rusty_shackleford Arcane

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    this is a problem with AI, not the game's combat mode
    An intelligent being should be capable of realizing what is happening and seek shelter behind obstacles to prevent it
     
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  20. Zed Duke of Banville Arcane Patron

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    Bioware was decline from the start, and its RTwP system is an abomination. +M
     
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  21. Lycra Suit Arbiter

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    It was fun and with mods probably more challenging than 90% of older tb games out there.
     
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  22. Viata Arcane

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    This whole thread is about how some people don't know the difference between phase-based and turn-based.
     
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  23. cloudropis Novice

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    Newishfag question:
    If people think the round system from tabletop translates poorly in RtwP (and I wholeheartedly agree, for the record), then why did everyone shit on PoE with its individual character action bar?
     
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  24. Riddler Augur Patron

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    Bubbles In Memoria
    TB games are usually easy and not very deep as well. Anyone who thinks any of the even slightly popular Tb games are difficult or deep has severe brain damage.

    Also, kiting is prevalent in competitive RTSs as well. What did the recent Deepmind AI that beat pros do in StarCraft 2? It kited. This has very little to do with bad AI.
     
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  25. BING XI LAO Savant

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    That's true, I hate those ''muh mechanical '''''skill''''' '' fags
     
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