Excidium
P. banal
The aesthetics are so lame, though.
Yes, holy shit. Do I hate those retarded angles to play a tactical game. It's cool only during attacks if the animations are nice.
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KickStarter Warmachine: Tactics
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
I rather like the Steampunk Soviets.
My Miniatures days are over (donated my eldar, tyranid, IG, dwarves and orks to the gaming clubs I frequented). But if I were to pick up a minis game today, I'd be getting into WarmaHordes, no contest.
Excidium
P. banal
Well at least that the minis are shaped like human beings.
FeelTheRads
Arcane
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2008
- Messages
- 13,716
Like, say, people who like old-school RPGs instead of the "tighter" modern ones?
Serious question, I have never actually played a miniature wargame, only read rulebooks. Seems like I would prefer those with lots of units, formations and shit though, like the historical stuff or at least Warhammer Fantasy.
How/why is everything else other than Warmachine a dying breed?
The main problem with fantasy is that you don't really have much in the way of strategy. You're basically lining up your units on opposite ends of the table, then throwing buckets of die (20-40 per round of attacks is not unusual) to see which of the two regiiments eventually breaks and dies. Nearly all of the "strategy" in warhammer happens when you're building your army list and before you even meet your opponent. In fact, it's not unusual to see your 20-man regiment get charged, lose a round of combat, fail a break test and be removed from the game entirely in the same turn. In WarmaHordes, your multi-HP unit will most likely be good for 3-4 turns where your warcaster can allocate focus to it or other units can use special abilities to aid it. It'll probably end up taking enough damage to lose access to some of its abilities regardless, but the win/lose state is not nearly as binary. Where Warhammer is about designing the cheesiest army list and more or less being decided after unit deployment, WarmaHordes actually sees players redistributing limited resources in the form of Focus and abilities every round to determine the outcome of individual fights.
There are a bunch of game stores and clubs in the area where I live. Pretty much all of them are flipping from mostly Warhammer/MTG on their game nights to Warmachine/MTG with a small amount of Warhammer going on. The chief thing to remember is that potential new players of tabletop games are going to be faced with the choice of paying ~150 for a Warmachine army or ~500 for a Warhammer one.
If you really want to read into the difference between the two, there are plenty of articles on "40k vs warmachine" out there on the net.
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
And it also bears mention that the various units are generally far more radically different in Warmachine, and a lot of them have ACTUAL formations and formation rules instead of just "box block" "skirmisher" and "bretonnian cavalry". Just the commander variation among Warcasters and Warlocks is immense compared to WH, even without getting into Theme Force rules (one of my favourite things they've done with the game). Epic version of Coleman Stryker and someone like Orsus Zoktavir (the big bald guy in the promo image) play immensily different, and these are two of the more straightforward fighty types. Then you get into guys like Nemo. My favourite example of a guy with crazy unique special rules is that one Protectorate warcaster who can crucify his defeated enemy models on the spot.
One notable example of the variety in rules regarding units is that in Warmachine the standard formation for a model unit is not decided by proximity to the nearest model, but proximity to unit leader model (distance based on their Command value). This in turn can lead to Bad Shit (tm) if you don't balance out your unit's formation well because a model outside of the command zone. This is also applied to your Warcaster and his Warjacks, who operate on a larger Control Zone based on the Warcaster's Focus. Models inside units are also treated as individual models for most purposes, so you can't try to use standard Warhammer crap like lockdown charges as readily.
The more detailed focus on individual combatants in all situations has numerous other more indepth applications as well. One might notice that beyond just the freeflowing movement in melee, Warjacks have a set of standard special tricks they can do. A good example is that while a combat between two heavy units in WH becomes a whack-a-mole contest where one lives and one dies, in Warmachine it can end with a radically different manner: Said Warjacks might start throwing each other around. In fact, throwing can be very advantageous when you are near water, since a knocked down Warjack is shut down by water and needs to be restarted.
tl;dr: Warmachine being tighter in terms of rules = It's better balanced (everything is overpowered in Warmachine, so actually nothing is), more in-depth, more tactical, more freedom, more options, -> better stronger faster.
EDIT: Also another thing to note regarding the whole price thing is that so far you're a LOT less likely to be fucked over by fundamental rule and game focus changes that require you to spend hundreds of dollars "correcting" your armies (ie, the retarded horde unit rules, magic dice fuckery and charge nerfs to WHFB in last edition change).
One notable example of the variety in rules regarding units is that in Warmachine the standard formation for a model unit is not decided by proximity to the nearest model, but proximity to unit leader model (distance based on their Command value). This in turn can lead to Bad Shit (tm) if you don't balance out your unit's formation well because a model outside of the command zone. This is also applied to your Warcaster and his Warjacks, who operate on a larger Control Zone based on the Warcaster's Focus. Models inside units are also treated as individual models for most purposes, so you can't try to use standard Warhammer crap like lockdown charges as readily.
The more detailed focus on individual combatants in all situations has numerous other more indepth applications as well. One might notice that beyond just the freeflowing movement in melee, Warjacks have a set of standard special tricks they can do. A good example is that while a combat between two heavy units in WH becomes a whack-a-mole contest where one lives and one dies, in Warmachine it can end with a radically different manner: Said Warjacks might start throwing each other around. In fact, throwing can be very advantageous when you are near water, since a knocked down Warjack is shut down by water and needs to be restarted.
tl;dr: Warmachine being tighter in terms of rules = It's better balanced (everything is overpowered in Warmachine, so actually nothing is), more in-depth, more tactical, more freedom, more options, -> better stronger faster.
EDIT: Also another thing to note regarding the whole price thing is that so far you're a LOT less likely to be fucked over by fundamental rule and game focus changes that require you to spend hundreds of dollars "correcting" your armies (ie, the retarded horde unit rules, magic dice fuckery and charge nerfs to WHFB in last edition change).
fizzelopeguss
Arcane
Warmachine is shit, it's a dime a dozen skirmish game with visuals pulled from beelzebubs arse, hordes is slightly more interesting. As it is though these games garner a loud, vocal minority who are butthurt over GW's antics, then move on to the next indie FOTM when the inevitable price hikes arise.
And lol at warhammer dying, warhammer and GW are like pc gaming, they've been dying for the last 25 years.
And lol at warhammer dying, warhammer and GW are like pc gaming, they've been dying for the last 25 years.
Excidium
P. banal
Nice so it can be dumb in addition to being ugly now
Who the fuck plays a strategy game with a controller? it isn't even on consoles.
Who the fuck plays a strategy game with a controller? it isn't even on consoles.
tuluse
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2008
- Messages
- 11,400
fixed
Excidium
P. banal
I hate those vague statements, I mean do they think that gives anyone confidence? For all we know it's a guy who did animation work for Fallout 3 or something equally bad.
Does it matter? You can see the animations right now.
Excidium
P. banal
It's just an example
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 97,491
The paludrons of the Great Bears of Gallowswood look somewhat impractical...
Warhammer 40K is not much more tactical than Warhammer, as everyone almost starts in range, the battlefield feels cramped, and maneuvering is somewhat non existent . I think the problem is not the timeline, but the scale : Both Space Marines (now epic : Armageddon) and Warmaster feel more tactical imo. I played epic to death, but WH40K not so much though so maybe it was our lack of experience, but the skirmish games felt very bland compared to the battalion level Epic : 40K. Unfortunately, it didn't sell as much, as it didn't feature cool detailed hero minis.
Warhammer 40K is not much more tactical than Warhammer, as everyone almost starts in range, the battlefield feels cramped, and maneuvering is somewhat non existent . I think the problem is not the timeline, but the scale : Both Space Marines (now epic : Armageddon) and Warmaster feel more tactical imo. I played epic to death, but WH40K not so much though so maybe it was our lack of experience, but the skirmish games felt very bland compared to the battalion level Epic : 40K. Unfortunately, it didn't sell as much, as it didn't feature cool detailed hero minis.
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
I quit 40k several years before WHFB because it was just a plain shit game through and through. There was never any substance to it.
At the very least, WHFB had movement rules that made mobility have more depth to it, stronger emphasis on mobility thanks to the powerful effects of a charge, focus on breaking the opposing unit through morale, and a fairly strategic magic system. You still needed a big fucking table with good terrain tho (yours truly specialized in having lots of modular terrain, from hills to rivers to buildings to woods; most of the stuff I had was generic so it could be recycled anywhere, now serving a Warmachine function)
Then the new edition shat on all of that and made it rock-em-sock-em megablocks.
At the very least, WHFB had movement rules that made mobility have more depth to it, stronger emphasis on mobility thanks to the powerful effects of a charge, focus on breaking the opposing unit through morale, and a fairly strategic magic system. You still needed a big fucking table with good terrain tho (yours truly specialized in having lots of modular terrain, from hills to rivers to buildings to woods; most of the stuff I had was generic so it could be recycled anywhere, now serving a Warmachine function)
Then the new edition shat on all of that and made it rock-em-sock-em megablocks.
Kickstarters talking about DLC isn't anything new though. The unwashed masses practically demand it these days. I haven't pledged yet though. I'm waiting on the Kodex Kritikal Kuestions to be answered in the interview Whisky is doing
Vaarna_Aarne
Notorious Internet Vandal
Actually since the Warmachine setting draws heavily from World War 1 (with a hint of WW2 thrown in, like kinda-Poland/Belgium getting surprise invaded by Khador as the opening act of the war), Khador is more like a pervert fusion of Imperial Russia and Imperial Germany with a Red Army aesthetic.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
- Messages
- 8,020
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