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What's an RPG? - the search for clue continues!

Atrokkus

Erudite
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
Stats are essential to an RPG. I tried to argue that, I tried to put an alternative, but there is none. There is a way to make stat-system irrelevant for a player, tho - a game with fixed protagonist, but still he must evolve in the process of the game, so stats still play a part, or they should, at least.

Basically, you can even play yourself in the game: taht is, if the game was set in realistic setting, and preferrably in contemporary times, with adequate skills and attribute sets, you can pretty much "copy" yourself into the game, but then evolve yourself as the game situations dictate.

By the way, the concept which I've been thinking about of late is hiding all the numerical stats from player, but compensate that with very advanced graphic model which gives very detailed visual representation of what your character is, how does he feel and all that. Also, of course, there should be those "sensors", like if you experience pain, the image of your body should indicate which bodypart hurts and how intense the pain is.
The thing is, that the player won't be all obsessed with number-crunching, and it'll probably give a little "realistic" flavor to the game, making your character a little bit of mystery even to the one who controls him. Of course, skills will grow (and possibly diminish) depending on what you do. Get a lot of hard physical work, your strength will be increasing, perform agility-intensive skills, and it would improve the attribute, but that's standart, just has to go through a lot of adjustments, balaance-wise. Also, for insatnce, if you catch some disease, you won't have a huge icon glaring "you're SICK!!!", quite the contrary - you may even confuse the symptoms with those of poisoning or something else, and may even end up dead without knowing the cause... and similar features.
WEll, just my musings...


Damn those dungheads at TES forums are ignorant to the point of being amusing. And to think, they really believe in what they say...
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
Vault Dweller said:
Another gem:

Seriously though, a reasonable char. creator and further customization in-game (which armor you wear for example) makes it an rpg, because there's a choice to make.

Well, making choices IS part of the Codex definition of CRPG...
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Quote:
I don't think there is a dividing line. If it were all stats, it would be an rpg most definately. If it were all skill, it would be an fps (or any other action game) for sure. but when they mix and match things like stats that are based on how well you do things, then it gets fuzzy. I don't really care what Oblivion is, I just want it!

Poor dumb bastard.

You can't really take apart stats and you complitly, tb combat also requaire some of your skill, you can rp idiot by doing someting stupid in fight throught :wink: (you do that?). In gothic it was someting beetwin, from your dex it was depending when you will swing, but haw fast you will swing it was depending of character stats -that also enable to rp if you not turtle fast that is. Yes you don't only use your brain but that is part of the stats also. [gothic fight wasn't so close to fallout fight rp wise (new aspect some of your dex needed) but that aspect wasn't not existed.]
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Sarvis said:
Vault Dweller said:
Another gem:

Seriously though, a reasonable char. creator and further customization in-game (which armor you wear for example) makes it an rpg, because there's a choice to make.

Well, making choices IS part of the Codex definition of CRPG...

Sarvis thats part of your definition, ability to wear difrent close gives you infinite number of combinations, you can wear red thne blue; blue then red; blue, then red, then blue - the posibilites are infite rp lol.
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
The only problem being that I'm not the one who equates choices with being an RPG.

Also, with three colors you only have 6 combinations.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Sarvis said:
Also, with three colors you only have 6 combinations.

3! But that that don;t work when you can use each infinite times througt :? . Plz stop using terms that you don't andersted. (infinity)

The only problem being that I'm not the one who equates choices with being an RPG.

You're the only one who think that there have to be infinite number of choises. And that don't anderstend whot infite mean's (nobady was proving it exept you).
 

bryce777

Erudite
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Messages
4,225
Location
In my country the system operates YOU
copx said:
bryce777 said:
Actually, I can imagine it's doug henning...it's a WORLD OF MAGIC, AND MAGIC MEANS ILLUSIONS!

TES 8 developer interview said:
Let's face it - when you talk about movement in an RPG, you're talking about going forward.

And he added:
This whole "left" and "right" thing is way too complex for the casual gamers we are targetting."

Man, I actually can't believe wha I am reading. Is he that stupid, or is the audience that fucking stupid?
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Sarvis said:
Here's a hint for you:

infinite > 3!

hint for whot moron? 4!>3! so? Pointless read some or never use the terms that you don't understand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#M ... l_infinity

You are saing someting like 2+2=3 so youre wrog, plz stop it is not funny anymore and some ppl can say bulshit about math after reading your throughts.

Hint: math have 10 diferent numbers (0,1,2...) and have in theory infinite number of cmbinations not 10! :? . -you can use each number any time you want/need to.
 

Imbecile

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
1,267
Location
Bristol, England
Guys, I'm spotting a lot of mocking, but not that many answers :P

Its true that a lot of the answers were dumb, in particular the one that said a FPS is an RPG when the guns a sword, but hey, I get to feel like I'm not the densest guy in the class. I like that feeling.

Dont we all ;)
 

Dark Elf

Erudite
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
1,617
Location
Sweden
I like the feeling I get when I realise I know more things I don't know jack about than others.
 

Imbecile

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
1,267
Location
Bristol, England

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
Kraszu said:
Sarvis said:
Here's a hint for you:

infinite > 3!

hint for whot moron? 4!>3! so? Pointless read some or never use the terms that you don't understand:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#M ... l_infinity

You are saing someting like 2+2=3 so youre wrog, plz stop it is not funny anymore and some ppl can say bulshit about math after reading your throughts.

Hint: math have 10 diferent numbers (0,1,2...) and have in theory infinite number of cmbinations not 10! :? . -you can use each number any time you want/need to.

There are not 10 numbers in math, there are 10 DIGITS in math. Infinite numbers, finite digits.

The thing is you were talking about clothes, and the colors of those clothes. There is a finite number of pieces of clothing you can wear, and a finite number of colors you gave. Even then there is a finite area that colors can be in, so even if you wanted to say LOTS of pieces of clothing, where each piece had all THREE colors represented on it there would only be... what is it, 3! * LOTS! combinations.

Still a lot less than infinity.

Oh, and by the way... I always say NEARLY infinite, not actual infinite because that is, of course, impossible.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
There are not 10 numbers in math, there are 10 DIGITS in math. Infinite numbers, finite digits.

My english is not perfect but you got the idea.

The thing is you were talking about clothes, and the colors of those clothes. There is a finite number of pieces of clothing you can wear, and a finite number of colors you gave. Even then there is a finite area that colors can be in, so even if you wanted to say LOTS of pieces of clothing, where each piece had all THREE colors represented on it there would only be... what is it, 3! * LOTS! combinations.


No let me use 3 digits and 3 colors:
123
1231
123=/=1231
green, red, blue
green, red, blue, green

green, red, blue=/=green, red, blue, green - now you get it?

Still a lot less than infinity.

Oh, and by the way... I always say NEARLY infinite, not actual infinite because that is, of course, impossible.

I think that used infinity once, still in theory you got infinity number of combination (you can use any color infinite times)

Nearly infite - can you define nearly infite? It is silly, use term "all posibole options". -i am so good, giving terms for free.

Yu can say that wearing blue is the same as wearing red then change is to blue, but that gives yo infinite gaming posibilites- thats not the point of plaing throught. You plaing somebady who used inventory to wear:
blue then red then blue
or somebady who used inventory to wear:
blue then red then blue then red

Ther are diferent, pointles, but give infinite number.

3! is in prpobility, it is true when you have 3 box and the number of combinations is 6, it is not working whit infnite number of boxes in 3 diferent colors.

Super math exam for you. You got 4 boxes 1red 2blue 1silber and the number of combination is? Think about it. Is it 6?
 

Doppelganger

Novice
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
85
Vault Dweller said:

An especially good read, this one, essay-length posts and all. Where are those guys now? *sigh* Quoting idiot posts from some other forum populated by 13 -year olds really is the lowest brand of humour. This Codex nOOb who remembers (just) playing The Hobbit on the ZX Spectrum appreciated the links, though - thanks.
 

Imbecile

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
1,267
Location
Bristol, England
Doppelganger said:
Vault Dweller said:

An especially good read, this one, essay-length posts and all. Where are those guys now? *sigh* Quoting idiot posts from some other forum populated by 13 -year olds really is the lowest brand of humour. This Codex nOOb who remembers (just) playing The Hobbit on the ZX Spectrum appreciated the links, though - thanks.

Yeah, that first one is good. Much better than the third, which was three pages of "heated debate" about the definition of random :P

Notably there was no real swearing or flaming in that first thread, which was nice after plowing through the other.
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
Kraszu said:
There are not 10 numbers in math, there are 10 DIGITS in math. Infinite numbers, finite digits.

My english is not perfect but you got the idea.

The thing is you were talking about clothes, and the colors of those clothes. There is a finite number of pieces of clothing you can wear, and a finite number of colors you gave. Even then there is a finite area that colors can be in, so even if you wanted to say LOTS of pieces of clothing, where each piece had all THREE colors represented on it there would only be... what is it, 3! * LOTS! combinations.


No let me use 3 digits and 3 colors:
123
1231
123=/=1231
green, red, blue
green, red, blue, green

green, red, blue=/=green, red, blue, green - now you get it?

Still a lot less than infinity.

Oh, and by the way... I always say NEARLY infinite, not actual infinite because that is, of course, impossible.

I think that used infinity once, still in theory you got infinity number of combination (you can use any color infinite times)

Nearly infite - can you define nearly infite? It is silly, use term "all posibole options". -i am so good, giving terms for free.

Yu can say that wearing blue is the same as wearing red then change is to blue, but that gives yo infinite gaming posibilites- thats not the point of plaing throught. You plaing somebady who used inventory to wear:
blue then red then blue
or somebady who used inventory to wear:
blue then red then blue then red

Ther are diferent, pointles, but give infinite number.

3! is in prpobility, it is true when you have 3 box and the number of combinations is 6, it is not working whit infnite number of boxes in 3 diferent colors.

Super math exam for you. You got 4 boxes 1red 2blue 1silber and the number of combination is? Think about it. Is it 6?

Yeah, you're really not helping yourself.

Why?

Well, what you are really doing is making the same choice an infinite number of times. That's never what I was talking about, I was talking about in any single instance where you can choose one option you have a nearly infinite number of options to choose.

There's a difference between that and having 3 things to choose from, and making that choice a number of consecutive times. For instance if I wear red today, green tomorrow and blue the day after I've made three decisions between 3 possible options. If I make that same decision every day until the end of time, I've still only got 3 options.

IF you are trying to say that I can mix those three colors up on any one piece of clothing, however, you are still wrong because there is a limited surface area on any given piece of clothing. So sure, maybe I can have pure red, red+yellow or red+yellow+green, but eventually you run out of space on the shirt to even create different patterns with and you don't reach infinity.

So yeah, come back when you understand what infinity is.
 

TheGreatGodPan

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,762
You can have a stat-less RPG. They use what's called "drama mechanics". They've only been used in pen&paper though. I've started some threads on the possibility of using them for a computer game here.
 

Kraszu

Prophet
Joined
May 27, 2005
Messages
3,253
Location
Poland
Well, what you are really doing is making the same choice an infinite number of times.

No shit. But you make can diferent combination. blue blue red silver =/= blue red silver blue (*), andd infinite blue and yo have infinite diferent options. - thats should be more easy to understund.

Again don't doge:

Super math exam for you. You got 4 boxes 1red 2blue 1silber and the number of combination is? Think about it. Is it 6? -you got hint*

Nearly infite - can you define nearly infite?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Doppelganger said:
An especially good read, this one, essay-length posts and all. Where are those guys now?
Most of them are around, but they don't post every day. It's been awhile since we've seen Rosh who is one of NMA's admins, so you can always find him there.

Quoting idiot posts from some other forum populated by 13 -year olds really is the lowest brand of humour.
It was amusing. Making fun of clueless morons is a time honored tradition here.
 

MINIGUNWIELDER

Scholar
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
604
mEtaLL1x said:
Stats are essential to an RPG. I tried to argue that, I tried to put an alternative, but there is none. There is a way to make stat-system irrelevant for a player, tho - a game with fixed protagonist, but still he must evolve in the process of the game, so stats still play a part, or they should, at least.

Basically, you can even play yourself in the game: taht is, if the game was set in realistic setting, and preferrably in contemporary times, with adequate skills and attribute sets, you can pretty much "copy" yourself into the game, but then evolve yourself as the game situations dictate.

By the way, the concept which I've been thinking about of late is hiding all the numerical stats from player, but compensate that with very advanced graphic model which gives very detailed visual representation of what your character is, how does he feel and all that. Also, of course, there should be those "sensors", like if you experience pain, the image of your body should indicate which bodypart hurts and how intense the pain is.
The thing is, that the player won't be all obsessed with number-crunching, and it'll probably give a little "realistic" flavor to the game, making your character a little bit of mystery even to the one who controls him. Of course, skills will grow (and possibly diminish) depending on what you do. Get a lot of hard physical work, your strength will be increasing, perform agility-intensive skills, and it would improve the attribute, but that's standart, just has to go through a lot of adjustments, balaance-wise. Also, for insatnce, if you catch some disease, you won't have a huge icon glaring "you're SICK!!!", quite the contrary - you may even confuse the symptoms with those of poisoning or something else, and may even end up dead without knowing the cause... and similar features.
WEll, just my musings...


Damn those dungheads at TES forums are ignorant to the point of being amusing. And to think, they really believe in what they say...

i will deliver teh propaganda to the belly of the beast
 

Sarvis

Erudite
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
5,050
Location
Buffalo, NY
Kraszu said:
Well, what you are really doing is making the same choice an infinite number of times.

No shit. But you make can diferent combination. blue blue red silver =/= blue red silver blue (*), andd infinite blue and yo have infinite diferent options. - thats should be more easy to understund.

Again don't doge:

Super math exam for you. You got 4 boxes 1red 2blue 1silber and the number of combination is? Think about it. Is it 6? -you got hint*

Nearly infite - can you define nearly infite?

Are you really this slow?

Let's ahve a quick test:

If you were asked to pick a number between 0 and 9, how many options do you have?
 

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