Why a game like Daggerfall can't be made today.

[Twinfalls]

I bet ZeniMax funds surveys at the local mall:

Surveyor: So, 9-year-old-kid...

LOL!

Actual TES board responses to the poll "Are you glad short and long blades merged, to just blade?"

yes

yes

yes because like now i dont have to train in 2 skills

I'm definitely happy at the merging of weapon skills. In morrowind weapon skills were more of a hassle than anything else, as you diddnt really get much for maxing out the skill. It seemed more like a removal of penalty than anything else.
Likewise, I would often find a weapon that I really wanted to use, but couldnt because I diddnt want to completely fill up my menu with weapon skills.

if you are skilled in longblade then you should also be skilled in other blades because whats the difference? (besides the leangth of the blade)

Yes I'm glad. My Assassin/Thief will get to wield a Daedric Dai-Katana.

DEFINATLEY! what was the point seperating them in the first place?

I don't use swords. But I am glad that it's a neat little feature, so in some ways, yes.

Yes.the people who dont like it because a thieves shouldnt be able to use a claymore even though he uses daggers are stupid.Why?Because they dont have to use the long swords.So it doesnt matter.

I don't really care, anways. Nor do I see the problem, as, while you can carry several different weapons, you can only use one at a time (in Oblivion), and Yes, I DO know about Dual-wielding.

I'm glad they merged those skills.. I want to be able to use both well without having to train each one separately, especially when it comes to enchanted items.

I like it because now if there is an awsome blade I don't have to worry about now having the skill for it.

Yes, because it means you will save money and will be easier to level up

Definitely!!! I hate having to have two good sword skills just to be able to use the weapons i like. Now, I can just pick up a sword and get good with it by using my singular blade skill.

I'm actually glad that they combined the two. Sooner or later, I would have both skills maxed out, so why not save time for me and combine the two? It's a good idea IMO...

it still gonna make a difference, it just works differently than in MW, I'm sure they balanced it out, I don't think we should complain the game looks great, it's great entertainment, our life doesn't depend on a game, it just makes it more fun ... and merging two styles doesn't take away all the fun ... not in a long shot ...

And while there are plenty of 'no, it's dumbing down' responses, the result of the poll? 'Yes' wins by 45 to 24!!

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=171365

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

oh well, fanboy reflexes are as strong there as anti Bethesda reflexes are here. I am not sure if reading both keeps me sane or has the opposite effect...

 

[Chefe]

What a bunch of fucking idiots.

My guess is that 98% of them are Xboxers.

Bethesda, enjoy your new idiotic, ADD-infected pre-teen target market; and also enjoy the fact that you killed what could have become the quintessential RPG universe. Eat shit and die.

 

[Twinfalls]

Steady on there, big fella.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

I've said this before -- Bethesda is a VERY different company from the Daggerfall days. In those days, everything was very much haphazard. That is no longer the case, and hasn't been pretty much since ZeniMax entered the picture in '99.

If by 'haphazard' you mean 'of higher quality,' then yes, I concur.

 

[HardCode]

hehehe Twinfalls. Those quotes are illiteracy at its best. Those kids should spend more time doing homework than playing games anyway.

The quotes can all be summed up into this:

"OMGZ! I cnat uze the 1337-ub3r Sw0rd of All Killing because I wanna uze all wepons and i don kare about roleplaying because I want an AWP in the next TES5 and I wanna snipe the dadreas why cnat I uze @ll weaponz in da game ah time 4 my Ritalin"

 

[Twinfalls]

Indeed.

The TES boards does have some witty chaps on it - check out these mock interface pics someone put up, before Gavin the Geeky Troll came along and closed down the thread:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/ ... rface2.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/ ... rface3.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v444/ ... rface4.gif

from:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=173124

 

[Jed]

Those "interface" screenies are brilliant. Glad to see there's some kindred humor out there in Bethesda land...

 

[LlamaGod]

That is no longer the case, and hasn't been pretty much since ZeniMax entered the picture in '99.

now it's all dumbing down, xbox ports and making teh salezz.

Daggerfall was okay. It had a big world and alot of skills, but my main beef with it is that it was godddamn boring and nothing you did meant shit and the things you could do where incredibly repetitive.

OH NOES A BEAR IN SOMEONES HOUSE, NOW RATS, NOW A BEAR, NOW A BAT, NOW THE FIGHTERS GUILD GUY NEEDS TO RUN TO ANOTHER CITY.

Just do stuff and find better loot and level your character, which is like an action RPG, but very bland and boring.

The only thing that had any bearing was the main quest, which was a giant turd.

 

[Twinfalls]

You're missing the point, Llamagod.

Daggerfall was made in under a year. The writers had much more expansive wishes for the game - regional conflicts, non-wiki dialogue, etc, but didn't have time for it all.

The question Daggerfall raises is why didn't Bethesda expand on all that good stuff for Morrowind, instead of chucking it out. By 'good stuff' I mean skills, guilds, decision making, procedural generation of (at least some) quests, and the idea of a truly vast, living world with emergent gameplay.

That Daggerfall was not the perfect game does not simply negate its relevance. What is relevant is those aspects of Daggerfall which were ahead of its time, and its ambitions compared to Morrowind, and by extension, to Boblivon.

 

[Mandake]

I think one of the major problems of games like Daggerfalls is the complexity developing them. The more features you include the harder it gets to handle all the possible interactions. I afraid, lessons learned was to reduce the complexity to make project planning more predictable.

 

[Chefe]

I afraid, lessons learned was to reduce the complexity to make project planning more predictable.

Creativity isn't predictible. That's why you read all those crazy stories of the gaming companies of yor. They produced the best games. They were creative and innovative.

 

[crufty]

Daggerfall did receive a lot of heat for all the bugs.

 

[war3rd]

[snip]
What I do wonder about though, and mr smileydude didn't comment on this. Does bethesda still have the daggerfall source code? It would be great if they released daggerfall and the sc as freeware. Would be some nice free advertising for the company and it would give mod people the chance to do that much more with the game. Just my 2 cents.

I totally agree, I would love to hear what MSFD has to say about the source code and BethSoft's thought's on releasing it (and if they still have it). I think it's old enough that there's not much they would want to do with it, so why not release it...? Think of the free publicity
And while I loved DF, I don't really think that anyone would not buy Oblivion just because the DF source code is out there, they are different games from different eras and, frankly, we all know what usually happens when source code is released... not much ever comes out of it other that a slew of 'announcements' for remakes that never appear.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

You're missing the point, Llamagod.

Daggerfall was made in under a year. The writers had much more expansive wishes for the game - regional conflicts, non-wiki dialogue, etc, but didn't have time for it all.

The question Daggerfall raises is why didn't Bethesda expand on all that good stuff for Morrowind, instead of chucking it out. By 'good stuff' I mean skills, guilds, decision making, procedural generation of (at least some) quests, and the idea of a truly vast, living world with emergent gameplay.

That Daggerfall was not the perfect game does not simply negate its relevance. What is relevant is those aspects of Daggerfall which were ahead of its time, and its ambitions compared to Morrowind, and by extension, to Boblivon.

You know, the thing is they probably felt they did. And I tend to agree with them overall, so not in every detail.
The world WAS more detailed and more interesting to explore
There were different types of dungeons
There were more weapon choices
The NPC were slightly less cookie cutter, and there were more that had at least some interesting dialogue.
There was more lore
etc.

On another note, it's interesting that they did return to algorithm assisted design to an extent for Oblivion, which for some reason gets dissed as SO1l ERoSHuNNn!!! on this site... Also there is a return to guild privileges, houseowning, horseriding, and the lack of throwing weapons, crossbows and spears - so you get some of that DF stuff back

 

[crpgnut]

I should have made one thing clear in my original post. I loved Morrowind and will probably pre-order Oblivion. I do hate some of the graphics over substance choices that have been made though. I'm not a real big fan of Todd Howard. He is very much like the 9-year old boy that Hardcode parodied. He even SOUNDS like he's 9. Did anyone listen to that high-pitched voice? I really think Fez and Todd should get together sometime :twisted:

Daggerfall was masterful in its character choices, the holidays, all the guilds, the plentiful music tracks, and the writing for the main quest. The random dungeons and random quests were lame. The dungeon design was a good idea, terribly implemented.

Morrowind dropped several character choices, all holidays, lycanthropy, several guilds, had about 12 songs in the whole game, and had a miserably cliche main storyline. Most improvements over Daggerfall were only graphical in nature. Some of the non-main quests in Morrowind were good, but overall the writing was lame.

It's too early to judge where Oblivion will fall. Is stealth really playable? Can a person be a pacifist thief and have an enjoyable experience? Is magic more powerful this time? Are there any magical effects that hit large groups of creatures? Is levitating or flying in the game? Are we really "the chosen one seen in a dream" again? Good Grief!!! Can Ken write a different story other than dreams and prophecy or is he mentally unable to come up with anything else?

I gripe because I really love the gameworld and lore that was created by LeFay and crew. It'd be nice to see that focused on rather than pretty trees, actors, and console combat. Again, just my 2¢.

 

[Twinfalls]

You know, the thing is they probably felt they did. And I tend to agree with them overall, so not in every detail.
The world WAS more detailed and more interesting to explore
There were different types of dungeons
There were more weapon choices
The NPC were slightly less cookie cutter, and there were more that had at least some interesting dialogue.
There was more lore
etc.

Skills? Guilds? Decision making (eg multiple MQ paths, multiple-guild-restrictions)? Huge cities?

THESE were the things about DF which should have been expanded on, not chucked out.

On another note, it's interesting that they did return to algorithm assisted design to an extent for Oblivion, which for some reason gets dissed as SO1l ERoSHuNNn!!! on this site...

No they haven't. They are using procedural generation to create a landscape which is similar in size to Morrowind, only more quickly than by hand-placing. They are not generating stuff on-the-fly, to enable a truly vast game-space, and more importantly, to enable the kind of emergent gameplay possibilities that DF foreshadowed.

Also there is a return to... horseriding...

Is there really? Check this thread out:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=173462

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Crap!
I'd really like to ride my horse wherever I want to. Heck, if freedom is what they seek, they should permit you to enter YOUR house with the horse.

I'm sure you can travel through wilderness with it as there're paths.

So, MSFD, what happens to our horses? Will they be magically added to the stable when we're in town or will we be free to use it wherever we want to?
Also, once entering a dungeon, will it magically go back to the city?
Will we be able to tie it to a log or a tree so that he won't go away?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

You know, the thing is they probably felt they did. And I tend to agree with them overall, so not in every detail.
The world WAS more detailed and more interesting to explore
There were different types of dungeons
There were more weapon choices
The NPC were slightly less cookie cutter, and there were more that had at least some interesting dialogue.
There was more lore
etc.

Skills? Guilds? Decision making (eg multiple MQ paths, multiple-guild-restrictions)? Huge cities?

THESE were the things about DF which should have been expanded on, not chucked out.

On another note, it's interesting that they did return to algorithm assisted design to an extent for Oblivion, which for some reason gets dissed as SO1l ERoSHuNNn!!! on this site...

No they haven't. They are using procedural generation to create a landscape which is similar in size to Morrowind, only more quickly than by hand-placing. They are not generating stuff on-the-fly, to enable a truly vast game-space, and more importantly, to enable the kind of emergent gameplay possibilities that DF foreshadowed.

Also there is a return to... horseriding...

Is there really? Check this thread out:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=173462

I think I mentioned i don't agree with every decision? By the way the decision making was extremely poor in DF, the "multiple endings" a sorry excuse for nonlinearity. so not much to build on there. The guilds were and are improved upon in that they actually convey some sort of stories, a life within the guild, instead of just being quest dipensers. The majority of the skills did not get cut but merged, the majority that were cut (languagues) were poorly executed. I agree on the guild restrictions being good. And I did miss the random quests, and the climbing skill.

And nothing (landscapes, towns, dungeons) in DF was created on the fly either, it was all pre-generated and saved in the game files - just like Oblivion.

I have read enough of your posts to know that they did not develop TES in the direction you wanted. I also wanted them to do an even bigger Daggerfall, but where everything had purpose, and didn't look generic, and quests would all be exiting and different, and language skills would actually allow you to translate true spoken spriggan... but how realistic is that? Still, its simply not true that they just cut and simplified, and its not true for Oblivion either - one should also acknowledge the things they added.

 

[Twinfalls]

I think I mentioned i don't agree with every decision? By the way the decision making was extremely poor in DF, the "multiple endings" a sorry excuse for nonlinearity. so not much to build on there.

Once again, it's the concept - how poor it may have been in DF (and the MQ was to most who played both games better in DF than MW) is not relevant. Multiple endings, non-linearity was striven for by the Daggerfall devs, and not by the MW devs.

The guilds were and are improved upon in that they actually convey some sort of stories, a life within the guild, instead of just being quest dipensers.

You must be joking. Morrowind guild quests had life? Not in my build.

The majority of the skills did not get cut but merged, the majority that were cut (languagues) were poorly executed.

As above re non-linearity

I have read enough of your posts to know that they did not develop TES in the direction you wanted. I also wanted them to do an even bigger Daggerfall, but where everything had purpose, and didn't look generic, and quests would all be exiting and different, and language skills would actually allow you to translate true spoken spriggan... but how realistic is that? Still, its simply not true that they just cut and simplified, and its not true for Oblivion either - one should also acknowledge the things they added.

Look. There's no doubt they've made some very promising changes with Oblivion which hark back to Daggerfall - guild perks spring to mind. The expanded effects of skill percentages is also a new direction which sounds creative and good.

There was plenty that was very good in Morrowind - the art direction and style was superb, and a brave decision to go 'alien' and unique. The expansion of lore was excellent.

But until we play Oblivion, I simply will not make any assumptions. Bethesda have only themselves to blame for the cynicism of many Daggerfall fans. If they hadn't hyped Morrowind with 'this will be what Daggerfall would have been if technical limitations weren't an issue' and with Fargoth's Gold, etc, people would be more forgiving.

 

[Twinfalls]

Crap!
I'd really like to ride my horse wherever I want to.

Fear not, ProZac - Kathode's response:

They (apparently) got it backwards. Horses are for outside.

 

[Chefe]

They should bring back Daggerfall's way of storing a horse in your pocket.

I really wanted to whip it out in the Imperial Castle.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Crap!
I'd really like to ride my horse wherever I want to.

Fear not, ProZac - Kathode's response:

They (apparently) got it backwards. Horses are for outside.

Thanks for the update.
If the feature is not already present, I hope a mod will do the magic of making horses rideable (sp!) inside cities too.

 

[Chefe]

If the feature is not already present, I hope a mod will do the magic of making horses rideable (sp!) inside cities too.

OH NOES!!! YOU'LL BREAK TEH GAME!!!!!!!!111!!!!!111111oneoneone

NPC: "What the fuck? WHY IS THAT KNIGHT RIDING A HORSE INSIDE THE CITY?"
Guard: "Oh shit! Automatic forced dismount feature failed! What could be going on??"

*PC rides through town on a steed*

NPCs: "GOD HELP UP ALL!! AUGHHHHH!!!"


No horses inside cities, forced reloads.... what's next? Can't pull out your weapon inside houses? (psst... maybe they're saving that feature for TESV!)

 

[Kraszu]

NPC: "What the fuck? WHY IS THAT KNIGHT RIDING A HORSE INSIDE THE CITY?"
Guard: "Oh shit! Automatic forced dismount feature failed! What could be going on??"

*PC rides through town on a steed*

NPCs: "GOD HELP UP ALL!! AUGHHHHH!!!"

WOW Radiant.